David Horowitz
David Horowitz’s NewRealBlog is (like FrontPageMag) a lightning rod for people who want to justify their preconceived prejudices about Islam and Muslims. Today, we find an article by Paul Cooper, a pastor, which allegedly purports to expose the reality of women under Sharia law. Of course, we’ve come to expect the usual dose of anti-Muslim bias from David Horowitz’s cash for hate scheme which regularly dehumanizes Palestinians and inspires right-wing terrorists.
Mr. Cooper exposes the “left-leaning” (what most call mainstream moderate) journalists who refuse to describe Sharia law in terms of pure evil:
Every week new articles come out from left-leaning journalists about how great Sharia law is and how we have nothing to fear. Yet we at NewsReal have written on many sad cases of how children are treated under Sharia all over the world. You don’t hear the whole story of the dangers of Islamic law unless you see how it affects women. This past week in Pakistan, for example, two women were falsely accused of blasphemy and almost beaten to death.
Cooper follows classic far right-wing tactics by using Islam as a political wedge issue; that is, to divide Americans according to their position on Islam. I’ve written before about right-wing activists using Islam as a stick to bash the Left. One wonders if his primary target is his political enemies (Democrats), not necessarily Muslims themselves.
Historically, Muslims had done away with harsh blasphemy laws in 1839 during the Reformation of the Ottoman Empire, specifically by a decree known as the Noble Edict of the Rose Chamber. For Mr. Cooper, though, a small troublesome detail like that need not prevent him from claiming that such severe laws are essential Islamic traditions practiced all over the Muslim world.
Admittedly, there are problems with Pakistan’s controversial blasphemy law. But Muslims have been voicing their criticism of the Pakistani government’s heavy hand for quite some time. Yursil Kidwai, in an excellent piece for the Huffington Post, describes how so-called Sharia laws are actually tactics used by corrupt governments to distract people from their endemic corruption:
It seems more than coincidental that these ‘Sharia’ incidents occur in states that are run by atheistic/communist dictators (i.e. Saddam Hussein) or ridiculously corrupt ‘Islamo-democratic’ governments.
In Pakistan’s case, the International Crisis Group provided a report last year stating:
“Decades of mismanagement, political manipulation and corruption have rendered Pakistan’s civil service incapable of providing effective governance and basic public services. In public perceptions, the country’s 2.4 million civil servants are widely seen as unresponsive and corrupt, and bureaucratic procedures cumbersome and exploitative. Bureaucratic dysfunction and low capacity undermine governance, providing opportunities to the military to subvert the democratic transition and to extremists to destabilize the state.”
Ridiculous distractions such as modern ‘Islamic’ states opinions on blasphemy, adultery, and theft allow Islamophobes to target their favorite religion, while allowing corruption and real problems to go under the radar. These laws today serve a purpose that they never had in what was the most authentic Islamic state (now only a memory): a means to prove a government’s religiosity in a midst of lies, deceit, money and total corruption which make up most of its actual administration.
Yursil is correct that the misguided policies of unelected dictators to enforce only the most harsh Sharia laws are nothing more than superficial attempts to legitimate illegitimate governments. Islamophobes like to focus on these irregular examples as a typical day of Sharia law. However, this belies the sophisticated Ottoman legal system which, using Sharia’s own internal mechanisms (such as ijtihad and istihsan), had done away with severe punishments like stoning and blasphemy. Yursil continues:
Islamic laws which reward charity, promote honesty, promote tolerance have been forgotten in these states, while a handful of ‘Shariah’ punishments were mixed in with brand-new torturous and oppressive policies and procedures.
Interestingly enough, these selected ‘Sharia’ punishments were frowned upon under the centuries of Ottoman rule and by its end had become completely unpracticed. In Ottoman lands where Sharia was the be-all, end-all official state law, these laws were unenforced as a matter of practice. This was not through denouncing or revising Islamic Law, but by putting into practice the complete and holistic set of checks and balances built into Islamic Sharia.
Of course, most Muslim law makers are following precedents similar to the Ottoman reforms. Yet, all this history and context is simply too much information to consider before David Horowitz and company declare Sharia law a threat to all women. After recounting in detail a single anecdote from Pakistan, Cooper concludes that such events are representative of the entire Muslim world (over 1 billion people):
Sadly such stories are common in many Islamic regions. Yet news agency [sic], women’s groups, and human rights organizations continue to turn a deaf ear. Despite their indifference, some of us are listening and committed to getting the word out on the true dangers of Sharia law.
We are left to believe that women everywhere in the Muslim world, without exception, are suffering every day under Sharia law. I am curious to see how Mr. Cooper explains the fact that Pakistan, allegedly under misogynist Sharia law, has twice elected a woman Prime Minister. But what do you expect from someone who links his article to Nonie Darwish, among others, as his “resource” for Sharia?
Mr. Cooper, perhaps those “news agencies, women’s groups, and human rights organizations continue to turn a deaf ear” because they don’t pay attention to exaggerated politically self-serving claims about women and Sharia law from non-experts like yourself.
January 19th, 2011 at 11:54 am
This a very interesting viewpoint. I do hope something can be done about Pakistan”s law.
January 19th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
I was rummaging around some articles at newsrealbog and found this disturbing article from last year:
It’s Time to Put the Coffee Down and Eradicate Islam in the West
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/07/21/it%E2%80%99s-time-to-put-the-coffee-down-and-eradicate-islam-in-the-west/
just wow.
January 19th, 2011 at 1:36 pm
It’s lawyers who construct law in the Muslim world (especially Middle East), not religious scholars (besides a couple of notable exceptions, though even Saudi has a generally codified system). Any “Islamic law” that exists outside of these exceptions is simply as trace, used and seen through the lens of modern, codified legal systems.
That’s part of the reason the religious scholars are often very annoyed with politicians and the political sphere, if they have not been acquiesced – their historical authority base has been eroded and challenged. Chibli Mallat’s An Introduction to Middle Eastern Law (Oxford University Press, 2007) expertly outlines the field as it stands.
Regardless, when dealing with laws that claim to be “Islamic” (such as the blasphemy law, Pakistan’s “hudud” laws and so on), recourse to the Islamic tradition can be very useful. See for example Asifa Quraishi’s “Her Honor: An Islamic Critique of the Rape Laws of Pakistan from a Woman-Sensitive Perspective“.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Can some one clarify if the Blasphemy laws of Pakistan are compatible with Quran? These laws are used to persecute the Christians and to settle some personal dispute.Is Islam so fragile and insecure that it needs such laws.Hadiths explicitly expose the life of Mohammad which was certainly not very commendable.Best would be to discard all those Hadiths or admit the truth about Mohammad.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
@HalalPork
Ali Sina is your source for slander against Islam. I have refuted his arguments on my website. So bring forth something new (respond meaningfully to my criticism of Ali Sina) or stop repeating the lies that Muhammad was a murderer, rapist, terrorist, and pedophile.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
The author is right; government corruption and mismanagement are huge problems in many Muslim-majority countries. I was actually in Rahim Yar Khan, Pakistan a few weeks ago, and I remember my cousins explaining how the local government wouldn’t give permits to entrepreneurs who wanted to build power plants—consequently the government had a monopoly on electricity. People living in Muslim-majority countries care about real problems like poverty and incompetent governments, not irrelevant or nonexistent problems (like stealth Jihad, water Jihad, or Campbell soup Jihad) that Spencer et al. complain about.
January 19th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
I agree NassirH, just thinking of recent events in Tunisia shows this; the people rose up against a corrupt government due to its ineptitude and lack of care for its citizens.
January 19th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
That was just part 1 of Mr. Cooper’s article. I can’t wait for part 2.
January 19th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
“Can some one clarify if the Blasphemy laws of Pakistan are compatible with Quran? ”
“They are patient, and repel evil with good…When they hear vile ridicule (against their faith), they ignore it and say: “We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be unto you!” (Quran, 28:54-55)”
Many Muslim scholars including Javed Ahmed Ghamdi believe there is death penalty for blasphemy based on this and numerous other verses.
January 19th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
*there is no, I think you mean Mosizzle.
January 19th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
Yes, I meant there is no death penalty according to these scholars. An unfortunate mistake I must say…
January 19th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Good reference, Mosizzle. I’ll add this.
And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say,”Peace.” (25:63)
January 19th, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar On Islam: ‘Islamophobia Is On The Rise’
NBA legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar spoke over the phone with Katia Couric on Wednesday and told her that he believes Islamophobia is on the rise.
“I think Islamophobia is on the rise,” the former Los Angeles Laker said. “I think the best way to counter it is just communication, to let people who we are and what we believe in. It’s no mystery and it’s certainly nothing that we have to be fearful of.”
He went on to say that when we’re dealing with radical people who “want to have a war with us, that gets thrown into the mix. A whole lot of confusion ensues.”
He said the best way in countering that is through education.
Video Link:http: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/19/kareem-abdul-jabbar-islamophobia_n_811181.html
January 19th, 2011 at 8:08 pm
So what does incidents in Pakistan have to do with majority of Muslims around the world?! That has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.
It’s the people, not the religion, causing problems!
So sick of Islam being blamed!
I too can pick on non-Muslim criminal activities and blame it on their religion but I won’t stoop as low as these bigots!
Seems like these bigots are now going after the Chinese. They’re next!
January 19th, 2011 at 10:25 pm
“These laws are used to persecute the Christians”
Huh, very interesting that one brings up the legitimacy of the blasphemy law. I recently attended a lecture by a local Mufti, and a rather conservative one. He explicitly said that these laws are not proper, especially the part about non-Muslims being eligible to be punished under this law. It’s really quite a pity.
January 20th, 2011 at 12:57 am
Off topic, but here’s a good one for your ‘what if they were Muslim?’ section.
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/01/12/israels-orthodox-rabbis-palestinians-to-the-ovens/
January 20th, 2011 at 1:42 am
Horowitz is an idiot. Islam is as rightfully against smearing faiths and good people as any other religion. Judging Muslims’ morals for the actions of some corrupt Mullahs? That’s not even like judging Americans’ intelligence for the actions of George Bush and Sarah Palin; that’s like judging American’s intelligence for the actions of Pastor Terry Jones and Glenn Beck.
January 20th, 2011 at 3:51 am
@Tariq-I am now in a paralell universe…. that is wrong on so many levels
January 20th, 2011 at 3:52 am
should have been Tarig
January 20th, 2011 at 7:18 am
@Mindy, it’s ok a remarkable number of people spell my name with a Q even when it is written in front of them, thank’s for correcting yourself though!
January 20th, 2011 at 11:01 am
The more I see these horrid excuses for human beings slander Islam and Muslims with lies, distortions and sensationalism, the more I’m convinced that Islam is truly the light of truth from God, as there is nothing that the likes of Horowitz, his dog Spencer, Geller, Wilders, etc. would despise more than the truth.
January 21st, 2011 at 5:08 am
@Awesome :How can a blind person see the light? Then if you are born and brought up in darkness on top of that,it makes it worse.
January 21st, 2011 at 7:00 am
And how do you know what the truth is halalporker? I’m willing to bet that you were born and raised as Christian and have spent most your life living in a Christian country. You probably have spent most your life surrounded by crazy evangelicals who seclude themselves from the secular world to ‘proove’ their purity. Have you ever lived in another country? Odds are if you were born somewhere else you would be Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish or even Muslim…
So how do you know that you are ‘right’ and we are ‘wrong’? Simply because your parents told you what to believe?
January 21st, 2011 at 7:24 am
He’s right because he says so, oh the irony of Mr Pork’s statements makes me laugh every time.
January 21st, 2011 at 8:52 am
I will if you will Mr Pork, clearly the message of Jesus hasn’t touched your dark heart. My Dad is a better Christian than you and he’s an atheist. You’ve proven nothing but your stupidity, bigotry and closed-mindedness. Only one person on this tread is indoctrinated out of the two of us and I’ll give you a big hint, it ‘ain’t me. Peace.
January 21st, 2011 at 8:59 am
I think some of these religions are strange where they worship animals or Satan or earth or wind or sun but I don’t spend my waking hours sitting on comment boards for these religions and telling them how stupid they are. So if Islam doesn’t rock your boat or if you don’t find Mohammed spectacular why don’t you get lost, get a hobby, think of something more productive to do like worry about the food crisis or global warming, etc because seriously you will NEVER be able to convert any Muslim back to anything else. And on that note, Islam is great, Allah is great, Mohammed is great, so great that I would have a dozen sons and call each of them Mohammed so now shoooooo.
January 21st, 2011 at 10:16 am
“You would find a perfect life.If you find any sin in my SAVIOUR Jesus”
How can we Muslims find a sin in Jesus’ life when we,as Muslims believe that all Prophets were great examples for mankind. It is only in the Bible do we find slander against the Prophets. Whilst we Muslims believe that the Prophet Dawood was not a sinner, the Bible says he committed adultery and murder! It is one of the many reasons Muslims do not believe in the Bible In today’s form.
You also argue about polygamy in Islam but what about King Solomon’s 700 wives and 300 concubines? Obviously, it was common at the time to have a large number of wives but why do you criticise the Prophet when he did the same?
Prophets do not sin but, like all humans, they can make mistakes or even find difficulty in their mission. Numerous times we find the Prophet would be distressed and saddened by how hard it was to spread the word of God and how much he had to suffer to do so. These moments of ‘weakness’ are seen in Jesus as well, when in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus asks for the “cup of suffering” to be taken away from him if possible. As you can see, Jesus is human, he can feel pain, he is afraid, and asks God to alleviate his pain. He is human, not God.We can also see he is human when he loses his patience and violently destroys the businesses set up in the Temple.
None of the Prophets can be sinful. A ‘Sinful Prophet’ is an oxymoron found only in the Bible.
January 21st, 2011 at 11:03 am
@Awesome :How can a blind person see the light? Then if you are born and brought up in darkness on top of that,it makes it worse.
@HalalPork: And you are indeed such a person, while I am not.
Mohammad told Fatima,his beloved daughter that he could do nothing about her future because he was not sure where he would be after his own death.
He never said that he wasn’t sure where he would be after his own death. That is only an interpretation of what was actually said:
Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. (Qur’an 46:9)
Note that there is nothing explicit regarding the subject of death and the hereafter in this verse. Ultimately, whether it is referring to the hereafter or not, is irrelevant, since, regardless of what it may be referring to, he was still divinely informed of it afterwards, as it is explicitly stated in the Qur’an:
Surely We have given to you a clear victory, That Allah may forgive your past faults and those to follow and complete His favor to you and keep you on a right way (Qur’an 48:1-2)
Plus, he is even documented as saying “I am the first who will enter Paradise”.
January 21st, 2011 at 11:11 am
The loons have prodded me too much, I have come out of the closet, I have started a blog
aayjay.wordpress.com
Let me know what you think. Thanks. All non-loons welcome.
January 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am
To Tarig and Mindy1,
If the name Tarig is meant to be like the first name of the Great Muslim Commandr who conquered spain in the 7TH century A.D.,the correct spelling is Tariq,not Tarig.
The name of the Great Muslim Commander who conquered Spain was Tariq ibn Ziyad. Please google it to see not once it was spelled as Tarig. In every case listed it was spelled Tariq.
Spelling confusions do frequently occur in both English and Arabic languages because there are alphabets in the Arabic language having no equivalent in the English language and vise versas.
The English alphabets “P” and “V” have no equivalent in the Arabic language. That is why some Arabic speaking individuals pronounce the “P” as “B”. Instead of pronouncing the word “people” correctly “people”,they pronounce it as “Beoble” !
By the same token,the following Arabic alphabets have no equivalent in the English alphabets:
~ Qhaf like in Tariq.
~ Kha like in Khalid.
~ Ghain or Gha like in Afghanistan.
~ Thad like in Muthar.
~ H’a like in Hanan or like in Haneen.
Tarig-I do not mean,at all,that you should change your name. Absolutely not. What I meant was/is to keep the record straight,as far as the Arabic name “Tariq” was/is concerned.
January 21st, 2011 at 2:29 pm
If you ever hear spoken Arabic from the Arabian Peninsula, East Africa, and even Iraq, they pronounce “q” as “g”, so it sounds like “goran” instead of “quran”, for example. So no worries!
January 21st, 2011 at 2:56 pm
Tarig-I do not mean,at all,that you should change your name. Absolutely not. What I meant was/is to keep the record straight,as far as the Arabic name “Tariq” was/is concerned.//
@Garo, believe me I am aware how it is commonly written in English, but that is not how my name is on my birth certificate, and it is not how I like to be referred to. I know what my name means, I know what it stands for, and I know the history of people whose name I share; but considering the letter ‘qalf’ is non-existent in the english language, I think it is a bit over the top to question the spelling of an originally Arabic name. I’ll tell you what, how about I let you translate it properly, and you can call me ‘morning star’ how does that sound?
@Dawood, I am from Sudan, we have a very unique form of Arabic, I think of it as to Arabic what Jamaican is to English!
January 21st, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Sudanese Arabic is beautiful, don’t knock it! It’s one of the first dialects I ever heard spoken.
January 21st, 2011 at 3:42 pm
On David Fanshawe’s “African Sanctus” album there is a recording of a group of Sudanese people chanting the Quran. It’s amazing.
January 22nd, 2011 at 12:00 am
Tarig,
I do share Dawood’s opinion that the “Sudanese Arabic is beautiful”,indeed. In fact,the Sudaneses are the ones whose Arabic “Fus ha” has the least contaminations from the “UnFus ha” Arabic.
January 22nd, 2011 at 2:38 am
@Mosizzle: “You also argue about polygamy in Islam but what about King Solomon’s 700 wives and 300 concubines? Obviously, it was common at the time to have a large number of wives but why do you criticise the Prophet when he did the same?”
Abhorrence of polygamy is a Western thing, not a Christian thing. Polygamy is not forbidden in the Bible, but in the West it has been banned since at least as far back as the pagan Greeks and Romans.
January 22nd, 2011 at 3:52 am
@Jack Cope :You stated .Now you make me laugh.Have you ever seen milk to be white and black at the same time.Your father was probably a Morman one time.Christianty is a personal relationship with Jesus,the SAVIOPUR of the world.You are a Muslim now .Good luck with the Houries when you meet up with your Allah,who is running a good WHORE house for Muslims.Just send us a card when you get there.@ DEFEND THE PROPHET :It was very intersting to read your site specially the wilkopedia about QURAN.After reading that, a Muslim must be BRAINLESS to remain a Muslim much longer.Thanks all the same.
January 22nd, 2011 at 3:56 am
@Jack Cope:You stated that my father is a better Christian than you and his is an ATHEIST.That is INSANE and impossible.Now continue reading my above comments.
January 22nd, 2011 at 4:31 am
“You stated that my father is a better Christian than you and his is an ATHEIST.That is INSANE and impossible.Now continue reading my above comments.”
Hmmmm, he gives to charity, respects his neighbors, helps the poor and disadvantaged, gave everything he ever had to support his family and others (and still does in his twilight years even though he should have retired by now), teaches tolerance of others, bought up his children well, supports his wife in everything she does though sickness and health, poverty and riches etc, and above all doesn’t go around trolling random websites spouting shite. Sounds like a good damn Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever, far better than many ‘practicing’ Christians, Jews and Muslims that I have met in my time. But of course, according to you he is going to hell because he refuses to believe that by believing in a zombie Jesus, he is ‘saved’. We’ll let God sort that one out. And no, he was not a ‘Morman’ sic. (WTF did that come from?!), actually he went to Sunday school all through his young life, thought it was bollocks that they couldn’t answer his many questions (he was told to shut up and accept it) and became an Atheist. His choice and I understand and respect it.
“Christianty is a personal relationship with Jesus,the SAVIOPUR of the world.”
Great, I’m sure He has lots of time for morons like you! I feel sorry for Him.
“Good luck with the Houries when you meet up with your Allah,who is running a good WHORE house for Muslims.Just send us a card when you get there.”
Always with the sex with you people… I wonder why. Deprivation methinks. I’ll be just fine with my wife thanks.
“@ DEFEND THE PROPHET :It was very intersting to read your site specially the wilkopedia about QURAN.After reading that, a Muslim must be BRAINLESS to remain a Muslim much longer.Thanks all the same.”
Uh oh…. someone is getting does not compute errors! Quick Mr Pork! Run while you can and get your dose of faithfreedom to wipe out the truths you just read!
To all Christian readers, I mean no disrespect to Christianity or Jesus,
just to fools like Mr Pork. Having read the Bible many a time I can see it is a religion of God when used correctly, just not my personal choice. Peace.
January 22nd, 2011 at 1:33 pm
@Jack Cope ;You have called Jesus -The Christ, Son of God- Zombie Jesus.Is that your respect for Jesus-My Lord and Saviour?As a true Muslim,you also speak with the FORK TOUNGUE.My challenge still stands to all the Muslims which includes you Mr.Cope:PROVE ANY SIN COMMITTED BY JESUS-THE SON OF LIVING GOD AND ALSO TRY TO PROVE ANY SIN,NOT COMMITTED BY YOUR PROPHET,YOU WORSHIP AND THEN COME BACK TO ME.I am not going to call you any names as you did.
January 22nd, 2011 at 1:56 pm
“PROVE ANY SIN COMMITTED BY JESUS-THE SON OF LIVING GOD AND ALSO TRY TO PROVE ANY SIN,NOT COMMITTED BY YOUR PROPHET,YOU WORSHIP AND THEN COME BACK TO ME.I ”
You obviously didn’t read my comment which responded to this ‘challenge’. Muslims believe Prophets don’t commit sins, but they can make mistakes or have moments of ‘weakness’ and ‘doubt’. Even Jesus.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/01/david-horowitz%e2%80%99s-blog-spouting-propaganda-as-usual/#comment-52099
January 22nd, 2011 at 2:54 pm
Mosizzle ;To a Muslim,murder is not a sin,just a mistake.Mohammad murdered over 800 jews of Quraza tribe and enslaved and raped their women.In your eyes ,those were just a few mistakes of your prophet in the sight of Allah-the Arabian god.I am afraid the standards of morality are too low in the eyes of the civilized world.You murder somebody in the civilised western country and claim that it was just a mistake,I am sure you will face the full eight of law.To save the name of Ayesha,who was accused of adultry,Mohammad came up with the Idea of 4 Muslim men as witnesses which only protects the rapists.See what happens in the Muslim countries where the women get accused for adultry instead and punished.I could keep going but it is like throwing pearls before a swine,so i better stop.Study Islam critically and you would agree with Mutafa Kemal Ata Turk,who called Islam as the absurd theology of an Immoral Beduine.I wonder why ,no Muslim has ever accused him of BLASPHEMY.HENCE HE MUST BE RIGHT.
January 22nd, 2011 at 3:12 pm
@HalalPork
Please get your information about Islam from someone who is not an internet sociopath.
January 22nd, 2011 at 5:06 pm
“Mohammad murdered over 800 jews of Quraza tribe and enslaved and raped their women”
That is a big fat lie but if you insist I guess Mohammed had to do what he had to do.
January 22nd, 2011 at 6:17 pm
“10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.”
[Deuteronomy 20:10-15]
More?
“16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you”
Seriously HalalPork, don’t turn this into a Christianity vs Islam thing. This site is open to people of all faiths and is not an “Islamic Supremacist” site looking to spread Islam. It is run by people of all faiths to combat Islamophobia. This isn’t a forum for you to win some converts or spread your religion.
The whole Banu Qurayza thing has been put to rest by numerous Muslims. The only thing you need to know is that at this time, this sort of behaviour was absolutely acceptable and standard practice. And considering that those passages come from the Jewish part of the Bible, it is fair to assume that the tribe would have done the same if they were in the Prophet’s position. It wasn’t a massacre just because they were Jewish but it was their punishment for treason and rebellion against the state and violation of the Charter of Medina they had willingly signed. And at the time that was the punishment. Even many countries today still enforce the death penalty for treason.
And you’ve brought that quote up numerous times. Turkish Muslims that love their founder and the Prophet will have issue with what you say. I can’t seem to find the source for that quote but even die-hard Kemalists wouldn’t say such a thing. They’ll drink alcohol, have extra-marital sex, never pray or read Quran but will still find such a statement to be blasphemy. Ataturk may have abolished the Khilafah but according to many he still identified himself as a Muslim.
January 22nd, 2011 at 6:33 pm
“He [Muhammed] is Allah’s first and greatest human-being. Today, in his footsteps, millions are walking. Your and my name would get erased someday but he, eternally, is immortal.”–Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
January 22nd, 2011 at 7:49 pm
While I agree with Mosizzle, I think that Nassir’s quote could be interpreted as not necessarily praise for Mohammed. The meaning depends on your (positive or negative) view of Allah…..
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:27 pm
@Mosizzle;Please get the book:HOLY TERROR BY AMER TAHERI and see what is written on page 187.Shall I give you the line number as well?If you read the TEN COMMANDMENTS given by GOD to the JEWS,you will find this:THOU SHALL NOT KILL and ALSO:THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY,THOU SHALL NOT STEAL,THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,THOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP IDOLS and a few more and Mohammad broke all those commandments of GOD,which I can easily prove to any MUSLIM from MUSLIM SOURCES.JIHAD is a form of TERRORISM which Muslims are obliged to engage in till they subjugate the world for Mohammad/Allah.Only God is HOLY and to call Mohammad HOLY is BLASPHEMOUS.
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:33 pm
There is more:
The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”
3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
If Jesus is in fact God, this was his command. Then there’s Sodom and Gomora, the flood, the first borns, etc. I’m not judging here. Just sayin’, God can be vengeful and the other prophets were indeed warriors. I wonder if Bob and Pork would accuse Moses of warcrimes.
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:38 pm
“THOU SHALL NOT KILL and ALSO:THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY,THOU SHALL NOT STEAL,THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,THOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP IDOLS and a few more and Mohammad broke all those commandments of GOD,which I can easily prove to any MUSLIM from MUSLIM SOURCES”
Interesting how the Bible says the Prophets killed and committed adultery (King David). The Quran says the Prophets did not. Hmmm…
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:41 pm
” I can easily prove to any MUSLIM from MUSLIM SOURCES”
If you can prove all of those allegations “easily” then go ahead. And while you’re at it, defend the Biblical version of the Prophets who murdered and committed adultery (King David) and had multiple wives (King Solomon).
Or, why don’t you just accept peace with Muslims and work with us, not against us, for a better world. And please, let’s not turn this into a Christianity vs Islam thing. This is not the right site for this kind of discussion.
January 22nd, 2011 at 9:43 pm
Pork off his meds:
“THOU SHALL NOT KILL and ALSO:THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY,THOU SHALL NOT STEAL,THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,THOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP IDOLS and a few more and Mohammad broke all those commandments of GOD”
It’s all here as clear as your psychosis:
http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_10commandments.htm
It really couldn’t be any more clear to a normal human being with balanced thought process.
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:10 pm
“Only God is HOLY and to call Mohammad HOLY is BLASPHEMOUS.”
Better tell the Pope that he can’t be called the Holy Father anymore.
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 pm
How is calling something ‘Holy’ considered blasphemous? Holy water, Holy day (hence holiday), Holy Grail, Holy places, Holy of Holies. Are you going to condemn all of these terms as blasphemous. They are widely used by Christians and Jews.
“Holy smokes, Batman!”. Blasphemous Robin…
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Holy sh*t comes to mind after reading Pork posts.
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:46 pm
@MOSIZZLE :NO cover up jobs in the HOLY BIBLE.It tell every thing truthfully unlike your Quran.
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 pm
“NO cover up jobs in the HOLY BIBLE.It tell every thing truthfully unlike your Quran”
Right… where are these cover up jobs then? And yeah, God being his own Son was so obviously not a lie.
January 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 pm
Oh and yeah, we are still waiting for your to prove your slander against Mohamed from Muslim sources. We are still waiting for a lot of things from you… you’re all talk Mr Pork, no, not talk, screaming!
January 22nd, 2011 at 11:46 pm
Halal Pork this is not a site to compare the merits of Jesus vs. Mohammed…to me both are perfect BUT again my question is: Why are you losing sleep over Mohammed not perfect in your eyes or even a criminal in your eyes? If you think we are duped so be it, if you think we are a cult so be it, just get over it and be done with it! Move On!!
Allah u Akbar, Mohammed is Great and Jesus is Great!
January 23rd, 2011 at 12:02 am
I think it’s because he is scared to be honest. You know how it is, the ‘my truth is only truth so long as it’s above others and I can prove it’. A sign of insecurity in his choice of faith. I remember when he shouted down Gandhi of all people because Hindus happen to worship one God as well (they see the multitude of ‘gods’ as mere visions created by man to understand and interact with God). It’s insecurity and I get it a lot from his sort, they *have* to ‘prove’ that their faith is ‘right’ else it starts to fall down. A lot like the Taliban etc I feel.
January 23rd, 2011 at 12:14 am
Actually Jack I have the feeling he is not a Christian either. He is just presenting Christianity as a shield to attack Mohammed since Jesus has a larger following and there is nothing conflicting in history about him as we have about Mohammed.
I have noted Christians who are averse to Muslims are more averse to Islam in general than being averse to the Prophet. Jews and Hindus (not all of them but some) are very averse to Mohammed because they do consider him a false Prophet and curse him in the worst lingo.
Well thats just my feeling.
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:44 am
If you read the TEN COMMANDMENTS given by GOD to the JEWS,you will find this:THOU SHALL NOT KILL and ALSO:THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY,THOU SHALL NOT STEAL,THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,THOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP IDOLS and a few more and Mohammad broke all those commandments of GOD,which I can easily prove to any MUSLIM from MUSLIM SOURCES.JIHAD is a form of TERRORISM which Muslims are obliged to engage in till they subjugate the world for Mohammad/Allah.Only God is HOLY and to call Mohammad HOLY is BLASPHEMOUS.
Prophet Muhammad was indeed holy, and he did not break any of the commandments of God, and certainly not the ones Pork mentioned.
Any Christian or Jew who reveres the previous Prophets, yet somehow manages to find fault with Prophet Muhammad, is a hypocrite, since there really isn’t anything substantially different about what Prophet Muhammad did, that any of the previous Prophets did not do.
They whine about Prophet Muhammad being a sex maniac for having 11-13 wives, yet revere Prophet Solomon as noble, great, etc., when he had 700 wives.
They lament over Prophet Muhammad’s battles against hostile enemies, when we find even worse battles being waged by Prophets Moses, Joshua, and David, which they glorify.
In truth, Christians and Jews don’t have a legitimate argument against Islam. “Islam is evil”, “Muhammad was a sex maniac”, “Allah is a moon god”, “The Qur’an calls for war against unbelievers”, “Muslims are terrorists” etc. are all nonsense claims based on ignorance, and used as excuses to mask the REAL reason for the anti-Islam mantra; it’s popular and not Christian.
January 23rd, 2011 at 4:15 am
“and Mohammad broke all those commandments of GOD,which I can easily prove to any MUSLIM from MUSLIM SOURCES”
Pork, you filthy liar, next time before you threaten us with proof from Muslim sources to your claims, just provide them before a dratted Muslim like myself actually looks up Muslim sources to show how brutally wrong you are.
Speaking of that:
Murder and Adultery:
“And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty.
Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated” – (Quran 25:68,69)
Theft:
“Usama approached the Prophet on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet said, “The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the poor and forgive the rich. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand.” (Narrated by A’isha)
“I gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet with a group of people, and he said, “I take your pledge that you will not worship anything besides Allah, will not steal, will not commit infanticide, will not slander others by forging false statements and spreading it, and will not disobey me in anything good. And whoever among you fulfill all these (obligations of the pledge), his reward is with Allah. And whoever commits any of the above crimes and receives his legal punishment in this world, that will be his expiation and purification. But if Allah screens his sin, it will be up to Allah, Who will either punish or forgive him according to His wish.” Abu Abdullah said: “If a thief repents after his hand has been cut off, the his witness well be accepted. Similarly, if any person upon whom any legal punishment has been inflicted, repents, his witness will be accepted.” (Narrated by Ubada ibn As-Samit)
False Witness:
http://www.readislamicbooks.com/18-bearing-false-witness.html
Worshiping idols:
Shirk in Islam is the only unforgivable crime, even a dolt like you should know that.
“Indeed, Allah forgives not that partners be set up with Him [in worship] but He forgives other than that to whom He pleases. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.” – (Quran 4:48)
“Whoever died while supplicating another deity besides Allah , will enter the Fire.” (Sahih al Bukhari)
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:43 am
“NO cover up jobs in the HOLY BIBLE.It tell every thing truthfully unlike your Quran”
Ok. So when Jesus said “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Gospel of Matthew 10:34) that was exactly what he meant.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:13 am
“Shirk in Islam is the only unforgivable crime”
It is only forgivable if you repent whilst you are alive.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:04 am
I wouldn’t expect anything less from a “christian” who choses a username to mock Muslims because they don’t eat pork, when the Bible also commands not to eat pork.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:13 am
Everybody be careful. Pork is a troll and is trying to incite Muslim-Christian hatred..think Egypt. I don’t think he-it-whatever-life-form-that-is is a Christian. This particular life form is probably an atheist.
Here is what I think about Bible and Quran. The original Bible was the word of God as is the Quran. Bible has been around longer and Muslims think there have been changes in it. Now Quran has been promised to be protected by Allah but on the same note I have seen versions from Ahmadis that have changes to it so I wonder sometimes how is Allah’s promise going to be implemented. I think it will be implemented in the sense that people Hifz it and MashAllah there are so many Hafizs around the world that the authentic Quran will always be in people’s hearts and can always be brought to paper even tho the fake Qurans are produced by Allah’s enemies.
January 23rd, 2011 at 12:56 pm
@ A.J ;Reading your comments,I am surprised to know that Ahmedis have made certain changes in your Quran.Why has your Allah been unable to stop that?Your Allah must be fake , Impotent and a liar.Try to log on :A MUSLIMS JOURNEY TO HOPE:and find the TRUTH,which only could set you free.
January 23rd, 2011 at 1:45 pm
haram pork says:
“@ A.J ;Reading your comments,I am surprised to know that Ahmedis have made certain changes in your Quran.Why has your Allah been unable to stop that?Your Allah must be fake , Impotent and a liar.Try to log on :A MUSLIMS JOURNEY TO HOPE:and find the TRUTH,which only could set you free.”
Congrats to him for completely ignoring the part about hafiz. what say you about the changes in the Bible? Is your God a fake because he couldn’t stop these changes being made? Here’s a clue for you: human agency and free will. And since we are making suggestions here is one for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
Allahu A’lam
January 23rd, 2011 at 2:31 pm
When Allah meant he would prevent changes to the Quran he didn’t mean that he would send down a lightning bolt and kill whoever adds a letter onto the Quran, but that it would not get corrupted as the Bible has. And it has HalalPork, why else are the numerous translations that are copies of copies but the original manuscripts are gone. There are even contradictions between some of the oldest copies. Take a look at the New International Version. Manypages have footnotes explaining these differences between the manuscripts and that some exclude the term “Son of God”.
Again, let’s not turn this into a Christianity vs Islam forum. This is not a “prove which religion is best” website but a website against Islamophobia.
By the way, the Quran has been memorised by millions so there is no way it will disappear until the end times.
January 23rd, 2011 at 5:34 pm
@ A.J ;Reading your comments,I am surprised to know that Ahmedis have made certain changes in your Quran.Why has your Allah been unable to stop that?Your Allah must be fake , Impotent and a liar.Try to log on :A MUSLIMS JOURNEY TO HOPE:and find the TRUTH,which only could set you free.
Fringe sects producing altered copies of the Qur’an, is not the same thing as changing the Qur’an itself.
If someone, for example, produced a copy of the dictionary with its definitions being altered, would that be enough to actually alter the definitions themselves? Of course not.
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Pork say:
La Ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur Rasulullah
It will set you free!
January 23rd, 2011 at 6:49 pm
@Mosizzle :Can you honestly point out the changes made in the Holy Bible?The Christian Scholars have the original ancient documenmts to prove the authenticity of the Bible.The original Quran was written in the bones,stones and some times on palm leaves.According to one tradition Mohammad’s goat ate those Quranic verses written on palm leaves and turned them into droppings.Have the Muslims been able to decipher those .Can you produce those original pieces of writings.Recently,the oldest copy of Quran was discovered in a Mosque in YEMEN by a Germen scholar which is completely different from the one you parrot day and night.Again try to log on to wilkopedia about the Quran and you would be shocked to find the truth about Quran and the alterations ,it has gone through.Finally,one Maulana of Broadway Mosque in Southhall England gave a KHUTBA claiming that there was no WISDOM in the Quran.According to a Newspaper report,no Muslim even raised a voice against those comments.Hence,there must be truth in that.The Muslims can never unite and agree on anything among themselves.Look at the conflict between SUNNIS and SHITES.Both call each other KAFIR.That is all because of Quran.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:04 pm
I would encourage everyone interested in the Quranic variants etc. discovered in Sana’a to read the following article:
Benham Sadeghi and Uwe Bergmann, “The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Qur’an of the Prophet”, Arabica 57, no. 4 (2010): 343-436
It can be viewed in pdf here.
The article lists all the found discrepancies, which affect only spelling conventions really. It concludes the following:
“When one speaks of collecting all manuscripts, one means essentially the innumerable ‘Utmannic materials, the main aim of this gargantuan task would be to reconstruct their archetype, the original codex of ‘Utman. But as explained above (p. 368), the work of Michael Cook and others has shown that we already know the skeletal-morphemic text of the original codices of ‘Utman, meaning that the uncertainty of the skeletal text primarily concerns spelling. A list of all the ways in which the words in ‘Utmanic differ from that known text would be nothing more than a list of later accretions, useful at best for tracing the history of manuscript production after AD 656. New information might clarify certain spelling practices, some disputed undotted consonants and disputed verse divisions in the original codices sent out by ‘Utman; but while any new tidbit would be exciting for the Qurʾān specialist, rarely will such information make a major difference in our understanding of the history of the Qur’an.”
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:07 pm
Also interesting in that regard is: Walid Saleh’s “The Etymological Fallacy and Qur’anic Studies: Muhammad, Paradise, and Late Antiquity”, which can be foundhere and is well worth a read.
So too is Intisar Rabb’s well-received article “Non-Canonical Readings ofthe Qur’an – Recognition and Authenticity (The Himsi Reading)” Journal of Qur’anic Studies 8, no. 2 (2006): 84-127. This excellent article studies a non-canonical reading preserved in manuscript form, noting its differences from the accepted ‘Uthmanic recension. I could not find it, unfortunately, outside of academic journals, but for those interested and who have access, it is very beneficial.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:08 pm
“The Christian Scholars have the original ancient documenmts to prove the authenticity of the Bible.”
Wow! Really? Can you send me a link to the original Bible, why do I bother with Biblegateway.com. Here’s a question porky, if they have the original ancient documents, then why are there hundreds of different copies of the Bible, who vary not only in translation but in content too. I was recently browsing the “New International Bible” in which the phrase “Son of God” was written as the opening of Mark’s gospel and had an asterisk (*) next to it. I looked at the footnotes and “Bam!” there it was — “This phrase [Son of God] is not mentioned in some manuscripts”. Some copies of the Mark Gospel that still exist (which are themselves copies, not the real thing) actually don’t have the phrase “Son of God”. This isn’t just mistake but a serious error. How could that happen if they have the real Bible. Obviously, Porky you are telling porkies.
They haven’t found the original New Testament. Fragments of the Old Testament were found as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Did you know they have found numerous other Gospels that the Church decided not to include as the 4 gospels? There was even a Gospel of Judas!!! The problem is that the books called the “Gospels” are just second-hand accounts of Jesus life written by people who weren’t really there. Who was the Gospel writer reporting on Jesus’ prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane. The only possible witnesses (the disciples) were asleep. Yet “Mark” who wasn’t even there or Jesus would have noticed was able to record his exact word!! And what about the contradictions within the Gospels themselves.
Please see “Banned from the Bible”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyN5tWUIUI
“According to a Newspaper report,no Muslim even raised a voice against those comments.Hence,there must be truth in that.”
I’m going to need a link to the report for me to believe that and respond to it.
“Again try to log on to wilkopedia about the Quran and you would be shocked to find the truth about Quran and the alterations”
Wow. You are so scholarly. “Wilkopedia”. Why don’t you try reading some of books from famous and respected historians. William Montgomery Watt, a Roman Catholic, believed the Quran to be divinely inspired. He was the Professor of Islamic studies at the University of Edinburgh. More trustworthy than Wikipedia.
“That is all because of Quran.”
They have the same Quran. They agree on that. So you are wrong. They actually believe the Quran was compiled during the Prophet’s lifetime not later.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:19 pm
Bible:
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-06/world/ancient.bible.online_1_codex-sinaiticus-constantine-tischendorf-new-testament?_s=PM:WORLD
The world’s oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday — but the 1,600-year-old text doesn’t match the one you’ll find in churches today.
Discovered in a monastery in the Sinai desert in Egypt more than 160 years ago, the handwritten Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament.
The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten corrections — some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences.
And some familiar — very important — passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.
Juan Garces, the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years….
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:28 pm
“Juan Garces, the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years….”
I think HalalPork just had a heart attack. Quick! Someone call 911.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Pork:
“The Christian Scholars have the original ancient documenmts to prove the authenticity of the Bible.”
See above. The oldest Bible documents found were written 400 years after the founding of Christianity. The Sanaa manuscripts and Uthman quran were written within 50 years. There has been no evidence shown that the Sanaa manuscripts are different than todays Quran other than accusations by orientalists and apologists.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:49 pm
“Look at the conflict between SUNNIS and SHITES.Both call each other KAFIR.That is all because of Quran”
This means the Bible is responsible for the centuries long conflicts and disputes between catholics, eastern orthodox, protestants etc. They can’t even agree on what parts should be included in the Bible.
January 23rd, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Pork:
“The Muslims can never unite and agree on anything among themselves”
Unfortunately, I have to agree with pork and beans here. Imagine what Muslims can accomplish if we united and worked together. We could probably take over the world faster than we anticipated! lol
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:06 pm
Note the stupidity of HalalPork. He believes that we can “never unite and agree on anything” yet he also believes we are going to take over the world.
If we Muslims can overthrow you government despite all the divisions, poverty, illiteracy and corruption in the Muslim world then your government was crap to begin with and should be changed anyway.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:17 pm
Please Mo. Let’s not turn this into another Sanity/Facts/Reality/Coherence vs HalalPork thing. That’s what it wants.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:30 pm
Since Pork loves Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus#Text-type_and_relationship_to_other_manuscripts
Between the 4th and 12th centuries, seven or more correctors worked on this codex, making it one of the most corrected manuscripts in existence.[51] Tischendorf during his investigation in Petersburg enumerated 14 800 corrections only in the portion which was held in Petersburg (2/3 of the codex).[52] This implies that the full codex could have about 20 000 corrections. In addition to these corrections some letters were marked by dots as doubtful (e.g. ṪḢ). Corrections represent the Byzantine text-type, just like corrections in codices: Bodmer II, Regius (L), Ephraemi (C), and Sangallensis (Δ). They were discovered by Button.[53]
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:36 pm
The authenticity of the Bible,(the New Testament),can be questioned because it was written 700 years after the death of Christ. No such an un-certainity about the authenticity of the Qur’an can be honestly raised, because Othman ibn Affan,the Third Caliph of the Khulaf’a ‘Al-Rashedoon,who wrote and kept a record of the verses of the Qur’an as preached by The Prophet Muhammad and recited by the adherents of the faith,then,while The Prophet was still alive. It was Othman ibn Affan who accomplished the first Qur’an that was ever published in writing when he became the Caliph,Third Caliph,after the death of The Prophet.
A few years ago(not more than 20 or 30 years.I cannot recall exactly),a version of the Qur’an was discovered written by the handwriting of Othman ibn Affan. It was a big news in the whole Islamic world. I was stationed then in Amman,Jordan,when I read the news in several Jordanian daily news papers like “Al Rai” and “Ad-Dustour”.
If anyone wants to question the authenticity of the Qur’an,it would be a waste of time,because the Qur’an was and is authentic. Even the most bias knowledgeable Christians admit that and even acknowledge that it is more authentic than their own bible. In fact,about four years ago,I was involved in a debate about Islam and Christianity with two persons: a man who was an evangelical-reborn-again-Christian and a woman who was an Atheist. The evangelical-reborn-again-Christian admitted to me,during the debate,that the Qur’an was/is more authentic than the Bible,(New Testament),because of the time differential in putting each in print. For an evangelical-reborn-again-Christian to admit that,and especially in a debate,is something rare,but yet,one has to admire the honesty of the Christian debater,indeed.
January 23rd, 2011 at 8:46 pm
It appears that Pork has found himself stuck neck deep in pig sh!t once more. Looking forward to the internet crusader’s next incoherent response.
January 23rd, 2011 at 9:08 pm
LOL, Halalpork’s a serious loon. His/her(?) comments display not a single ounce of sense. And it’s amazing! I’m really stunned at how crazy or skewed a person’s perception of reality can be. Scientists should study you! I’m incredibly curious as to how your mind works… and what you see with your eyes, and hear with your ears. And then I’d really like to see how your brain processes all that Information. I’m sorry Halalpork, you simply have made no sense at all. And the thing is, you are so adamant about it. I don’t even get mad or upset at the crazy things you say anymore. I’m just genuinely curious about your mode of perception and your thought-processes. It’s really AMAZING (and I say that with much candour) how you have the ability to block information from even seeping in somehow.
January 24th, 2011 at 1:16 am
“The authenticity of the Bible,(the New Testament),can be questioned because it was written 700 years after the death of Christ. No such an un-certainity about the authenticity of the Qur’an can be honestly raised…”
How was the new Testament written 700 years after Christ? You’ve lost me…..
And how is the authenticity of the Quran certain?
January 24th, 2011 at 1:39 am
With due respect to both books (Bible and Quran) neither of them can be proved to be authentic and true. One has to make a leap of faith to believe either of them.
January 24th, 2011 at 2:44 am
With due respect to both books (Bible and Quran) neither of them can be proved to be authentic and true. One has to make a leap of faith to believe either of them.
It may take a leap of faith to believe either of them are from God, but in terms of authenticity, it is simply an historical reality that the Qur’an has been virtually consistent throughout its history.
January 24th, 2011 at 4:22 am
If one considers Quran to be authentic,although as per wikipedia on Quran,it is not,still you can not deny that it was inspired by SATAN.What about the SATANIC verses inspired to Mohammad and admitted by him?The book is all about SEX and VIOLENCE and HATRED with addional distorted stories from the Holy BIBLE and the PAGAN SOURCES.Read Sura 25 again and you will find that the contemporary ARABS told Mohammad that they had heard all those stories before.Get a copy opf debate between Dr.Morey and Shabir Ally where Ali is literally slaughtered and acknowledges the defeat because the lie can not stand the truth.I have a video copy of that debate.You can get a copy,if you cotact Dr.Robert Morey on web site.Taka a chance to face the truth.
January 24th, 2011 at 4:37 am
“Take a chance to face the truth.”
Rich. :]
January 24th, 2011 at 6:37 am
harampork: The book is all about SEX and VIOLENCE and HATRED with addional distorted stories from the Holy BIBLE
Are you talking about Ezekiel 23?
January 24th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Lol. I would publish the quote from Ezekiel 23 here but I find it to be a little too explicit. There might be children reading this site!
Anyway, the Bible deals with sexual themes more often and in more explicit ways than the Quran. This is not an insult to Christians but refutation fo HalalPork’s claim that the Quran is a book of sex and the Bible is not.
HalalPork is like one of those dumb Christian extremist missionaries with horrendously flawed arguments and ends up getting pwned by Dr. Zakir Naik.
January 24th, 2011 at 10:49 am
“Get a copy opf debate between Dr.Morey and Shabir Ally where Ali is literally slaughtered”
Sure. Keep telling yourself that. That was the debate in which Robert Morey was exposed for making up a Hadith.
I think you might want to read this:
http://shabirally.wordpress.com/category/debates-with-robert-morey/
January 24th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
What about the SATANIC verses inspired to Mohammad and admitted by him?
- The account of the Satanic verses is nothing more than an unsourcced documented rumor that is unfounded, and both internally and externally inconsistent with the already well-established chronology as well as the related events.
Furthermore, this story only appears in collections that didn’t do any substantial cross-examination on it. There is absolutely no reason to even entertain this story as being true.
Also, Dr. Robert Morey’s work promoting his absurd moon-god theory, has already been debunked, so don’t even bother with that:
islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html
January 24th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
Pork still stuck in pig sh!t:
“still you can not deny that it was inspired by SATAN.”
Sure. Satan apparently tells Muslim over and over again to pay the poor rate, to pray to One God, not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to murder, etc. Here are the 10 commandments in the Quran again for your viewing pleasure:
http://www.quran.org.uk/articles/ieb_quran_10commandments.htm
More inspiration, supposedly by satan:
[17:31] You shall not kill your children due to fear of poverty. We provide for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a gross offense.
[17:32] You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behavior.
[17:33] You shall not kill any person – for GOD has made life sacred – except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.
[17:34] You shall not touch the orphans’ money except for their own good, until they reach maturity. You shall fulfill your covenants, for a covenant is a great responsibility.
[17:35] You shall give full measure when you trade, and weigh equitably. This is better and more righteous.
Crucial Advice
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
[17:37] You shall not walk proudly on earth – you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains.
[17:38] All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord.
Perhaps Pork should really listen to 17:36.
He has already been shown the violent nature of the Bible, and has been shown the current Bible isn’t authentic even when compared to the oldest manuscripts dated 400 years after Christ. Under sheer desperation, he pulls out the Satan card which has been easily squashed with sound logic and reasoning. What will the pork squeal next?
January 24th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Satan, according to pork, apparently telling Muslims not to follow him:
[2:168] O people, eat from the earth’s products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.
[2:169] He only commands you to commit evil and vice, and to say about GOD what you do not know.
Satan, according to pork, apparently hates alcohol and gambling:
[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, “In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit.” They also ask you what to give to charity: say, “The excess.” GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,
Either Satan is an idiot, or HalalPork is an idiot.
January 24th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
Very interesting:
(Mark 3:21-26)
Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
January 24th, 2011 at 11:41 pm
Again for Pork:
Bible:
“And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.”
Quran:
[2:168] O people, eat from the earth’s products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy
Since Pork believes that the Quran was inspired Satan even when the it is aggressively opposed to Satan, this must mean Pork opposes the teachings of Jesus.
January 26th, 2011 at 10:27 am
In addition to what Rob quoted:
No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation): It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it. (Qur’an 26:210-212)
January 26th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Thanks Awesome. Unfortunately, the pork won’t be joining us here. He’s busy making a pigsty in a new post to frolic.
January 26th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Hate to break it to Porky piglet here, but Shabbir Ally has repeatedly and systematically taken down most of the opponents he has debated.
Robert Morey is anti-Islam group’s Dan Brown: a silly conspiracy theorist with ‘Moon god’ fantasies…:P
January 27th, 2011 at 7:43 pm
Morey’s moon-god fantasies represent an unspoken view that is somewhat popular (yet at the same time unfounded) among certain Jews and Christians; that God is theirs and theirs alone.
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:02 am
Petro, I think you kinda missed the point of the article having flicked through yours… the title says it all.
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:17 am
And I think it would be nice if LW actually went and debated them rather than deleted the comments…