French Immigration Minister, Eric Besson
What is going on in Europe? Some have postulated that Europe is going through an identity crisis that challenges the core universal values that it trumpets, while others like the more conservative populists warn of a transformation of Europe at the hands of barbaric Muslim hordes remaking Europe into a Eurabia.
The dialogue has gotten heated, and we have seen a rise in neo-fascist and Euro-supremacist groups who are leading Europe into a dangerous direction of greater Islamophobia. This dialogue has a way of polluting reality which then effects mainstream parties who see this rise in anti-Muslim sentiment and for political gain drop their universal values and resort to cheap populist rhetoric.
At the same time that Muslims across Europe are integrated into their countries and identify with their nations to a greater extent than their fellow citizens, it seems their fellow citizens view them increasingly with suspicion (with the exception of Britain). This has lead to initiatives that are truly shocking to anyone who believes in Democracy, such as the recent ban on minarets in Switzerland which has echoed across Europe, from Italy to Denmark with parties such as the Northern League and Geert Wilders saying they will follow suit.
Recently France has been the scene of some of the most strident Islamophobia, and moves that from the perspective of an outsider smack of an attack on Democracy. We have heard of the desecration’s of Mosques and Muslim graves, but this has all happened in light of statements like this from French junior minister Nadine Morano,
In one of the many local debates scheduled to be held as part of the nationwide discussion on what it means to be French, the junior minister for families, Nadine Morano, suggested Tuesday to a young Muslim that he should change his behaviour. “What I want of a young Muslim is that he loves France when he lives here, finds work and does not speak in slang. And that he doesn’t wear his cap back to front.”
This discussion follows an earlier discussion around the niqab, or full face veil that a small minority of Muslim women wear in France. If you recall, Nicholas Sarkozy inaugurated the first presidential address to France’s parliament in decades with a call to ban the niqab.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s party, the UMP, says it will push for a law banning the full-face Islamic veil, according to its parliamentary leader Jean-François Copé.
“The issue is not how many women wear the burqa,” Copé wrote in an article in the right-wing newspaper Le Figaro. “There are principles at stake: extremists are putting the republic to the test by promoting a practice that they know is contrary to the basic principles of our country.”
It seems the principles of the French Republic do not include women choosing to wear what they want. Banning the niqab is not enough, just yesterday the French Immigration minister Eric Besson said that he wants to make it law that women who wear the face veil be denied citizenship and residency cards.
France’s immigration minister said Wednesday that he wants the wearing of Muslim veils that cover the face and body to be grounds for denying citizenship and long-term residence.
Eric Besson said he planned to take “concrete measures” regarding such veils, which are worn by a small minority of women in France but have become the object of a parliamentary inquiry into whether a ban should be imposed. Besson spoke during a hearing before the panel of lawmakers as their nearly six-month inquiry draws to a close.
Besson said he believed a formal ban on veils that cover the face and body seemed to him “unavoidable,” with a ban in public services as a minimum step. Whether such veils are banned or not, he said he intends to personally move forward to ensure that women wearing such veils and seeking French nationality or residence cards are denied.
“I want the wearing of the full veil to be systematically considered as proof of insufficient integration into French society, creating an obstacle to gaining (French) nationality,” he said. He said he would advise prefects, the highest state representative in the various French regions, that the wearing of such veils is a motive for not delivering 10-year residence cards.
Besson said he was prepared to put the measures before parliament to make them law. In November, Besson ordered a nationwide debate on the French identity, to conclude by the end of January with possible measures.
This raises a whole number of questions: what about those French women who were born in France, whether descended from immigrants or indigenous who have taken up the veil, will they have their citizenship revoked? What if a woman immigrated to France but didn’t wear a veil but decided to wear one since, will she be denied citizenship?
These anti-Democratic measures have opened a pandora’s box of bigotry and racism that is leading Europe into an essentialized discourse that doesn’t bode very well for the future, as one French Law maker said, “This brings back the ethnic vision of the nation, the one that took place at (the pro-Nazi puppet government of) Vichy.”
December 17th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
NICE DUCK!
LOONS!
Let’s remember ducks are not to blame. j/k
December 17th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
What the hell is so great about French culture? No offense to any French LW readers, but is it so important to preserve it that certain people who follow a certain religion must stripped of their desires? I know tons of Muslim women who want to wear the full face veil. My mom would rather cut her hands off then take off the hijab. My dad doesn’t force her. How is this any different than ethnic cleansing???
December 17th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
again, what about all the women who wear a veil but are a) not religious, b) no Muslim, c) Jewish, d) Christian, e) etc etc
December 17th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I think it very simple ,firstly in France as opposed to Britain, there is no intergration or multicultural aim . You have to be French . There is no ethnic monitoring because everyone has to be French . Speak french very well dressed , everyone the same IE Rich . anyone who does not go along with this is obviously not French or worthy of respect or English
What the polititians dont want to speak about is the poor economic situation. So they point over there saying look these people are not French. It avoids questions on the economic situation.
December 17th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
This article omits the fact that France also had an issue with the hijab, they banned it from schools. This is the exact opposite of Iran and Saudi Arabia, two non-Democratic countries. The Republic of France will say with confidence it knows itself, but it doesn’t and has some real issues to deal with that it would rather sweep under the carpet.
On another note,
I couldn’t agree more with Shawn Johnston, don’t blame the ducks!
December 17th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
NICE DUCK indeed. I love it. Ha.
The poor things are getting a bad reputation from Loonwatch.
Europe, my belief is, will be fine and will overcome the forces who sow bigotry and hate. My experience with them has been they are mostly rational and peace loving, this small vocal cadre of haters can never become a majority voice, that is what I hope. Initiatives like this in France and Switzerland have to be defeated by engagement with society, and letting them know their culture and values are not threatened by architecture of a piece of clothing.
December 17th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Can you spell Caliphate? I hope I have. You haven’t seen the vids of radical Muslims in front of Buckingham Palace screaming that within a few years there will be a Muslim Prime Minister, that Sharia law will be the law of the land and the Queen will be out? These are the kinds of fears that the radicals want to instill in Europeans. They are being successful.
In Europe, the numbers are there. Norway, Holland, Belgium and England will shortly have Muslims as the majority population. Now in the middle east, do you see European Christians building Churches? No but you do see Palistinian muslims diging up the graves of Christians and getting the bodies out of their area because they are defiling their soil.
Things have gone pretty far down the road over there and face it, some interpret the Koran to say that Muslims cannot and may not live with the infidel.
Muslims in Europe are a threat to the ancient cultures there. Think about what would happen if Europeans had moved to Palestine and built a church?
A counterpart to this would be the anti-semitism that is on the rise in Europe - especially in France. Now there is something Europe and their Muslim population will agree on. What is the world coming to?
Europeans will be no more in another 200 years. Cut them a break, will ya?
December 17th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
PS
You are out after hatemongers. Do you ever see some of them as just plain people who are driven by fear? I find this to be true in other areas of conflict as well.
Thanks for letting me speak!
December 17th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
French junior minister for familes Nadine Morano —
“What I want of a young Muslim is that he loves France when he lives here, finds work and does not speak in slang. And that he doesn’t wear his cap back to front.”
Lovely. How can one tell?
http://www.partydomain.co.uk/d-commerce/media/main/1/11484.jpg
That’s a mallard.
Use this next time –
http://www.unbf.ca/forestry/centers/cwru/soe/loon4.jpg
I enjoyed your article. But I’m not panicking just yet. These people are always stepping on their own toes.
December 17th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
When Islam came to be known through Makkah the non-Muslims got scared and tried to stop it through means of war, torture, killing them etc. You see my point? Europe will only repeat history if they try to rid of the Muslims. Europe is scared of the spread of Islam and Muslims. Just like the non-Muslims were scared of the spread of Islam during the Prophet time. Yes some want to take over Europe (which is stupid) and a lot just want to live there.
I see your point. Look, you want to move to the middle east and worship there? Go ahead. But before you go, can you please tell Israel and the US to stop invading Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Oh and maybe can you tell them to lay off Iran because Israel and the US have tons of nukes which threatens the very existence of Palestine? My point is: in the Prophet Muhammad’s time the Muslims and the non-Muslims lived side by side. Even after the Prophet passed away there still were churches and all. It’s all cultural this kind of stuff. A Jewish funeral was passing by and the Prophet stood up out of respect. The disciples baffled asked him why did he stand up for the Jew? The Prophet told his disciples “he was still a human” the hatred all stems from culture. Honor killing is one major and sad point of culture.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Eric Besson’s mother is Lebanese and his father is Egyptian-Lebanese, it seems he like Sarkozy who is A Greek-Hungarian Jew are turning nasty French in order to make up for their own immigrant non-French background. Same complex for anti-immigrant loon Geert Wilders who is part indonesian. So sad and pitiful.
December 17th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
It seems that Eric Besson is nasty in more ways than one:
French immigration minister Eric Besson exposed by wife as a ’serial cheat with interchangeable mistresses’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1219836/Immigration-minister-Eric-Besson-exposed-wife-serial-cheat-interchangeable-mistresses.html#ixzz0a1RBRdUo
Clearly a character that cannot be trusted.
December 18th, 2009 at 6:04 am
Reply to reply to SamHenry
The Israel/US actions in the Middle East cloud the issue. Zionists are as bad as extreme Muslims. Sadly, extremists always make the most noise and carry the day because of it. They know this. I say a pox on both of their houses.
Even today, there are Palestinians and Jews who CAN live side by side and have a wish to. Again, it is the extremists on both sides exacerbating the situation.
None of us is perfect. For example, just about every culture has had slaves in one century or other. Every culture has had warmongers among them which is why I say the Israeli/US stance in the Middle East clouds the issue.
Iran is not not Arab. The Persians have a long and rich history. I have a Persian friend (she prefers to be called Persian) who tells me there is a mass of people in Iran who do not want war; who do not want to live in a theocracy.
Like Iraq, Iran now has a leader who wants to blow Israel off the map and the US as well. Their missiles are trained at the US bases in Europe. In this situation, it is militant muslims against militants in Israel and the US.
I have studied the Arts and culture of the Arabs and Persians. My cousin is the world expert on Mughal paintings and other art and is a former Director of the Freer and Sackler Galleries at the Smithsonian. I sat next to an Arab woman in the Detroit airport, living in this country. She looked down at me as being uneducated about her culture and got defensive. Here again, she was thinking of stereotypes of European Americans.
The Taliban blew up the collosal Buddhas in Afghanistan (I think they were in Afghanistan) for cultural and religious reasons. This is lack of respect for the ancient culture of that land. I read recently where Asians in China and elsewhere as as worried as the Europeans about this attitude and action. Murder of a culture is also bad. This “murder” happened within their own borders.
Long before Israel/US stance, there were not many churches in the middle East. You have to go to Turkey to find more of them in a Muslim culture that is part of Europe.
We could go on and on about cultural differences that lead to war. You don’t see many Europeans living in Asia either. They are as unwelcome as in Arab countries.
The Swiss are not denying mosques; they are denying Minarets that stand out over and against the look of Swiss villages that have been there for centuries. They want to keep that identity.
Here in the US, Latinos are here in such numbers that they will soon be the majority. Vincente Fox said that “we can take back America without firing a shot. We just have to send waves of people there.” That is what is going on in Europe. Waves of people have quietly used democracy to take over whole countries. It is a cultural war. People will instinctively protect their culture.
I am able to respect Arab and Persian culture (I played the cello and that instrument dates back to the (I forget the exact word) the rebab in Arab countries. But I don’t want it to eradicate mine. People like the Nazi Dutchman who is being very racial rather than cultural is an example of another kind of fear. But again, the root cause is, as you say, a war of cultures.
Europeans are aware that many Arabs want to return to the area of their old conquests and to expand the Caliphate. Fears in this arena are based on remembrance of past conflicts.
I will say this about the Crusaders that most Arabs have not forgot. No one had seen the chalice. They went searching for something that probably did not exist.
Imperial European powers in the past 400 years have been naive about what they see as backward cultures. They see these as if they are in a curiosity shop there for there for their study and suppression. I think whole cultures can be naive.
In conclusion, aside from attitude on BOTH sides about the superiority of their culture, most on both sides would protect theirs from being eradicated. The militants in Britain will one day blow up an historic monument in Britain to make a point just as the jihadists drove planes into the twin towers at 9/11. Sadly, I don’t think Americans will ever recover from this. Because of this, I would rather see the Chinese take over this country than the Muslims and you cannot blame me or others. The Chinese may want to rule the world but they do not want to change the cultures where they go. We agree on one thing: cultures are important and people will die to defend them. I do not want to see the books in our great libraries suffer the same fate as the fire at the great library at Alexandria that took out a large part of the History of a great culture. And you will agree that a lot of US money has gone to protect monuments there such as the temples that were to be unnundated at Aswan. Europeans may drag off cultural objects from the region but they preserved them and study the culture. Think about the obelisk in Place de Conchord in Paris, sadly melting away from air pollution.
Again thank you for letting me speak here. I have tried to be honest and forthright about a moderate’s views in my culture. I do not want to fight anybody. I just want me and my culture to be left alone.
December 18th, 2009 at 6:18 am
PS - re the time of the Prophet. This knowledge is possible because of your respect for and knowledge of history. One of the big problems today is a lack of knowledge of history in all cultures. People don’t take advantage of their electronic devices to learn. They want to play games.
Speaking of the Latinos, their sense of entitlement to all of the Americas is that their history is one of native and European intermarriage. The native heritage goes back thousands of years and they feel they can go anywhere without regard to borders. I just wrote a piece about it. To know this is to understand them and what they believe. But again, Europeans here, do not even know about this. Who is doing all of the talking about cultures here- European Americans and Latinos. I think it is important to listen to who is really talking. Black Americans don’t like Latinos but they are not as politically outspoken about it. Latino and Black gangs fight each other.
When you say “America” I am sure you realize the diversity of cultures here. But again, you have to identify who is talking. Now the militant voice is heard and any Muslim voice is new to this and I think is jarring to some people. It will be a learning curve.
December 18th, 2009 at 6:19 am
I think I remember that the ancestor of the cello in Arabia was the rebec. It is the ancestor of all Chinese stringed instruments, primarily the uhuru (spelling?) which a Chinese orchestra let me play.+-
December 18th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Me again. I culturally and religious-wise want to identify myself. I am primarily of British heritage - England, Scotland and Ireland with some Dutch. In religion I am a lapsed protestant.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Can somebody explain why all these creeps are blocking the street?
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/xbinl5
December 18th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Zingel says:
“we have seen a rise in neo-fascist and Euro-supremacist groups who are leading Europe into a dangerous direction of greater Islamophobia.”
No they are not. These groups did not create anti-Islam sentiment, and it would be a big mistake to think they did. The essential problem is that a large section of the population rejects the presence of Islam. Politicians like Geert Wilders are no more than the political voice of these people. They are not leading them. Groups such as SIOE and the EDL (which are often tiny) did not create these people either.
Much of Zingel’s post, and the links, are taken from Islamophobia Watch, the British website. It is a useful compilation of UK news reports, but they are dependent on English-language sources, and they have an axe to grind. The website is linked to the British Labour Party, and it promotes the Labour government policy of forced cultural assimilation of Muslim minorities (in fact of all minorities). Possibly it may be funded through Labour or government sources. (Incidenatally, the Open Society research which you quote, is of course funded by George Soros, and it has a similar political agenda).
So you ought to be careful of their claims regarding integration. They are cherry-picking the sources, to promote their idea that Muslims in Europe want nothing else. The reality is that Muslim minorities in western Europe are generally not integrated, and they can’t integrate anyway, because the indigenous population doesn’t want them to.
So issue is rather the opposite of what Zingel suggests. If you read this post, you would think that millions of Muslim immigrants have successfully integrated in European nations over the last decades, and now suddenly right-wing politicians have turned on them. In reality, there has never been a process of integration, and the immigrant Muslims minorities have always been considered foreigners. Their religion was always considered alien - but that was not so much of an issue, when there were only a handful of Muslims, and no visible mosques.
I would not claim that attitudes to Islam and immigration have remained 100% fixed in the last 25 years. However, the ‘integration’ issue is not recent, it has been there all the time. A Muslim from North Africa who arrived in France or Germany in 1965, was a foreigner with a foreign religion. That has never changed, neither for the first-generation immigrants, or for their children and grandchildren who grew up in France and Germany, and speak the national language. There is no ‘melting pot’ in Europe (and it does not seem to work for Muslims in the USA either).
The general assumption from the 1960’s onward, was that the immigrants would become part of the wider society, and that any initial hostility would some governments like to pretend it did. Relations between indigenous populations and immigrants have got worse and worse. The constantly deteriorating relations, between Muslims and indigenous non-Muslims, are part of that pattern.
The tensions in western Europe between Muslims and the indigenous population result from the immigration of Muslims, it is as simple as that. All tensions between immigrants and the indigenous population result from immigration. Always. If there were no immigrants, there would be no tensions or conflicts with them. Several European states did succeed in achieving zero immigration, before the Second World War. The resulting mono-ethnic, mono-cultural, mono-lingual society is what many people wanted. Mass immigration did kill it off. Tensions are inevitable under these historical circumstances.
So why can’t they all just … get along? Because the indigenous population doesn’t want to. It is no use saying, for instance, “all Swiss voters ought to be tolerant and welcoming”. Some of them are not, that is the reality, certainly for the coming decades. Electoral successes, of anti-Islam parties and policies, simply reflect this widespread hostility to Islam. Again, they are not the result of manipulation by individuals and groups, or by the media.
So the “anti-Democratic measures” listed in the post have not “opened a pandora’s box of bigotry and racism”. The bigotry and racism were there already, in fact they pre-date the arrival of Muslim immigrants. They are not leading Europe toward an “ethnic vision of the nation” because Europe is already there, and has been since about 1800. That applies to France too. And anti-Islam measures are perfectly democratic, if the majority wants them, which they probably do, in most western European countries.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Unfortunately here in Europe we’re going once again down with the same old Fascism of the 30’s. I wouldnt be surprised if it even comes to concentration camps for muslims. Here in Italy an activist of the Norther League (Lega Nord) some weeks ago proposed that muslims should be “recognizable” in some way by non-muslim citizens. We all know that in Nazi Germany Jews had to wear a yellow David’s star to make themselves recognizable as Jews, i wouldnt be surprised if 20 years from now the same policy will be applied to Muslims, like wearing a green crescent or something like that. I have no doubt in my mind that if they have a referendum asking the general European population if they would approve such measure, most (around 55-60% percent) would approve. Here in Italy maybe it would be even more that 60%, as this country has been brainwashed by two of the biggest islamophobes of the world, Oriana Fallaci and Magdi Allam (this last one for some time pretended to be a Muslim, then in a spectacular way “converted” to Christianity, receiving the baptism in national television from none other than our ex-Hitler Youth and now-Neocon Pope, Joseph Ratzinger).
December 18th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
@ Dolly:
Those “creeps” (you’re the only creep here), are probably “blocking the street” because they were not authorized to have a Mosque, so they’re forced to pray in the middle of the street. But i guess your poor-excuse for-a-brain is not able to understand this.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Zingel, thank you for this article. France has a 10% Muslim population, and whilst a lot are successful, (Zinadine Zidane comes to mind) there is an underclass in France, which refuses to integrate, has low employment rates and high crime. The problem isn’t soley a Muslim one i hasten to add, but they do tend to hog the limelight a bit. France hasn’t integrated her minorities as well as England and other countries. I blame the French society as it is partly for this, because they should do more to help instead of ghettoising people.
Perhap’s their interior Minister should go and spend time in the USA and learn how to integrate minorities better.
Sam Henry
I presume there is a point to your rambling? From what i gather you seem to be saying “let us keep our culture intact”
Let me remind you that there would probably not be any immigration if the European countries over the centuries had not colonised and plundered the resources of their colonies.
A cynic would be inclined to retort, that is rich coming from a European, whose continent plundered, raped, pillaged much of the world over many centuries, and enforced European culture on others, to every corner of the globe.
An even more bitter cynic would retort “What goes around, comes around”.
December 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
@Samhenry, hmmm apparently Latinos all think a like; seriously spare us the xenophobia.
December 18th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
How bad has it gotten in France?
They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are conveniently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.
What are they?
Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.
__________________________________________________________________________
……A cynic would be inclined to retort, that is rich coming from a European, whose continent plundered, raped, pillaged much of the world over many centuries, and enforced European culture on others, to every corner of the globe.
An even more bitter cynic would retort “What goes around, comes around”.
…………
What goes around comes around!!! Ah, there is that inner muslims coming out again! You just admitted to the very idea you claim is false - a coming Eurabia!
December 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Pamela Geller, AKA Lou don’t you have enough filth to spew at your own website that you have and read every letter, word and thought here?
I’d ask you to find yourself a nice man, but I wouldn’t wish you upon any man..so go and buy yourself a dildo and vibrator with lots of batteries and quit this website.
We don’t need crap like you here. This is a decent website with classy posts, not the crap you write at yours.
December 18th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Lou i dont understand your post, are you talking to yourself ?
Theres no “eurabia” coming, just like the was no “United States of Italy” coming when italian immigrants were flooding into the US, starting mafia gangs there, and being the baddest criminals around. The NY Times was used to call them “Italian Scum” and saying that they should be deported back to Italy.
And why are you copy/pasting crapola taken from Daniel “The Loon Master” Pipes ?
There wont be any “Eurabia” simply because Arabs are a small minority of the Muslim world, and most of them live in fairly secular countries, like Lebanon, Siria, Jordan, etc.etc. Plus the vast bulk of immigrants in Europe are from the former Soviet republics, most of them are Orthodox Christians.
But all of this will never penetrate into your thick skull, as you have been brainwashed by years of islamophobic propaganda by the mass media, so you will never be able to have an independent and coherent thought by yourself on this matter, and, i assume, on anything at all…
December 18th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Wait a minute Lou is Pamela geller??
December 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
“An even more bitter cynic would retort “What goes around, comes around”
Then by that logic the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan are ‘payback’ for islamic atrocities (ie the Bulgarians massacred by the Ottoman forces), see how silly that post of yours is?
December 18th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Quite to the contrary, AF, all that I know has derived from the koran, hadith and sura - the ideology of islam. How could I not know it, for I am an infidel, a kafir, an unbeliever, and I have read. Facts are facts, truth is truth. This is what I know.
As for Nabeela, enough filth to spew? I merely question what you pose as fact, and provide alternative points of reference. I dont use foul language, and I dont like you resort to name calling. When one resorts to name calling, I guess thats pretty much giving up now isnt it?
If you dont like the facts, if they dont fit with your worldview, then maybe you should be asking questions about your beliefs. And oh, I am a middle aged male causasian FYI.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
The literate part of Lou’s post is simply a paste from one of Daniel Pipe’s efforts — 3 years ago.
In fact, this article from the french Wikipedia [translated] describes them as areas defined under law as requiring special assistance — eg tax breaks, training programs, anti delinquency programs etc.
Two subclasses mentioned –
– “areas of urban renewal (ZRU) are characterized by high unemployment, a large proportion of non-graduates and low fiscal capacity.”
– “the zones urbaines (ZFU) ZRU are larger than 8 500 residents who need assistance the most important. Companies expanding into the country receiving aid incentives.” [did I mention that this was a translation?]
The idea that these districts are beyond state control [in France !!] is risible
December 18th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
@nabeela - If you read my ramblings correctly, I made your same points. That is what I meant by the uselessness of chasing a chalice no one knew existed and of my view that the imperial powers had naive views of other cultures.
We will not go further if we insult each other. I now know this site exists to insult those who you deem are unreasonable about Muslims. I have been honest and open and you have been insulting. I think my time is wasted here. I am not begging to be hit over the head. You could change minds if you were other than you are being now. I am sorry for it. It is a disappointment. I like to debate with people who are truly into debate not into tearing down others. I try to use my education in positive ways. Apparently I cannot do so here for everything I say is assessed as being racist in some way. Oh, well, I did try. I opened the dialogue.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Cassidy - I am not a Latino - I am sorry that you have a low opinion of them. Half of their background goes back 40,000 years in the Americas. I am sorry you do not have something more substantial to add to our conversation. I will not return to this forum. It is a group who do not wish to build understanding; just to tear down those with whom they think they disagree. Cassidy, you cannot be older than about 25 - am I right? Live long; talk much with others; learn much. Good luck.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
I thought this was a site where one could learn how myths about Islam were debunked. I now learn it is a trap for European flies who want to learn more and talk with you. Think about what you are doing. You could have such a forceful effect on the net as an educational tool not as, well what you are doing. You are all knowledgeable. But one cannot learn from those hitting them over the head for what they are saying. I hope you will see I mean to be helpful in saying this. Good-bye all.
December 19th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Sam Henry,
The point that you were making could have been summed up in one paragraph, not about 5 posts. THAT was what I meant. Oh and please, we both know that you will continue to read this thread, so do away with your self pitying emotional goodbye and the sacrificial self martyredom.
Lou
“And oh, I am a middle aged male causasian FYI”
I don’t believe you…unless.. you’re not Daniel Pipes are you? Or Spencer?
the zeal with which you pop up in every thread and savour every response looking for something to use against the members, suggests an interest way above the ordinay if you’re not here to combat Islamophobia… You are one of the Loons we expose here, probably with “Dolly” as your alter ego. I bet you and Dolly are hand in glove and are both Spencer and Geller.
Cassidy
“Then by that logic the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan are ‘payback’ for islamic atrocities (ie the Bulgarians massacred by the Ottoman forces), see how silly that post of yours is?”
As usual your logic is skewered because neither Afghanistan or Iraq were invaded for payback. Afghanistan was invaded to cap Al Qaeda, and Iraq was invaded because of FABRICATED proof of WOMD.
The point of my post was that the immigrants in France, had their own countries colonised by France (and other European countries). Europe forced her culture upon her colonies, even though it was unwelcome and most had to fight to get rid of the colonisers. The immigrants in Europe are mainly from the former colonies of the countries that they tried to force their culture upon. French Muslims are mainly from Algeria, Morocco, Tunis, Africa, under former French colonial rule, often cruel. Look at King Leopold’s treatment of the Congolese black people.
Anyone who looks at the situation today objectively could state that it is poetic justice, “what goes around, comes around” and make sense because India, Africa and other colonies had to fight to get rid of imperial powers out to loot and plunder their resources and trying to force their culture upon them.
There is no comparing that to say…Bulgarians being massacared by Ottomans, as you said, unless Bulgaria colonises Ottomans and then starts massacring them. Then you could perhap’s say “what goes around comes around” What you are saying makes no sense nor is there any link but that is per the norm for you isn’t it Cassidy?
and why havn’t you found yourself a forum like I suggested instead of asking more and more people here to debate you offline? I had to giggle when I read Nissa’s response to you.. Do you think we are here for that? We can go to forum’s to debate.
You’re wasting your time. I don’t know why you’re wanting to debate people here by email, when we are here to combat Islamophobia.
To the other members here,
I’d ask you to be vigilante, as I think Cassidy is here to harvest IP addresses for one or more of the loons that Loonwatch exposes. He/she has a habit of going off topic, then asking regular posters here to debate offline. As if there are not millions of forums on the internet for “debate”. So why would he be so desperate to debate the members here?
I may be wrong of course, but websites online have been sabotaged and forced to go offline by determined saboteurs, and their members have had their emails hacked without them knowing.
So all of you…please be careful.
December 19th, 2009 at 4:18 am
Lou,
“Ah, there is that inner muslims coming out again! You just admitted to the very idea you claim is false - a coming Eurabia!”
Since you bring up the subject of “Eurabia”
Some of my Jewish friends have said to me “Eurabia” would be just deserts for a Europe that tried so hard to eliminate the Jewish religion, culture and people over the centuries.
What are your comments on that?
December 19th, 2009 at 8:26 am
I will not be tracking this site following answers to my last post. I do not care if you can track my IP address. I can very well see that trolls have visited this site. I am who and what I say that I am, SamHenry. I am sorry that it has made you defensive. I do not have diverse identities on line. I have no time for that. It gets you nowhere. I am aware when I go online that if people take the time, they can track you down. The threat of your doing so defines your character,not mine. I have no desire to unmask you, only to exchange ideas. I do read things on sites you have mentioned you abhor but again, it is to get a different view. I do have a star of David on my site these days in the Spirit of the Danish people who were vocal in defense of Jews. They are leaving France in large numbers and even here there are blatant incidents in anti-semitism growing. Jews are the canary in the mineshaft. What happens to them can happen to any group in society that is singled out for advanced forms of persecution. Muslims and Christians have experienced this at the hands of each other. It is wrong whenever and wherever it is practiced.
Nabeeda - I do ramble but when has the ramblings of an old person been cause not to be civil and listen? I don’t think my words here have been anything other than ideas I wished to have you respond to with other ideas. I have always blogged with people of diverse opinions. That is how you grow. I can tolerate any debate as long as it does not resort to ad hominum debate tactic. That does not get anyone anywhere. It diverts attention from the subject and is often a sign of last resort and great anger. I should not have to be subjected to that. I am not here to suffer for the sins of all European Americans. Finally, I learn the most from the voices of the people of other countries, not the press. I have heard your voice and take your stance to heart. I have put my finger on the pulse of a certain group and that is important - at least to me.
I am of an academic bent and am always continuing my learning curve. I have two advanced degrees one in Library and information science.
Any one of you can contact me at SHblogger@yahoo.com. If I do a post on Muslims at samandimp.wordpress.com, I will let your comment stand if it is civil. I believe in freedom of speech. My moderation policy is to let that happen whenever possible.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Cassidy, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were pretext for oil. They are also to establish bases of operation against the growing union of Russia and China and Iran. This is my belief. THE PEOPLE in the US are prone to be isolationist. They were in WWII until attacked. More people than you know here hate the wars in the Middle East and we ended the war in Viet Nam.
I agreed with you about the Imperial Colonist powers when I said they were Imperial and Naive. I also know that the Algerians are in France because of colonialism and for other reasons such as jobs.
Payback is somewhat a part of invasions but remember they often hide other agendas as they do now. Iran took back one of the disputed oil wells yesterday. It was probably not to heat homes but to achieve energy independence in time of war. But I cannot read their minds!
December 20th, 2009 at 5:34 am
“As usual your logic is skewered because neither Afghanistan or Iraq were invaded for payback. Afghanistan was invaded to cap Al Qaeda, and Iraq was invaded because of FABRICATED proof of WOMD.”
No that’s not it, my point is that if Europeans deserve ‘payback’ then surely Muslim do, after all Muslim history is not exactly pure.
“Anyone who looks at the situation today objectively could state that it is poetic justice, “what goes around, comes around” and make sense because India, Africa and other colonies had to fight to get rid of imperial powers out to loot and plunder their resources and trying to force their culture upon them.”
Then surely the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are ‘poetic justice’ due to muslim conquests?
“There is no comparing that to say…Bulgarians being massacared by Ottomans, as you said, unless Bulgaria colonises Ottomans and then starts massacring them. Then you could perhap’s say “what goes around comes around” What you are saying makes no sense nor is there any link but that is per the norm for you isn’t it Cassidy?”
You’re missing my point, by your logic the colonization of muslim countries were justified since muslims also colonized certain countries.
“and why havn’t you found yourself a forum like I suggested instead of asking more and more people here to debate you offline?”
How do you know I’m not already on some forums?
“I had to giggle when I read Nissa’s response to you.”
I probably missed that, it’s a bit hard to keep up with comments on this site.
“Do you think we are here for that? We can go to forum’s to debate.”
Certainly, what board would you prefer?
“You’re wasting your time. I don’t know why you’re wanting to debate people here by email, when we are here to combat Islamophobia.”
Well it’s simple, I don’t like to leave arguments unfinished and since Danios asked me to stop I thought the polite thing to do would be to invite the two of you to privately debate with me.
“I’d ask you to be vigilante, as I think Cassidy is here to harvest IP addresses for one or more of the loons that Loonwatch exposes. He/she has a habit of going off topic, then asking regular posters here to debate offline. As if there are not millions of forums on the internet for “debate”. So why would he be so desperate to debate the members here?”
That is a baseless paranoid accusation without any facts to back it up, I get it you don’t want to debate with me, that’s fine but try to avoid demonizing someone and I haven’t been desperate about it I’ve invited only a few members to argue with me. And you have also gone off topic a few times, does that mean that you’re part of a muslim conspiracy? Plus I don’t support any of the loons you mentioned and I certainly don’t appreciate being lumped in with them. Not to mention you’re giving them waaay too much credit Geller probably can’t spell id address and spencer is probably too busy checking under his bed for moooslims to organize a massive IP address gathering conspriacy.
December 20th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Cassidy seems to think all Muslims are one homogeneous group of hive minds or something.
Why should I as a British Muslim of Pakistani and Indian descent think it would be OK for someone to invade Pakistan because of past atrocities the Turks may have committed?
Those Muslim conquests you referred to already did get their ‘payback’- colonialism in the middle east and north africa not mean anything to you? The occupation and division of the Ottoman lands….Or does that not count? How long do we keep score for exactly?
‘Muslim’ history is made of millions of people, events and contexts. Nabeela referred to Europe having to deal with its recent colonial past, something it still refuses to do with any real commitment, especially France. It is a barrier to people feeling comfortable about having Muslims in their countries because we are seen as ‘the other’ despite the fact that we share cultural commonalities with the European countried because of colonisation…we had contact with Europeans as authorities, the Europeans never had to deal with us as equals and now that we are citizens, and us second and third generations want more than our parents got they can’t seem to grasp that without a major moral panic….
December 20th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Cassidy
“You’re missing my point, by your logic the colonization of muslim countries were justified since muslims also colonized certain countries.”
That was not the reason the Europeans colonised Asia Africa and the Mid East, besides, much of Africa wasn’t Muslim, nor Asia. Did pagan Africa set out to colonise Europe before she got her resources plundered? did Indonesia? did India? Top prize for ignorance, Cassidy.
The Muslim conquests were to spread the faith, as in those days you couldn’t do Dawa any other way.
The European conquests were to expand empires for wealth, and to loot or plunder resources from whereever they went.
Don’t bring religion into this. Only the Crusades were for religious reasons, the Christians wanted the Holy Land out of Jewish or Muslim contro. The European conquests of Asia, Africa and the Mid East had nothing to do with religion they were merely to expand empires, besides there was no unification between christian Europe. They were fighting with each other for their empires, (england, france, spain, holland, belgium were all competing with each other) there was no unified Christian conquest, so your comparison is stupid and riduculous. The massacred Africans were often Christians themselves.
Besides for 800 years Europe got most of her knowledge from the Islamic kingdoms so they had no reason to have a grudge against the Muslims.
Stop grasping at straws. There is no comparing the Islamic conquests to the European ones, even European history records the European conquests as barbaric and not benefetting their colonies.
You argue just for the sake of arguing, you don’t have any real knowledge of history, especially Islamic one.
Cassidy go away. You clog up the board with nonsense, and we have to waste time rebutting your garbage, simply because we cannot let it stand without a rebuttal.
You are a nuisance, and a most unwelcome diversion.
YOU RARELY COMMENT ON THE SUBECT OF THE ARTICLE, but you wait till someone says something that you can write a story about and then bore us with nonsense which we then have to rebut.
GO AWAY CASSIDY. PACK YOUR BAGS. OUT.
December 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pm
@Nissa, I wasn’t trying to justify the invasions at all, I merely pointed out how absurd ‘payback’ arguments are and I certainly don’t view muslims as one hive mind.
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:49 am
“That was not the reason the Europeans colonised Asia Africa and the Mid East, besides, much of Africa wasn’t Muslim, nor Asia. Did pagan Africa set out to colonise Europe before she got her resources plundered? did Indonesia? did India? Top prize for ignorance, Cassidy.”
I didn’t say it was, I brought it up to point how absurd your ‘payback’ argument was.
“Don’t bring religion into this. Only the Crusades were for religious reasons, the Christians wanted the Holy Land out of Jewish or Muslim contro. The European conquests of Asia, Africa and the Mid East had nothing to do with religion they were merely to expand empires, besides there was no unification between christian Europe.”
You’re not telling me anything I don’t already know.
“Besides for 800 years Europe got most of her knowledge from the Islamic kingdoms so they had no reason to have a grudge against the Muslims.”
Pure fiction, most of the material that influenced the Renaissance came from the byzantine empire and monasteries and yes Renaissance thinkers were influenced by Arabic texts however that cannot be credited to islam since religion and science are complete opposites. And please no reason for a grudge? You think the Armenians and Bulgarians had a fun time under the Ottoman empire?
“Cassidy go away. You clog up the board with nonsense, and we have to waste time rebutting your garbage, simply because we cannot let it stand without a rebuttal.”
That’s rich from somebody who posted a defense of slavery.
“YOU RARELY COMMENT ON THE SUBECT OF THE ARTICLE”
More nonsense yes I have gone off topic here, but who hasn’t?
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:12 am
Europeans probably don’t want to go the way of Native American tribes. There are only so many immigrants that usually a society is comfortable with before they are afraid they will end up a minority in their own country. Think about the reverse - if there was a lot of immigration to Islamic countries of more Christians, more Jews not of that country, and Buddhists etc… building more churches synagogues, temples. That society would most likely end up feeling the same after a certain point. It is not particular to any region or people but more group dynamics. Plus it doesn’t help that extremist Muslims have been very public like in Britain about their desire that the country become an Islamic country. That is going to create fear and mistrust and self preservation behavior. I think Europe is still accepting of diversity, just not the potential (real or not) of being replaced.
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 am
Wow what a lot of hot air Folks just as I pointed out lets not look at the economic situation . Lets make people scared of muslims cause its really their fault.
Now lets think who used a similar tactic before …….. I remember Adolf Hitler ,only he blamed the Jews.
Have you heard of this chap Lou?
Believed in firm Government ,trains running on time and only having sex with people of the same race as yourself ,oh and the truth of the protocals of the Elders of Zion .
Why dont you look him up in the history books .
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:01 pm
@TYO, what a bunch of xenophobic crap, they ‘they’re taking over’ nonsense has been spewed at German immigrants, Irish immigrants, Hispanic immigrants etc. Guess what? They didn’t take over.
January 1st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Casssidy,
“Then by that logic the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan are ‘payback’ for islamic atrocities (ie the Bulgarians massacred by the Ottoman forces),”
You do realize your argument that its a payback of what the ottomans did is pathetic. Hundreds of years of colonization from which your wealth came from isn’t enough? Also even if your statement was true afghans didn’t invade Bulgaria. Its like saying japan attacked us but were gonna go ahead and attack Korea since they are Chinese looking too. Me as an indian muslim what did I do or my ancestors do for you white **** to come to india and plunder our wealth? According to your BBC india had the ESTIMATED highest GDP in the world under the rule of MUSLIM EMPEROR Akbar,Aurangzeb and as soon as you **** came its all went down. We arent Arabs nor ottomans/turks. You dont have justification on us whatsoever logically speaking. In fact you owe us compensation since every innovation you made was due to the growing wealth stolen from other countries like mine. oh by the way dont bother talk about how they brought democracy and other yadi yadi yada bulls*** since we would have automatically evolved our political arena, given the fact that we had world largest economy 5,6,7 centuries ago.
Here is a BBC video where they talk about all of this(proof):
“The story of India”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-468969693864555869#
January 1st, 2010 at 9:20 pm
I forgot one thing most of us muslims are from the subcontinent of India not arabia infact some say the whole arabian muslims dont even equal to the number of Indian Muslims. Also remember Indonesia is the most populous muslim country and they are Asian
January 2nd, 2010 at 4:52 am
@xzibiz
I’ve explained this so many times, I was trying to justify anything I was merely pointing how completely stupid ‘payback’ arguments, okay? Go back and reread my comments and you’ll see that the last thing I was trying to do was to justify the horrific invasions of Iraq of Afghanistan.
January 2nd, 2010 at 5:41 am
Is it reasonable to condemn Aurangzeb on the basis that the wars caused by his megalomania weakened both the Mughal Empire itself and its Hindu southern neighbours, allowing the British to conquer the entire subcontinent?
(Much like how the only winner of the Byzantine-Persian wars was the Caliphate…)
January 3rd, 2010 at 9:03 am
@Lou
I doubt you’ve read the Qur’an or the Hadiths. You, like you fellow uneducated loons (Spankster, Old-Leather Face etc) rely on translations at best, and interpretations from Bigots at worst. You cannot read the Qur’an or the Tafsirs in the origin as you have no knowledge of Arabic or theology. You are just a self-deluded groupie of Jihadwatch and want to emulate your prophet, Bobo Spankster by going to the field of battle, as it were, facing the supposed enemy in forums such as LW where the majority are not islamophobic bigoted scum. If you were asked anything about Islam or the Qur’an in this forum, what would you do, but go to Jihadwatch, post a query for SpankStar to answer it for you.
January 15th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
I was referring to Europe not America. I was also talking about group dynamics. I am not saying is right or wrong. It just what happens to all people.
As for America, well the German, Irish and many other immigrants did take over. Ask any Native American of the remaining tribes left. Or were Native Americans merely xenophobic?
January 17th, 2010 at 4:37 am
French behavior is nothing new. A large minority of Europeans subscribe to racist beliefs. They never had a civil rights movement. Check out all the neo-nazi activity all over Europe. Murderous attacks on Indians in Australia. British soccer hooligans(EDL) in England. Czech attacks on the Roma. Italian attacks on African immigrants etc the list goes on and on :
http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html
They can’t tell hijab apart from black skin.
If you really believe in freedom, you would let people go about their business instead of forcing your inferior sad excuse of a culture upon them. That’s right, I said it. Putting aside wine, cheese, a 35 hour work week, selective hygiene, braided armpits, the French really don’t have much of a culture. Instead what we have here are a downright nasty bunch, no longer having an empire. These days the cheese eating surrender monkeys get their kicks bullying minorities. Poll after poll shows that it is most racist country in Europe. Now I don’t want to come off as mean spirited but this obsession with Muslim woman’s clothing has gone far enough. Its time to highlight some harsh truths. Some may consider marinating in a puddle of one’s own vomit at 2 A.M outside of pub “culture,” we don’t. We also don’t think its civilized for grown men to go around stabbing each other in the buttocks after a soccer match. Call us party poopers but we don’t think decriminalizing incest, beastiality, pedophelia is healthy for society. Rest on your faded laurels like an aging has been if you want to, but the rest of the world realises that not everyone wants to eat slugs, diseased cirrhotic goose livers and raw mince meat ….. sorry that would be ‘escargots’, ‘pate de foie gras’ and ‘steak tartare’, saying it with a French accent doesn’t make it any less repulsive.
Now here’s the bottom line, don’t tell us what to wear, and we won’t tell you go jump in a lake full of crocodiles. No integration or assimilation with Nazi and fascist scum. Est-ce que vous me comprenez?
January 24th, 2010 at 8:04 am
I don’t get this part “Muslim women are being forced to wear the niqab”
NO they are NOT… They are Choosing to wear it… So why is it that Europeans Gov’t are not listening to the women in Niqab when they are teling them “I choose to wear it”
Why the Egyptian Gov’t isn’t listening to Women when they say Its my choice to wear it…”
The Niqab isn’t manditory BUT a CHOICE In ISlam for a Muslimah to wear it… For a Country to take that right away but boast about Freedom of Choice and Religion is being a Hypocrit and following the Suit of the Curropt Maoism/ Stallen mentality: “A person has freedom to do what I say do”
Where’s the freedom of religion or choice… Why does it bother these MEN in Office that they can’t get a hard on because a women is veiled?
Because she choose not to she her lips or eyes?
it’s only creepy because men have been so used to gazing a woman that the thought of takign it away upsets them…
In the end I just see it as men want to get their rocks off and not being able to because the woman that passes by is in Niqab….