Lord Carey - Telegraph
Writing in the Times, Lord Carey explains why he he has signed up to a call for restrictions on immigration:
“The sheer numbers of migrants … threaten the very ethos or DNA of our nation…. Democratic institutions such as the monarchy, Parliament, the judiciary, the Church of England, our free press and the BBC … support the liberal democratic values of the nation. Some groups of migrants, however, are ambivalent about or even hostile to such institutions. The proposed antiwar Islamist march in Wootton Bassett is a clear example of the difficulties extremists pose to British society.
“Furthermore, the idea that Britain can continue to welcome with open arms immigrants who immediately establish their own tribunals to apply Sharia, rather than make use of British civil law, is deeply socially divisive.”
See also the Daily Mail, 7 January 2010 (via Islamophobia-Watch)
January 7th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Everyone is a migrant in one form or another, I don’t think he realizes or cares how racist it sounds to say something like, “the DNA of our nation”…
January 7th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
And since when are the British monarchy or the Church of England “democratic” institutions?
I still think there is a reasonable argument against mass immigration though (it drives down wages).
January 7th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
It’s very strange how people like Lord Carey don’t make the same statements about Beth Din (Jewish courts) as they do with Sharia since they’re exactly the same and have been operating longer.
January 7th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
If we’re going to go into molecular biology, someone needs to tell this joker that DNA is 95% junk. He represents the shortening of telomeres?
@Steven,
We both know what consequences await those who take on Zionists. Its funny how the UK changed its own laws to nullify an arrest warrant for “israeli” war criminal Livni.
January 8th, 2010 at 12:29 am
Steven, the issue is that as far as non-knowledgeable non-Muslims are concerned, Shari’ah = Hudud…
January 8th, 2010 at 4:37 am
I think it should be mentioned here, that many politicians of ethnic (including Muslims) are themselves calling for immigration to be capped until problems like assimilation can be sorted out. This came about after consulting with the different minorities and the problems they have, or at least some of them, in settling down.
You’d be surprised at how many Muslims in the uK would agree with Carey. It isn’t immigration itself that is the problem, but the fact that the society is not as well equipped to deal with different cultures as say, America is.
That said, the positive side of immigration, and how Muslims help improve and contribute to the success and wealth of the UK should be highlighted too.
I shall post some links later on, showing how Muslim faith based schools top the league results in education in some cases and many more who have a higher than average exam scores in primary, secondary and higher education.
and how Muslim contribution to the economy is above the national average especially in entrepreunarial success.
I’ll be posting some links here later on, about how migration to the UK is helping to improve the DNA of the nation:)
I hope Dr Carey, will see the postive side.
Dr M,
To someone in the US, Dr Carey’s comment on DNA can sound racist, but I don’t think he meant it like that. The UK is a hereditary monarchy. Unlike in the US, state schools in the UK are Church of England, ie. there is no separation of state and religion and if you go to a state school, you will have morning prayers and such. There are separate faith based schools, like Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim.
It so happens that most Brits are secular and atheist, and Protestant Christian in name only.
In the US it’s the other way round, the state constitution was created to separate religon from state, but there is a large Bible following crowd even a “Chrsitan Taliban” that does not exist in Europe. The US is a nation of immigrants, thus the DNA comment when taken in context, can be understood to mean, that the centuries old Protestant traditon is under threat.
Steven
“Beth Din (Jewish courts) as they do with Sharia”
Actually the Jewish community has been up in arms recently over a case that went to the courts regarding who is a Jew.
Also, most British and EU Jews are not like the neocons in America. They are anti occupation, and do quite a bit for the two state solution. Even the British pro-Zionist Jews would be considered “kapo’s” and “self hating” by American neo cons.
January 8th, 2010 at 5:06 am
Some examples of how Muslims are improving the educational “DNA” of Dr Carey’s nation:)
Dr Carey should realise, they share the same values of hard work, education, good morals and a law abiding society even if at first they have trouble fitting in due to the social restrictions and “multi cultural” divisivness that serves to isolate rather than integrate.
I have said this before, and i’ll say it again, Europe can learn from America here. Everybody who goes to America, knows they have to get off their backside and contribute and that they are all equal, and will have no special “multicultural” priveleges that Europeans tout. this leads to the more irresponsible immigrants abusing the system, (radicalim, social welfare benefits, lack of productivity) which is what Europe needs to tackle. It is worth mentioning here, that this problem is not confined to Muslim communities, and in many ways, Muslims have risen above the odds to do very well, as is demonstrated below.
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Secondary School League Tables: Girls’ schools are a class act
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/secondary-school-league-tables-girls-schools-are-a-class-act-523551.html
All-girls and Muslim schools have been singled out for adding the most value to education
By Sarah Cassidy
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Muslim primary school results exceed national average
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=2796
By Elham Asaad Buaras
Muslim primary schools have exceeded England’s national average in the Key Stage 2 Level 4 (KS2L4) SAT exams, a level expected for 11 year olds.
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Supportive parents raise Muslim girls to top of progress list
By Liz Lightfoot, Education Correspondent
Published: 12:01AM GMT 13 Jan 2005
The first state-funded Islamic school in the country has topped the league table for the progress of pupils.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1481069/Supportive-parents-raise-Muslim-girls-to-top-of-progress-list.html
Muslim girls at Feversham College, Bradford, showed more improvement between the ages of 11 when they entered the school and 16 when they sat GCSEs last year than at any other state school.
The commitment of Muslim families to education was a strong factor in the school’s success alongside its moral ethos which encouraged good behaviour and hard work, said educationalists.
January 8th, 2010 at 5:16 am
This all comes about after a prediction that the population of the UK will reach 70million in ten years ,an increace in 10 over current population. This has scared a lot of people . However as the estimates of population growth in the UK over the past 50 years are as accurate as my guesses at the lottery numbers I dont see why they are getting their knickers in a twist.
With the current state of the economy many people such as the poles are leaving anyway.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:36 am
@ Nabeela: “Unlike in the US, state schools in the UK are Church of England, ie. there is no separation of state and religion and if you go to a state school, you will have morning prayers and such.”
This is either a plain lie or a simply misinformed comment. Although there is legislation which demands for daily ‘collective acts of worship’ at state schools, the reality is that very very few schools (only around 15-20%) actually implement the ruling. (http://www.archive2.official-documents.co.uk/document/deps/ofsted/170/05-secondary.html —- Section 141). In my personal experience, having been to both a state and a faith school here in London, prayers are only confined to weekly or monthly assemblies Therefore, Nabila, your assertion is wrong.
Although I like Loonwatch, some of the individuals who comment on the articles seem to make incredible assertions based on little evidence (so just like the Islamophobes then…). Europe is constantly portrayed as a bastion of intolerance whilst the suffering and persecution of non-Muslims, mainly Christians, in the Muslim world go unreported. In the last few days we had far more noticeable displays of intolerance that have not warranted the same attention as the words of some crazy priest has received here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/08/egypt-killings-christians-arrests
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/08/malaysia-churches-firebomb-attack
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704130904574643821742562800.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
There is no doubt in my mind that intolerance of Muslims exists, but Christianophobia seems to be a far stronger force, with much more deadly consequences. The fact that the persecution of Christians is not taken as seriously as it should will be a real source of radicalization amongst Christians in the future (and not of the neo-con kind).
January 8th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Juan P
“This is either a plain lie or a simply misinformed comment. Although there is legislation which demands for daily ‘collective acts of worship’ at state schools, the reality is that very very few schools (only around 15-20%) actually implement the ruling”
They cannot implement due to lack of funding, and there have been calls to improve upon that figure. Also as society gets secular, it’s not considered important. But that’s not the issue. The issue is that it USED TO BE CASE, and the legislation is still there, and there is a large number of schools that do still have collective worship and Christian ethos.
The whole point here wasn’t that a Christian education was a bad thing, but that Christianity is in the “DNA of the nation”, i was actually not accusing Carey, rather explaining his comment. Looked at from this perspective, it makes sense in England, where it would not say in the USA.
In the USA, where religion and church play no part in funding schools. In England it used to be that churches funded the education. in the USA there was a clear separation straight from the start, that was one of the goals of the founding fathers that they didn’t want to import from England or Europe. THAT was my point.
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Should CofE schools be publicly funded? Why is taxpayers’ money going to fund religious schools?
http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/education/faqcofeschools/
The English system of education has been built in partnership with the Christian churches, right from the start of mass education. The Churches were the first providers, funding building and staff costs through voluntary donations. The State gradually became convinced that it had a duty to provide education and gradually assumed a larger and larger part of the task. But this shouldn’t mean that church schools are no longer an important part of the educational landscape of a liberal democracy.
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as for the rest of your post, regarding Christians being mistreated in some Muslim countries, that is true, but we do not deny that here, nor belittle their suffering. This website’s mission is to fight Islamophobia, so it concentrates on that.
How do you know that the news articles that you published were not publicised in their respective countries? Did you check the local media?
For your information, there are Muslim groups that speak out against mistreatment of Christians and other minorities in those countries.
January 8th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Juan P, just to show you misinformed you are, a Pakistani paper reporting an attack on a church,
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/18-concerns-rise-as-new-pakistan-church-attacked-am-06
and here is Al Jazeera, supposedly a “terror supporting” site according to your buddies the neo cons, reporting on violence against Christians in Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq and other countries. Check out the website and you will find many more.
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Egypt holds Copt killing suspects
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/01/2010188752327844.html
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Malaysian churches attacked
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2010/01/20101871816435228.html
————
Who is spreading misinformation now?
January 8th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
and more of the benefits that migration, and in this case Muslim migration have brought to the UK.
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13 June 2006
Speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP, at the Islamic Finance and Trade Conference, London.
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/speech_chex_130606.htm
This speech and this conference gives me the opportunity to recognise and celebrate the invaluable contribution of the whole of the Muslim community in Britain.
In my time as Chancellor I have visited all parts of the United Kingdom. I have come to see just how much British Muslims make a huge contribution to this country’s success - to our prosperity, our society and our culture. Islam is Britain’s second largest faith, and Muslims are involved in every walk of British life - from politics, academia, law, the arts and social services to humanitarian aid work, business and finance.
I want in particular to thank the Muslim community for the enormous contribution you make to our economy. We have all learnt much from your entrepreneurial flair and talent. It is a fact that business creation is higher in the Muslim community than in many other sections of our society, and I know that British Muslims are playing a vital role in the next stage of Britain’s economic development.
But, of course, the relationship between Islam, Muslims and Britain is not a new one.
————–
Our leading Muslims: Power list celebrates the top 100 players boosting the nation
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2258888.ece
The Muslim community contributes more than £31bn to the economy, and much else besides to our lives. Last night, the business leaders, writers, academics, doctors, campaigners and aid agency founders who do most for Britain were honoured at an awards evening with a difference. Jonathan Thompson reports
Published: 11 February 2007
January 8th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Juan P- do you mean Loonwatch do not pay attention to crimes against Christians? Because this website has a clear purpose that is to check the growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the US and Europe and the Islamophobes who are gaining credibility for peddling hate and misinformation.
The suffering of non-Muslims in Muslims nations is well reported…Malaysia’s religious and racial problems are well known and they are called out on it internationally. The same goes for Egypt- although since they are a Western ally they aren’t pushed on it. You know they are also blockading Gaza and aiding in the oppression of Muslims and are not that great to their own citizens either right?
Do you not think the persecution of these Christians is not taken seriously because they are often poor, people of colour and I am talking about governments’ actions here (East Timor springs to mind on that one)
I have always acknowledged the persecution of non-Muslims in Muslim countries which need to do a lot of work to become real states that all people deserve to live in….they are developing nations…the same can be said for a lot of non-Muslim countries when it comes to minority relations.
A comparison between ‘Muslim’ nations and then the US or Europe is pointless because of the socio-historical context and of the nature of the states themselves.
Of course we should combat any kind of intolerance but what you fail to see (and is extremely important for Muslims in the UK) is that the language used by people like Lord Carey is growing more widespread, more respectable and makes our lives insecure…so ultimately whilst I think the persecution of Christian Copts is wrong, my main concern is about my future in an increasingly hostile UK, I am not going to say ‘oh well at least it’s not as bad as the Copts’….
January 8th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
@ Nabeela,
“They cannot implement due to lack of funding, and there have been calls to improve upon that figure.’
I’m not sure where you get this from, I certainly haven’t heard of it, but if its true then I stand corrected.
Lord Carey shouldn’t be chastised too much. Certainly not many of us Brits (even I as a naturalized immigrant) would not want the population to go any much higher, specially not that of London (or to 70 million) given our overburdened infrastructure. Anybody who gets the underground in the morning to get to work/uni would completely agree!
The Sharia reference is probably a bit of populism on Carey’s behalf. anjem choudary’s latest publicity whore off have made Islamism public enemy number 1, and therefore naturally Islam/Muslims have become an easy target yet again.
Al Jazeera Lover,
First of all, you misunderstood my neo-con reference. I am certainly no Neo-con. I was implying that anti-Christian persecution will create a breeding ground for the radicalization of Christians (radical being what you would associate with Neo-Conservatives) which would in turn reinforce anti-Muslim actions/behaviours in the West.
I also didn’t say that the persecution or discrimination against Christians or other religious minorities in the Muslim world isn’t reported, but that at a state level, there seems to be either a fear or reluctance to act to prevent it. The fear to act against the wishes, against the petty whims and delusional world view of Islamists is creating an unbearable situation for Christians in the region.
To prove this, we only have to look at the ridiculous ‘debate’ on the use of the word ‘Allah’ by non Muslims in Malaysia. There will only be 1 winner there, the state will back down and cave in. In Pakistan, the repeal of the blasphemy laws (and the peaceful acceptance of it by Islamists) is a dream one can only obtain after smoking some incredibly strong weed.
Nissa,
Although I understand the main purpose of this website, I was merely pointing out that there is a growing impression that the persecution of Christians, mainly but not solely by Islamists (right wing Hindu supremacists in India and some Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel also deserve a mention) does not seem as important, certainly at the UN level (UN Human Rights Council in particular). The OIC rarely links the words discrimination and persecution to anything that isn’t Gaza (just have a quick look at the website to see this for yourselves). Here in the UK, the Muslim Council of Britain also takes a similar line.
The silence of organizations like these, which claim to represent the views of Muslims, regarding the destruction of the Christian community the Muslim world is absolutely terrible for community relations. Its easy for hate mongers in the West to use such examples of intolerance to further their own arguments, such as “what would happen if Islam/Muslims took over our country?”.
If the governments of Muslim majority countries, and organizations claiming to represent them in the West, took 0.05% of the time they use to fight against Islamophobia, to deal with the even more serious issue of Christianophobia, then the world would be a much better place.
January 9th, 2010 at 2:19 am
First off all Carey seems to be using the term DNA allegorically; he’s not talking about race and there’s nothing wrong with immigration restrictions.
“The proposed antiwar Islamist march in Wootton Bassett is a clear example of the difficulties extremists pose to British society.”
The march is the work of a hate group (an off shoot of Al-Muhajiroun) whose spokesman Anjem Choudary is on record praising the 9/11 terrorists, refusing to condemn terrorist atrocities and yet Anjem and his toadies think they’re in a position to condemn the British military? Hilarious.
January 9th, 2010 at 5:10 am
“Furthermore, the idea that Britain can continue to welcome with open arms immigrants who immediately establish their own tribunals to apply Sharia, rather than make use of British civil law, is deeply socially divisive.”
Yes, because Lord Carey would never make comments that are divisive.
January 9th, 2010 at 5:54 am
Juan
This site does what it says on the tin . You cannot expect it to cover other topics . You could always set up your own related web site.:-)
Nissa
As someone who has taught in the British state school system I can tell you that the vast majority of teachers dont want to indocrinate the pupils in any religion and look upon assemblies as a waste of time
January 9th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Juan P, islamophobia in the West is totally, completely, absolutely detached from some supposed “cristianophobia” (which is non-existent) in the Muslims countries.
Christians in SOME -very few indeed- Muslims countries suffer mostly for two reasons: (1) angry mobs of Muslims who dont know where to direct their anger and use Christians as an easy scapegoat, and (2) restrictions in some countries like Saudi Arabia. But theres no equivalent of the Islamophobia in the West in the Muslim countries, there are no newspapers who publish cartoons depicting Jesus like a “gay man”, or any other insult of that type. Christians communities have always been protected in the Muslims world, if in the recent decades things have changed for SOME Muslim countries it has to be with the polarization of conflict which is epitomized by the Israel-Palestine issue, and that it only got worse in recent years with the bogus “war on terror” (aka “war on Islam”).
Simply put, todays Islamophobia in the West, and especially in Europe, is nothing more than “good ‘ol antisemitism”… since hating on Jews is not trendy anymore, and hating on “negroes” has lost its appeal, now the new toy of the old-AntiSemites and Racists are the “Muslims” and “Islam”. It gives these people a fictional Identity built on a “metaphysical enemy”, which they use to give a meaning to their otherwise silly life.
It will come a day, hopefully after not much blood spilling, 30 or 40 years from now, that islamophobic books written during these years, like Oriana Fallaci’s books, will be seen like we now see the Mein Kampf and similar hate-books. Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, along with Daniel Pipes, will go down in history on the same list of Joseph Goebbels and such people.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
AF
Yes good points, I do want to add one very important reason for attacks on Christians.
Many Christians who are attacked in Pakistan, Malaysia, Iraq, the Middle East are atacked because they’re Christians and seen as linked to American Christians.
Iraqi Chrisitans said after the Iraq war, they suffered the most in the country from internal mistrust.
The Israeli occupation has led to Jews in Yemen who are loyal citizens to be attacked, and has forced many to leave though they didn’t want to. They only left because the state cannot always protect them.
It’s very sad, but i think countries like Egypt and Pakistan should make an effort in their media to tell their people that their Christians are not linked to America nor should they be seen as fifth columnists simply because theya re Christian. Many Christians report an increase in attacks and xenophobia each time America or Israel attacks.
Iran has made some effort towards protectings it’s Jews from this sort of hatred. Iran regularly gives speeches, telling it’s people that it’s minority of Jews and Christians shouldn’t be blamed for what the Zionists do in Israel nor what American Crusaders do.
I mean, in the developed west, where people are all educated and have a free media, are not above attacking Muslims when Muslim terrorists attack them, then you can imagine what it must be like in Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq for Christians.
In a way, Christian Evangelicals and neocons are responsible for the rise on attacks on Christians and Jews in these underdeveloped countries.
This does not excuse the Muslim attackers, but I agree with Juan P that the state should do more to protect their minorities.
They should follow Iran’s lead, and tell their people that their Christians are loyal citizens who don’t support US actions (indeed they don’t as they have said in Iraq, egypt, malasia and Pakistan) and should not be attacked or held as scapegoats.
The US does, the UK did, they made it clear that their local population should not be blamed for what the terrrorists are doing. So I think Muslims should pressure Muslim countries to educate their people via the media that they shouldn’t blame their own citizens just because they share the religion of the “crusaders” and neocons.
Also you were right about Saudi Arabian, I cannot understand why the world doesn’t insist on either stopping Suaid Arabia from employing foreigners who have no rights to practice their religion while they can work. I mean if you can’t let them practice their religion why hire them? surely they shouldn’t be there?
Certainly there is no Islamic reason for this intolerance. The Prophet used to allow Chrisitans and Jews into his Mosque even.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Yet another example of harmonious cohesion of “DNA” in the UK:)
Something that maybe the Israeli’s and Palestinians can learn from.
————-
The Jewish school where half the pupils are Muslim
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/the-jewish-school-where-half-the-pupils-are-muslim-434481.html
King David, in Birmingham, is a state primary where the children learn Hebrew, recite Jewish prayers, eat kosher food and wave Israeli flags. So how come the majority of pupils are followers of Islam? Jonathan Margolis investigates
A typical end-of-term school event, then. But at King David there’s a twist that gives it a claim to be one of the most extraordinary schools in the country: King David is a strictly Jewish school. Judaism is the only religion taught. There’s a synagogue on site. The children learn modern Hebrew - Ivrit - the language of Israel. And they celebrate Israeli independence day.
But half the 247 pupils at the 40-year-old local authority-supported school are Muslim, and apparently the Muslim parents go through all sorts of hoops, including moving into the school’s catchment area, to get their children into King David to learn Hebrew, wave Israeli flags on independence day and hang out with the people some would have us believe that they hate more than anyone in the world.
The Muslim parents, mostly devout and many of the women wearing the hijab, say they love the ethos of the school, and even the kosher school lunches, which are suitable because halal and kosher dietary rules are virtually identical. The school is also respectful to Islam, setting aside a prayer room for the children and supplying Muslim teachers during Ramadan. At Eid, the Muslim children are wished Eid Mubarak in assembly, and all year round, if they wish, can wear a kufi (hat). Amazingly, dozens of the Muslim children choose instead to wear the Jewish kipah.
At the prize morning Carol Cooper, the RE teacher, says: “Boker tov,” (Ivrit for “Good morning”).
“Good morning Mrs Cooper,” the children chant in reply. The entire school, Muslims, Jews, plus the handful of Christians and Sikhs then say the Shema, the holiest Jewish prayer, all together.
January 9th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Thats quite a touching story Proud Muslim. If only the whole world was like that…
Some bad news on integration….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6958571/Britons-are-suspicious-towards-Muslims-study-finds.html
And just for Nabeela, to reinforce what I said yesterday about prayers in schools….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/6956365/More-than-230-schools-have-ditched-Christian-assemblies.html
January 10th, 2010 at 4:14 am
Juan Many britons are suspicious of religion full stop. Remember more people descibed themselves as Jedhi ( as in star wars ) than jewish at the last election
January 13th, 2010 at 6:33 am
Doh I meant last census not election