I hope more and more women protest for their freedom of religion. Has anyone thought that maybe it isn’t face veils that are oppressive but the laws themselves that try to restrain people from practicing their religious beliefs?
On the heels of the French ban it looks like Canada may follow suit. The piece below unfortunately cites the Muslim Canadian Congress, an organization founded by the loon Tarek Fateh, which has near no credibility amongst Canadian Muslims.
Should Canada ban Islamic face veils?
by: Wency Leung
France’s ban on Islamic face veils came into force today, and already, at least two veiled women have reportedly been detained for protesting the new law.
The ban, which carries a fine of 150 euros ($207), has reignited the debate over where to draw the line between protecting a nation’s values and ensuring individuals’ freedom of expression.
Those supporting the ban say the veils oppress women and don’t fall in line with the country’s values of gender equality. Under France’s new law, anyone who forces women to wear a veil can face up to a year in prison and a fine 30,000 of euros.
But others, including some women who wear the veils themselves, believe the ban infringes on their freedom of religion and smacks of anti-Islamic sentiment.
In Canada, calls to introduce a similar ban have also prompted heated debate. For years, the Muslim Canadian Congress has urged for an end to the practice of wearing face-concealing niqabs and burkas, arguing the veils aren’t required under Islam, but are rather symbols of religious extremism and misogyny.
Canadian women who say they choose to wear the veils, however, argue that far from oppressing them, the face coverings guard their modesty.
Here, as in France, those who actually wear the veils are few.
Should Canada consider following France’s lead? Or would doing so put unfair restrictions on a minority?
April 11th, 2011 at 10:33 am
FFS people, focus on what”s important and stop telling people what to wear
April 11th, 2011 at 10:50 am
Its just 1 in a series of laws designed to target muslims. First its this, then it’ll be halal meat, as is the case atm in the Netherlands – which probably won’t happen because it targets Jews as well.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:08 am
Cover your face = bad, bad, bad.
Invade other countries on false pretexts = good, good, good
April 11th, 2011 at 11:28 am
“FFS people, focus on what”s important and stop telling people what to wear”
Try telling that to conservative Muslims who want Toronto to look like Peshawar or Kabul.
Why don’t these Canadian women who want to wear the veils go move to Saudi Arabia instead? Isn’t it haram to live among the “dirty kuffar” to begin with, as many nutjob niqaabis often claim.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:37 am
Hey marco, are you also against a forced dress code for women in some Muslim countries as well? If you don’t speak out against that either, then you are essentially a hypocrite.
If Muslim countries ban miniskirts, then European countries are within their rights to ban the burkha/niqaab. If these women don’t want to live amongst non-Muslims (which face it, a lot of niqaabis are ALWAYS present at extremist protests in London organized by al-Muhajiroun) then they can get a one-way plane ticket to their Muslim country of choice. Hijab is enough for them, so why do they want to shove their extremist interpretation of the Islamic faith on others?
To many, even among many Muslims, the burkha/niqaab is a symbol of Taliban oppression, and there are quite a few Muslims in Europe who think the Taliban are fine and dandy since oppression is okay as long as Islam is established to them.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Look up. The troll is back.
Just because a group has a website, does not mean it is credible. How many books does T-fat sell in a year to Muslims…about maybe 10? He has no credibility in his own community. In fact, all the self-hating Muslim groups are validated by racist white people. No one of any intellectual credibility cares what they have to say.
BTW, the organization is probably in trouble. I clicked on the donation button on their website, and it stated they cannot receive payments at this time. A well run organization indeed. Looks like they needed to voice something outrageous to get people to donate to them.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Hey jacque, the niqaab is not required in Islam so why should they act like victims? To me, the only ones who are being extreme are stubborn Muslims who move to a non-Muslim country and not bother to integrate. These are the same retards who think all non-Muslims are “dirty kuffar” and your denial isn’t going to make it go away. All they want to do is to exploit their hosts and force them to accommodate their lifestyles. Funny how none of the original Muslim guest workers wore a niqaab in the post-war years yet due to Saudi influence in the 80s and on, it has become a bit more prevalent.
And I’m not a fan of Tarek Fatah either so nice try in trying to make anyone who opposes the niqaab into an Islamophobe. Congrats on using similar tactics as pro-Israel nutters do when they call something anti-Semitic on something they don’t like.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Last week, the Syrian government unveiled the first of the promised reforms. So far, they’ve been … well, slight might be a kind way to refer to them. Citizenship was finally given to a large group of Kurds, a casino was closed and a ban on teachers wearing the niqab, the face veil, was rescinded. That last probably strikes many readers as hardly the sort of thing that should be greeted as a liberalizing reform. But, in my opinion, it is symbolic.
When westerners turn their eyes towards the Middle East and other Muslim societies, one of the first things that strikes them will often be the large number of women who cover. Often, in the west, the act of a woman covering her hair in public is seen as being indicative of oppression in general and even, as some westerners claim, ‘gender apartheid’. Is it?
I for one do not think so. I consciously considered myself as a feminist and as someone who believes in human rights and the equality of all. But I’m also an Arab and a Muslim. And I covered. Not once or twice but every time I was in public for well over a decade of my life. And no one made me do it; I chose it.
When I was a teenager, I found myself growing up between two cultures; that of the school year, when I attended a public high school in the American South, and that of home and the summer, when I would return to Damascus. I was a bit of a rebel, a bit headstrong and a bit confused. I struggled with issues many young women do: I battled with anorexia, severe depression, confusion and questioning my sexuality and gender identification, and the stress of moving between two worlds.
In Damascus during a particular hot summer day, I had climbed up to the roof of our house and was considering throwing myself from it. I was depressed over a lot of things, many that now seem silly in retrospect but, as I approached my 16th birthday, they seemed like insurmountable obstacles. Throwing myself down to the pavement far below seemed like a reasonable idea.
But I didn’t. Instead, I had a suddenly strong feeling that my life was worth more than that and that, no matter what happened, there was a power greater than myself, a God of the Universe who cared and was in charge of what ultimately happened. The world around me began to glow with a blue light coming from everywhere and all my troubles seemed to vanish. I didn’t kill myself … but instead found myself shouting “Eshaduwan la illaha illala wa Muhammadan rasool allah!” (I testify there is no God but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God).
If I had been Christian, one would, I suppose, call what had happened to me as being ’born again.’ Certainly, though I had been raised as a Muslim in an observant household and had learned to pray years earlier, I was hardly what one could call pious; like many teenagers who dye their hair blue, listen to punkrock, and read to much, I was at most sort of agnostic. All that changed for me, though, at that time when I felt the presence of God.
And, very soon after, I wanted to show outwardly what I had accepted inwardly. While I had never eaten pork, from now on, I would strive only to eat ‘clean’ hallal meat. I would try to pray five times a day at the appointed hours. I would really fast Ramadan. And, in the most obvious way, I’d let the world know that I now considered myself a devout Muslim. I would begin covering, not just when I was at prayer (as I had always done and as my mother did) but any time that I was in public. They would know me as a Muslim at a glance.
So, that day, I tied a scarf around my hair when I left the house. With it, I felt myself empowered as I walked through the streets. No creepy stares from old men. Pleasant smiles and nods from strangers; other covered women seemed automatically to recognize me as one of their own. I felt instantly as though I belonged to an elite international sisterhood of women.
In the days and weeks that followed, my covering steadily improved as I became more skilled in tying up my hair and concealing it before I’d go out. And the scarf was like a passport to a new world; suddenly, I found myself recruited by an elite sisterhood of Muslim women, working on raising the standards of the society. There, I found fellowship, sisterhood and a best friend. And my faith and commitment steadily grew stronger.
I returned to the USA and my parents were startled by my new appearance; the gothed out girl who’d flown to Syria a few months earlier had come back as a Muslim woman (I’d also incidentally grown my last few inches that summer). I knew that they weren’t sure what to make of it; on the one hand, they were certainly happy that I was less ‘troubled’ and more devout (as any parents of a teen would be) and, on the other, they weren’t completely thrilled that I was marking myself out in America.
I started a new school and my cousin – who had also started covering – and I began trying to create the sort of Muslim Sisterhood we had known in Damascus. At first, it was just the two of us but quickly we built a circle of other teen-aged Muslim girls and promoted the religion and devotion within it. Meanwhile, our dress steadily got more conservative. At first, we were wearing jeans and long-sleeve shirts with our scarves; after another summer in Syria, we were dressing like full blown religious: long monochrome coats and scarves neatly knotted, ceasing to wear make up … my dearest friend from Damascus gave steady advice (she was older and more advanced) and, when she eventually visited us, we were already looking as true devotees.
Of course, being a severe Muslim young woman in a suburban American high school made for challenges. We took it as a point of pride that we did not date and had as little as possible to do with men. (Of course, that was easier for some of us than for others; I remember severely chastizing a young woman for holding hands with a boy) We harassed Muslim shopkeepers who sold alcohol and pornography. We moved as a group and built each other up. It was empowering.
And my hijab was, to me, the sign of my empowerment. I had been a scared little mouse before it; now I was bold and fearless, outspoken and forthright. I told off teachers and backsliding Muslims with equal ease.
I wasn’t the only one, of course; in those same years, the number of Muslim women who covered skyrocketed. When I was a small child in Syria, there were very few women who covered at all. Once, the political police had taken it into their heads to eliminate that as part of the effort to enforce French-style secularism; they starting stopping cars with covered women in them and pulled the women out, forcing them to strip in the road. That sort of attitude only fired defiance and memories of colonial rule; my own grandmother, during the French Mandate, had been walking alone when a French gendarme forcibly removed scarf and veil from her, demanding a kiss. That sort of behavior had inspired nationalist uprisings; when I was a child and the government did it, it inspired Syrian muslims to revolt,
But, by the end of the 1980’s, the government had stopped enforcing its views on women’s dress and more and more women had begun to dress in Islamic style. While the Islamic revival began spreading from one end of the countries to the other, it was slower in Syria due to the government’s hostility but it still occurred as more and more women began to choose to send a subtle message against the oppression of the state through their dress. When I started covering, we were style very much a minority but, in the years since then, dressing “Islamically” has become more and more common. What was once a bold political statement has become the ‘usual’ thing. And, of course, the severe fashions of the past are now mixed in with high fashion and ‘sexy’ hijab looks …
Some who wanted to send a clear religious message went further; where once a simple scarf marked a woman as religious, when it became mainstream, more severe fashions were called for. Some women who had lived in the Gulf States brought veiling back with them when they returned to Syria. And women who wanted to state boldly that they were religious sometimes picked up the new style. My cousin did …
Meanwhile, for myself, my own views changed over time. I went back and examined the verses of the Quran referring to covering. I asked myself what was the purpose in covering. Was it supposed to be a way of showing others how religious we were, the way that we had understood it? If that was so, how was one to show devotion in a Muslim society? And, whether in extreme secularist ruled Muslim countries or in the West, why was it that Muslim men saw the right for women to cover as a necessity? While there are male dress codes in Islam, they are not nearly as so obvious. The reality is that by asking young women to bear the emblem of the community we are asking a lot …
And it occurred to me that that wasn’t what the actual teaching was; the actual teaching was about modesty and not showing off. If I were making a display of my religiosity, I was hardly being modest. And, if I covered and were not the most devout and chaste woman, would I not be making a mockery of the modesty I was claiming?
So I took my hijab off and, nowadays, only cover when at prayer or when it’s cold or the situation requires.
Yet, looking back, I still see my decision to cover as a fundamentally feminist act. No man – not my father, not my brother, not my husband, not my imam – ever made me cover and no man made me uncover. I did both myself. It was an act between me and my God (a God who lies beyond and above gender). And when I hear men, whether far-right racist rabblerousers in Europe and America or far-right fundamentalist preachers in Iran and Saudi Arabia, saying that it is their choice what I can or cannot put on my head, I am angry. I am angry when either group of withered men try and tell women what to do. I am tired of both groups fighting over us, Muslim women, and our bodies while insisting we have no say in the matter.
For me and the women I know, though, no one made us cover, no one made us uncover. Our heads, our choice!
April 11th, 2011 at 11:54 am
If they were going to ban the hijab in Canada I would be among the first to protest, FYI.
April 11th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Dan, what Muslims countries besides Saudi Arabia and Iran ban Mini skirts? As far as I know, I’ve seen some Pakistani women wearing mini-skirts and sleeveless/backless tops many times. Also, please note that niqabi women are not necessarily extremists. I happen to personally know of some including some cousins of mine.They’re extremely friendly and simply believe in their right to dress conservatively. What is wrong with that?? Europeans were okay with dressing anyway you want and as a result, many niqabis moved their to enjoy the privileges given there. So what gives?? Why make these changes now?? Is it to kick out Muslims from their country?? Really Dan, let’s be fair here.
April 11th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
@Dan, Just FYI: According to some opinions within the diversity of schools of thought in Islam, niqab is considered mandatory. And I am not arguing for or against it (my personal opinion is irrelevant). I’m simply stating that if women believe they are obligated to wear it, and it’s a legitimate position in the religious tradition, then who can say otherwise?
April 11th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
Beautiful Post Amina! No one has a right to force us to either cover or uncover! It’s between God and me.
April 11th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Dan: ”If Muslim countries ban miniskirts, then European countries are within their rights to ban the burkha/niqaab.”
If Saudi Arabia won’t let its women vote we are well within our rights to stop our women voting!
April 11th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
The women who wear the niqab genuinely feel that they are following a religious commandment by doing so, so why should they have to move because of that. Last I checked, your right to remain in a country was did not depend on your style of clothing.
We could take the most oppressive Muslim countries as inspiration for how we do things here, but like Link182 said, that style of thinking isn’t practical.
If a woman decides, by herself, to wear the face veil, then I see no reason why the government should try and stop her.
I’ve heard plenty of Muslims say that Muslim women should not wear the veil in non-Muslim countries to ease the social tensions. I agree but all we can do is recommend not force. Just like it’s a bad idea to force a woman to wear a niqab, it’s a bad idea to force a woman to remove it.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
Dan, I think T-fat is your nut to butt buddy.
Give yourself a hug Dan. Love yourself.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Dan if a woman want to wear it she should be able to. If a man is forcing her to, then that is another story, But don’t take away her right to do so. She has a right to follow an “extremist” version of Islam as long as she doesn’t impose it on others. There is a verse in The Quran which says something like this:
“O Prophet, tell your wives and all believeing women, to not be recognised when they go out”
You can only be recognised by your face, that is why some schools of thought (minority) think it mandatory to cover the face. The Taliban maybe do so for other reasons, (cultural which were there before Islam) and use Islam as a cover.
and just because Pakistan and Saudi Arabia abuse the rights of minorities, and force them to dress in a certain manner doesn’t mean you have to do likewise in other countries. Rise above their sick culture, they often use Islam to justify their own bigotry and nasty culture.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
“If Saudi Arabia won’t let its women vote we are well within our rights to stop our women voting!”
LOL. The logic of these idiots is very profound, isn’t it? “Let’s make Saudi Arabia our standard for religious and secular freedom!” But wait, isn’t that an evil “Moozlim” country!? Have our bigoted friends been secret Muslims practicing “taqiyya” all this time?! Who do we trust??!?!?!
April 11th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Many years ago I emailed Tarek Fatah to ask about the funding of his MCC organization. His reply was that he wasn’t accountable to anybody including the Muslim community he claimed to represent. T-Fat(I was the first to call him that) the failed immigrant politician has been collaborating with the neocons for years so his anti-Islamic propaganda is hardly surprising. The man is a dispicable coward who ran away from debate after declaring no imam would dare take him on :
http://tinyurl.com/3q2zn64
and then lied about it on his Facebook page despite evidence to the contrary :
http://tinyurl.com/3jh5bcf
Did I mention that he was on FOX with Gaffney and Spencer?
Glad to see Dan the troll get schooled(you’d think after spending so much here he would have gone beyond the usual failed cliched talking points).
@Amina
Salam Aliakum, and jazakallah khair for sharing your story, sister. While I don’t agree with everything you posted it was still very enlightening to read. Your sharp mind would benefit from Sheikh Imran Hosein’s(who has reservations of the niqab) awesome presentation on the Philosophy of Gender in Islam.
As far as the Saudis(secular yet who masquerade as religious) are concerned, keep in mind, they are amongst the worst enemies of Islam(people who know of Khilafah know what I mean). Western secularists, or should I say supremacists need to be put in their place, their sick, colonial, racial obsession with Muslim women has absolutely nothing to do with human rights whatsoever. It’s all about a power trip(and a very useful distractor) intertwined with a fear of emerging racial and religious demographic which their secularism could not stop.
None of the women in my immediate family wear niqab or burka but will fight tooth and nail for those that do.
April 11th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Well said sister anima! You tell em!
April 11th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Sorry, fingers like bananas and using an I phone.
I meant to say sister amina!
April 11th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
My favourite religious text is “Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance”. Yet when I go into a bank I have to remove my helmet. This is religious discrimination at its worst. I should be able to freely experience Zen everywhere I go. What do they think I am going to do in a bank? Rob it?
April 11th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
@Farlowe: does your religious text command you to wear your motorcycle helmet at all times in public?
April 11th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Its funny how all these Canadian newspapers and media outlets reach out to “Muslim Canadian Congress” for all Islamic/Moslem related issue. Not knowing they dont represent even 1% of Muslim support in Canada.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
murderers are called soldiers, victims are called terrorists, modest women are banned from displaying their modesty(read hijab/niqab) and naked women are awarded for their indecency(read beauty contests/fashion shows), building places of worship is objected, gambling dens, strippers club are built peacefully, dictators who murder a few hundred or a even a few thousands are hanged BUT leaders directly responsible for murder of millions are applauded for their ‘heroic’ efforts! shackled prisoners are abused likie animals, children are raped, cities are bombed, muslims are blamed (read framed) nations are plundered, greed of oil has led to spilling of blood endlessly, ….and the whole world is embroiled in debates about the NIQAB OF A POOR MUSLIM FAITHFUL WOMAN & the minarets of a yet to be built masjid! SHAME ON THESE WICKED LEADERS for their hypocrisy and bigotry.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
To my friend ‘Dan’
You asked why Canada should not ban the viel because Saudi Arabia bans ‘mini skirts’
First you have 2 problems with that sort of thinking.
The first is, a free independant nation like Canada claims to be, does not base it’s concept of freedom and democracy on other nations, or what they do. That is exactly what ‘freedom means’…not to have to appease or appeal to someone else. So, comparing yourself to Saudi Arabia is taking away your independance.
Secondly ‘Dan’ there are only 4 nations in the world that blanketly restrict ot deny a woman’s right to choose what they wear. They are…Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belgiam, and France.
I want you to tell me what the difference is…between denying or restricting what a woman might choose to wear, and forcing her to wear something she doesnt want to wear.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
@Farlowe: It’s a great book!
(sorry for the o/t comment)
April 11th, 2011 at 9:29 pm
“My favourite religious text is “Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance”. Yet when I go into a bank I have to remove my helmet. This is religious discrimination at its worst. I should be able to freely experience Zen everywhere I go. What do they think I am going to do in a bank? Rob it?”
Not even remotely the same context.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
I was being a little facetious. I dont believe in banning any head coverings for religious or cultural reasons (even if they look really silly like in “Father Ted”). I think there is a case for banning face coverings for security reasons. e.g. face coverings in a bank or money exchanging places can be used by criminals to hide identity during a robbery. There actually have been “burka disguises” used in bank robberies (most probably by non muslims). I have to take off my helmet in a bank otherwise the bank staff get a little twitchy. So IMHO security reasons for a ban are fair enough. And ….. “Zen” is my favourite book
April 11th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
I don’t kno what all the buzz is about, I always visit my local Russian Mafia Loan Sharks with a balaclava on. They don’t say a thing and money is being exchanged there also. Well maybe it’s got to do with the fact that they are armed to the teeth.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:19 am
Hey Dan, and other people here !
Niqab didnt start with Saudi Arabia, jewish women wore it themselves throughout history !
Furthermore, muslims under ottoman empire wore it, in the Balkan where I am, my grandmothers from both parents wore black niqab, Tito the communist ruler banned them in 1950s I think !
This is debunking the argument that so called saudi money started extremism, in other words–if you dont like Islam, you call it extremism as more politically correct method !
Prophet’s wives wore niqab, what these laws say to us is that, if the prophet came with his women to visit, they wouldn’t let him in !
And they say they’re aren’t against Islam ?!?!
hahaha, amazing
April 12th, 2011 at 12:36 am
DAn said:
“These are the same retards who think all non-Muslims are “dirty kuffar” and your denial isn’t going to make it go away”
1) Prejudice at work, did you conduct a pole research on what they think ?!
2) AS I said previously, wives of the prophet wore niqab !!! So are you calling the prophet’s wives retards ?!?!?!
3) When the prophet whose wives wore the niqab, made a constitution in Medina with jews, Canada and Secularism didn’t exist !!!
Please enlighten us with your secular democratic logic ?!
April 12th, 2011 at 12:41 am
Tarek Fatah is the greatest anti-muslim person in Canada.
He has no crediblity within the muslim community here.
He has a lot of support in the anti-muslim loon community. In fact muslims here call his organization
“muslim canadian congress”,mounafik canadian congress.
Many of my muslims friends despise him. Reading his facebook wall will be the quick way of concluding his fascination of demonizing muslims.
As a christian i pray for his recovery.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:34 am
Farlowe,
You seem to be amusing that traditional jurists did not take context into consideration with regard to the niqab. If so, your assumption is wrong. For instance, if a woman who wore the niqab was called to be a witness, she could remove the niqab so her identity was established. Since I am not a jurist, I will definitely not draw an analogy between entering a bank and being a witness. This is an ijtihadi matter for jurists. However, a precedent obviously seems to exist for these types of security related accommodations.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:37 am
interesting video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9yxXhOJet0
April 12th, 2011 at 2:26 am
Ibster The banning of the face covering in France sounds like it is based on cultural and religious grounds. If so then I totally disagree with the ban.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:45 am
but in canada with temperatures touching -30C during the winter you have no other choice but to cover all of your face unless you want your nose to get chopped off because of frostbite.;)
so where do you draw the line??
April 12th, 2011 at 3:08 am
I am complaining here because it is currently 5C and I am cold and I cant wear my short pants! Maybe a full bodied covering is not a bad idea in minus 30C :-{}
April 12th, 2011 at 3:58 am
Fair enough, Farlowe.
Ps. “amusing” = assuming. I would blame it on my iPhone’s spellcheck but since I wasn’t using it…
April 12th, 2011 at 5:57 am
@Farlowe: And it hasn’t even hit winter yet!
April 12th, 2011 at 6:46 am
I think mini skirts and tight tops should be banned because it’s too distracting for the drivers and could cause accidents. Safety is our #1 priority!:/
April 12th, 2011 at 7:01 am
Khushboo, perhaps we should ban children from dressing up on Halloween. You know, because it’s hard to identify them and whatnot…
Banning burqas for security reasons is a different thing, because it is understandable and a reasonable idea, but all of these burqa bans are based on Islamophobia and the false belief that ripping the face veil off women will immediately integrate all Muslims into society.
April 12th, 2011 at 7:23 am
I know that at airports here in the US, they have women check other women wearing burqas or veils for security purposes so there are other alternatives. I think that France and Canada is just using Security as an excuse. I think their agenda is really forcing Muslims wearing niqabs/hijabs out b/c they think they’re radicals. What happened to “don’t judge a book by its cover”??
April 12th, 2011 at 10:22 am
between just to correct suleyman, the quranic verse is actually “”O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed…” (Qur’an 33:59)
April 12th, 2011 at 10:33 am
I think this is just a political issue
only 1000/2000 women actually were the niqab
plus they categorized this as a secularist issue not a security issue
If they were worried about security just bring a female cop to identify the niqabi
there are many things that are not required in islam but muslims still do it
saying that it can be banned because it is not really required in islam is the wrong way to think about it
praying in mosques for regular prayers, fasting extra, giving extra zakat are all not really required in Islam (get the point I am trying to make)
to me being too lax in religion is just as dangerous as being super strict in religion the prophet did not say that wearing the niqab is more what he required for his followers
as muslims we should follow the laws of the land and hopefully there is no sinister motive behind this proposition
April 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
@Sameel
Yes, thank you!
April 12th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Amina A, is that a piece you wrote?
April 12th, 2011 at 8:24 pm
How many Muslim women in Canada actually wear a niqab or burqa? Probably far less than 1%, just like in France. Last time I visited I saw headscarves but no one covering their face.
April 13th, 2011 at 1:04 am
Yes
April 13th, 2011 at 7:17 am
DAn… According to your logic, Muslim countries should now fine european ladies for not adhering to the islamic dress code when visiting!
Now there is an idea!!!
April 13th, 2011 at 7:25 am
Dan… BTW I do agree that the Niqaab is not part of real Islamic Tradition which merely required that we dress with modesty and not flaunt our ‘naughty bits’. As a Muslim I do see the wearing of the full face covering as an interpolation and more relating to an aspect of tribal/patriachal mindset unrelated to Moslem Tradition.
April 13th, 2011 at 7:44 am
^I don’t know about that. There are many schools of thought and we need to respect them as long as they’re not forcing their views on us.
April 13th, 2011 at 9:42 am
I have trouble finding justification for the niqab in Islam. I understand modesty and how the Prophet’s (PBUH) wives dressed, but it seems to me that the hijab would be more then sufficient
April 13th, 2011 at 9:52 am
In many ways, the niqab can become a bad choice. Most niqab wearing women have good intentions. They want to do more than what is required to “get closer to Allah”. However, we sometimes see some arrogance develop when some niqabis insist that it’s a requirement and begin to look down on the women just wearing hijab. Or they begin to feel superior and more pious. As always, it’s what’s inside that counts.
Even amongst non-Muslim niqab wearers we see this attitude:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7919501/Israeli-rabbis-clamp-down-on-burka.html
April 13th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Some niqabis do look down upon us but then some of us judge them too. If they feel strongly about wearing it, then who are we to judge? My cousins and I argued about this many times and we all lost.
April 13th, 2011 at 1:36 pm
I found a post on another Islamic board I frequent to be spot on.
“It’s a secular westernized country. In fact France is infamous and notorious for being one of the biggest giants of Westernized Culture.
When you think of the most westernized, sexiest, gayest, flamboyant nation of Europe and the Western World, you always think of France.
So for those people who are suppose to be Islamic, religious, pious, PERFECT Muslims, why the hell would you go to such a “sinful” society to begin with ?????
You see these people are not Muslims that wear the niqab. Most of them are charlatans. They want the best of both worlds.
1. They want the wealth of France for their own families.
2. They want to maintain “Islamic” lifestyle.
So here’s the problem. These people left their nations because they don’t want a smaller income. So they are materialist and greedy to begin with.
Then they have the audacity to impose their BS onto others. The niqab is not applicable for French society.
French people expect everything to be colorful and open. This is just in compatible.
Even if they wanted to ban hijab, they have the right to, because the country is theirs.
But they are fair, and they didn’t say hijab. They just said niqab because it’s hard to identify people, people can hide things down there, they can use it for crimes (e.g. bomb attacks).
These are all valid reasons. So France, its govt. its people, its culture, must be respected. It is their country, that’s the bottom line. ”
Basically, the only hypocrites are the niqaabis who want to have their cake and eat it. Ain’t gonna work here.
April 13th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
I think that guy is just bitter he didn’t get a visa. He goes on a rant about France being “westernized, sexiest, gayest, flamboyant” (an exaggeration but sometimes they do go overboard with the nudity) and then concludes by respecting their decision?
Huh?
April 13th, 2011 at 7:48 pm
“Even if they wanted to ban hijab, they have the right to, because the country is theirs.”
Awesome. So Arab countries have the right to do all the horrible things you say they do, because hey, its their country!
April 13th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Dan, how do you REALLY know what the niqabis want? Who are we to judge them? Even people without niqabs can smuggle in illegal things. Security excuse is just B.S. Like I said before, female police officers can check these niqabis if it’s a security issue. There are other alternatives. No one has a right to tell others whether to cover or not cover!
I loved going to France because it was a beautiful country full of delicious food, beautiful clothes, great art and culture, not because it’s vulgar. Now I can’t think of going there b/c I’m disgusted with this veil ban!
April 14th, 2011 at 12:54 am
“Dan, how do you REALLY know what the niqabis want? Who are we to judge them?”
I have negative experiences with niqaabis, for one. They are a bunch of hypocrites who bash other Muslims, have sectarian bigotry (I’ve seen what they have written about Shi’ites personally), their support of the Lal Masjid scum (who were also, surprise surprise, veiled as well), and think they are morally superior to others and claim they are modest by covering themselves in a ridiculous fashion. They want to live in a sinful society yet they still want to retain their ridiculous customs. If they want to live such an “Islaamic” lifestyle, then why not move to Saudi Arabia or the tribal areas of Pakistan instead of living amongst the “dirty kuffar” anyways?
It’s hard for me to take a niqaabi seriously because they are nothing but clowns. They want to act like victims in the West yet on their homefront they would not hesitate to forcibly veil all women just like their hero Asiya Andrabi of Dukhtaran-e-Millat has tried to do in Kashmir by throwing acid on the faces of women who defied their “diktat” 10 years ago.
“Even people without niqabs can smuggle in illegal things. Security excuse is just B.S. Like I said before, female police officers can check these niqabis if it’s a security issue. There are other alternatives. No one has a right to tell others whether to cover or not cover!”
Go tell that to Russians who often suffer terrorist attacks at the bodies of veiled Chechen women who think blowing themselves up in crowded subway stations and airport terminals is going to bring liberation in the Caucasus.
“I loved going to France because it was a beautiful country full of delicious food, beautiful clothes, great art and culture, not because it’s vulgar. Now I can’t think of going there b/c I’m disgusted with this veil ban!”
But you have no problem going back to Pakistan even though it is a far worse place to be a minority than it is in France? So they won’t get to wear the niqaab? Boo hoo, come back when these niqaabis stop bashing Shi’ites and cease their embrace of extremist causes as they usually do.
Does that also mean you won’t visit Iran since they require the hijab to be worn? You make it seem like the French police are going to beat niqaabis for not adhering to the law. I’m sorry but I laugh at retarded Muslims who claim this is “oppression” yet cheerfully endorse throwing acid on the faces of women or murdering them for not wearing the niqaab in Pakistan and elsewhere. I’d rather get fined than to have acid thrown on my face by self-righteous niqaabis.
April 14th, 2011 at 1:02 am
And if France is so anti-Muslim then how come they allowed Khomeini to keep his turban and his robe while he was in the country?
April 14th, 2011 at 4:45 am
Dan, easy there boy. What’s with your ‘Dirty Kuffar’ being mentioned in almost every post of yours. Can you bread their minds? How do you know they are thinking ‘Dirty Kuffar’?
“And if France is so anti-Muslim then how come they allowed Khomeini to keep his turban and his robe while he was in the country?”
Wow, they allow turbans so they can’t be anti-Islamic. Your posts are usually filled with anti-muslim bigotry. You keep on banging on about retarded Muslims, well I’m pretty sick of your retarded name-calling.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:57 am
I meant ‘read their minds’ and not ‘bread their minds’ LOL!
April 14th, 2011 at 5:07 am
^True, a law against turban-wearing or niqabs doesn’t necessarily indicate that a country is anti-Muslim. Turkey banned Khomenei from wearing a Turban and the niqab is outlawed in Tunisia. If France has banned the niqab it doesn’t mean that Muslims are now afraid to leave their houses. They banned it with the knowledge that it wouldn’t affect most Muslims. But still, the ban came about purely because of recent anti-Muslim fear mongering and an attempt by the government to appease the far-right.
http://benatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Khomeini_Turkey.JPG
April 14th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
“Dan, easy there boy. What’s with your ‘Dirty Kuffar’ being mentioned in almost every post of yours. Can you bread their minds? How do you know they are thinking ‘Dirty Kuffar’?”
Go ask this white boy who uses the term all the time: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23939456-life-on-benefits-of-muslim-convert-who-criticised-uk-troops.do
I watched the BBC documentary and the women who are present in the al-Muhajiroun protests are often *gasp* niqaabis out in full force. Doesn’t seem to bother most people here.
“Wow, they allow turbans so they can’t be anti-Islamic. Your posts are usually filled with anti-muslim bigotry. You keep on banging on about retarded Muslims, well I’m pretty sick of your retarded name-calling.”
Cry me a river. Conservative Muslims harp on about liberal Muslims all the time and if they were in power they wouldn’t hesitate to execute liberal Muslims given the opportunity. Why don’t you go on MuslimMatters comments section and see all the hypocrites that whine about being persecuted in the West yet still complain about the immorality of Western society?
I don’t live in a dream world where all Muslims are free from criticism. Unlike other Muslims who are quick to condemn opportunists like Tarek Fatah yet say nothing about extremist goons who want to impose Shariah law forcibly on others, I have no qualms about calling both sides out. Tarek Fatah was and still is a POS for justifying the murder of the pregnant Egyptian woman in a German courtroom a couple of years ago. He is as bad as the hack Yvonne Ridley for calling Shamil Basayev a ‘shaheed’ for his disgusting role in the Beslan siege as well as calling Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as a preferred brother in Islam in the wake of the Amman bombings. You won’t see me condemn hijabis but I will have no problem calling out on the hypocrisy of niqaabis who want to have their cake and eat it, which doesn’t apply in the real world. Go make hijrah to a Muslim country of your choice if you want to practice your extreme “Islaamic” lifestyle (and yes I put that in quotes because they think wearing a tent over themselves makes them more pious and purer than others).
Ever notice how they whine about the right to wear the niqaab yet they never support Muslim women in Muslim countries who do NOT want to wear the niqaab? Wasn’t a female PM in Pakistan murdered by a fanatic that these niqaabis support because she didn’t cover her face?
April 14th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
I don’t think it’s a good idea to generalise. Some niqabis, like the one interviewed in the Aljazeera video below, have no problem being part of French society and still wearing the veil.
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/europe/2010/11/2010114105521442621.html
Not all niqabis are extremists and certainly not all female extremists are niqabis.
April 14th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
Muslim-majority countries like Turkey, Tunisia and Syria ban or restrict religious clothing for reasons different from France. In the former, a secular elite feels contempt for what they see as overly religious. In the latter, populist politicians are making full use of anti-Muslim bigotry.
April 15th, 2011 at 11:04 am
I live in Canada, and I haven’t heard anything about this recently. Unless, perhaps, some of the Quebec parties are proposing this. Quebec is the francophone province of Canada and in many things, including attitudes towards integrating immigrants and minorities, they follow France very closely. So if they are discussing banning niqab there, it’s because France did it first, and succeeded. Sad but true.
April 15th, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Wow Dan, I guess you’re calling me “retarded” now. I’m not offended since it’s coming from you. It was just a matter of time. Anyhoo, I went to Pakistan b/c I have FAMILY there which I know I’ve mentioned enough times. That doesn’t mean I support people throwing acid in the face. Give me a break! You’re still generalizing about Niqabis. You obviously had bad experience but please stop with your generalizations! In my experience, I never had problems with Niqabis. In fact, they go out of their way to be welcoming as long as you show them the same respect. There have been many more criminals w/o niqabs smuggling in drugs and girls, stealing, killing and raping women doncha know?
April 15th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
here is a jw article on a woman who was given a ticket for wearing a face veil http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/04/france-muslim-woman-ticketed-for-wearing-face-veil.html there is a comment that I find hilarious by sebastian who gives himself a pad on the back for doing a cross sign to two veiled women just walking on a sidewalk reading it I am very sure he does this on a daily basis and expects to get the medal of honor for harassing muslims, which I think should happen forget the people who died at d-day to liberate Europe give it to a guy who accomplishes the goal of being a a##hole to two veiled women who are probably still laughing at him.
April 16th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Dan, I don’t need to cry it’s you constantly bitching and whining on anything these Muslims do. You are going along the same lines as old Pork boy, the hatred for Pakistanis/Islam in your posts is evident. I don’t need to read your links either, to show me a white boy is uttering the words ‘Dirty Kuffar’, that is called generalisation and it’s what you’re always doing to Muslims be they conservative/liberal.
“Conservative Muslims harp on about liberal Muslims all the time and if they were in power they wouldn’t hesitate to execute liberal Muslims given the opportunity. Why don’t you go on MuslimMatters comments section and see all the hypocrites that whine about being persecuted in the West yet still complain about the immorality of Western society?”
Again, sweeping generalisation about conservative Muslims. I think you like to twist things a bit. Why do I need to go to a comments section on some Muslim website? And what do you mean by ‘see all the hypocrites that whine about being persecuted in the West still complain about the immorality of Western society’? And yes I do believe in the immorality in some parts of the West….and East.
April 16th, 2011 at 11:33 am
Sorry Khushboo, I wasn’t calling you retarded. It was a general comment and I’ll admit my posts in here were hotheaded and were mostly in the heat of the moment. I’m also guilty of that when I post on other sites where Islamophobia is the norm too. I could have made posts a bit more civil but sometimes topics like this get the best of me.
April 16th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Sam Seed shut up. Dan makes some good points, though I don’t agree with “dirty kuffar” usage. I also don’t think Dan hates Muslims. Don’t use that as a stick to beat him with, you’re saying that to intimidate him into silence, the same weapon Khushboo tried to use.
Don’t worry Dan. Khushboo is an apologist. She will call you non Muslim if you criticise Muslims. She desperately tried to make out that I was first an Islamophobe, failing that, she said Suleyman was probably fake. Sam Seed are you saying we should not criticise extremists and those who want to force their way of thinking onto others?
Apologise at once to Dan.
April 16th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Yesterday on Real Time Bill Maher stated that France should not ban the burqa. Irshad Manji was on the show and disagreed.
This contrasts with what Bill Maher said on his show when Salman Rushdie stopped by.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79tlz4n5Us
This tells me what a phony he is. Nothing he states should be taken seriously. Unfortunately, he has an audience that does.
April 16th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
^I’m hoping that Bill Maher is finally wisening up. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, even him.
Irshad Manji is full of hot air and seriously needs to chill!
April 16th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
Sillyman, it’s so funny how you twist my words around! First off, I don’t know Dan and that’s why I questioned him about his religion. Dan, very decent of you to apologize. Ofcourse I forgive you! I’m sorry I jumped to conclusion myself.
Sillyman, just because I disagree with you and defend Islam, not Muslims, does not make me an apologist. You have made some outrageous comments so naturally I’ll assume you’re an islamophobe. Again, I don’t really know you or your real name and like most of us, we use fake names like Khushboo. That’s what I meant by fake!
Maybe you could learn some decency from your friend Dan here. I’ll be waiting for your apology….
April 16th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Corey, I’m pretty sure JWers have an IQ of their shoe size or maybe they’re as old as their shoe size. No thanks to you I went there and was sickened by their juvenile comments. Thanks alot Corey! >:(
April 16th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
If anyone claims to defend Islam then does that by pretending that Muslims are not Muslims, then they are seriously deluded. Others can be forgiven for thinking they are apolgists or closet extremists because they want to pretend that Muslims cannot sin or be wrong.
A very ignorant and intolerant person would assume that all bad comments (read “outrageous”) would come from Islamophobes. Of course they cannot come from any other “…..phobes”
What is outrageous is when such people demand apologies!
April 16th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Ha! An intolerant calling another intolerant. Whatever Suley. I’ll talk to you when you grow up!
April 16th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
What made you think I was talking to you? Was it because what I said made you recognise yourself? I’m already grown up then, if I can make you recognise yourself.
Yes i’m intolerant of bigotry, and apologists for sinning Muslims. Call them Muslims, and call them out for their bad actions. But don’t pretend they are not Muslims, this shifts blame from them.
April 16th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
None of this would happen if people acted like adults and make their points nicely without calling people names…
Call people to the way with wisdom and fair preaching and argue in a way that is best? Hmm.. I seem to recall a certain book where this commandment is mentioned.
April 16th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
BTW, Suley, I searched b/c I don’t recall ever calling you an “islamophobe”. I don’t see where I called you that. You attacking Anj for his opinion is what annoyed me. You were the one being judgemental! I’m done now. I’ll listen to papa Mo.
April 17th, 2011 at 5:49 am
Pakistan is more progressive and liberal than France, women can wear shorts, skirts, burqas, niqabs, pants, jeans, chadors, anything they want. Even the transgendered referred to as “Hijras” in Pakistan roam around free everywhere.
I would prefer living in Pakistan to France, any time.
April 17th, 2011 at 8:05 am
^yup. That’s the first thing I said above. I was wondering where you were.
April 17th, 2011 at 9:45 am
Khushboo,
Thanks for thinking about me. I was attending my father in Pindi getting chemo and looking at the diversity of women’s clothes. I even saw a lot of hijras dressed in make up and bright clothes. I have never ever in US seen any transgendered species roaming around declaring themselves so freely.
I can say without any doubts now that Pakistan is really progressive than all western countries (where veil is being banned) or Arab coutries (where veil is being enforced).
Let the woman or the hijras or the gays or whoever dress the way they want!!
Let a woman wear what she wants to wear!!!
April 17th, 2011 at 10:28 am
AJ, is this your idea of Pakistan being progressive?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1414137.ece
A female MP shot by a vigilante religious fanatic for not wearing the veil, yes that’s so progressive.
I guess you also think the Lal Masjid veiled fanatics who threatened suicide bombings on parliament and kidnapped women who they thought were morally corrupt were also “progressive” too, right? Asiya Andrabi must your role model for other Muslim women to follow, especially since she hates Kashmiriyaat and considers herself an Arab even though she’s Kashmiri so therefore it’s mandatory to make Kashmir into Saudi Arabia, correct?
Let’s see if Michelle Obama can make a visit to Peshawar nowadays as the late Jacqueline Kennedy did with her husband in the early 60s without being draped in the burka, and then most people will find your point valid.
Pakistan is so progressive for women, that’s why it has a low literacy rate for females and a strong influence of mullahs that you would rather defend than condemn.
I’d rather be a female in France (where the niqaab is banned) or Iran (where the hijab is enforced) than to be a female (even worse as a non-Muslim female) in Pakistan. You’re delusional as always, AJ.
April 17th, 2011 at 10:41 am
AJ are you smoking magic mushrooms?
I havn’t been to the place you mention, but comparing Pakistan to France in terms of progressivenmess is a tad riduculous. Please tell me, that women can walk in a bikini in the street something that is common in the summer in Western capitals or bare breasted as they do in some European countries in the place you mention?
April 17th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Dan so whats the difference between a Mullah and you?
One demands that a woman cover up and you demand that she strip down. So don’t flatter yourself too much on your progressiveness.
Plus don’t fall for Dan’s propaganda too much. The guy although pretends to be a “Pakistani Muslim” but all the time either bashes Pakistan or Islam in each and every thread.
April 17th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
errr, walking in a bikini in the street or being bare breasted is not being progressive. The point AJ was trying to make was that France and Iran should not ban whatever we want to wear. Pakistan hasn’t put any restrictions on our clothes no matter what the crazies Dan mentioned have done.
Sadly, France has now restricted rights and it’s unfair for those living there for many years allowed to cover up before. They can’t just up and leave when France is their home. I feel sorry for these people. Why punish them for what they strongly believe?!
April 17th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
AJ, I don’t see why you should get so incredibly butthurt every time Dan posts. So the guy is a bit too critical, and makes some pretty large generalizations at times. At least he admits that he posts in anger, and apologized. Also, most of his points are not at all invalid. So, can you please stop popping up every time Dan posts a comment?
April 17th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Thank you Cynic, it’s high time hypocritical Muslims were called to task. There are serious problems in the Muslim world, and we Muslims should be at the forefront of criticism and condemning them.
April 17th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
Actually Cynic, Dan popped up in response to my comment and not the other way around.
Here is the thing. How many articles has Loonwatch put up since its inception? Gazillions perhaps? But when any Pakistani asks me about America, I tell them that Peter King and Terry Jones do not represent America. I do it because that is the truthful and responsible thing to do.
On the other hand fearmongers like Dan (who although call himself Pakistani and Muslim although its hard to comprehend that in his entire Pakistani Muslim life he has not met a single decent Pakistani Muslim) will take selective sensational news about extremists and Islam and will try to represent the entire Islam and the entire Pakistan with it.
What does that make Dan? An irresponsible propagandist, a fear monger, and a liar!
April 17th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Khushboo said
Pakistan hasn’t put any restrictions on our clothes no matter what the crazies Dan mentioned have done.
You mean a woman can walk bare breasted in Pakistan? or in a bikini?
April 17th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
AJ said:
Here is the thing. How many articles has Loonwatch put up since its inception? Gazillions perhaps? But when any Pakistani asks me about America, I tell them that Peter King and Terry Jones do not represent America. I do it because that is the truthful and responsible thing to do.
its true Peter King doens’t represent America, but they are part of America. You cannot fob off like that. I don’t think it’s the responsible thing to do. and what is truthful? Is it not truthful that Peter King and Terry Jones are Islamophobes? That is truthful too, another “truth” (in reality a cover up excercise) doesn’t anull that truth too.
On the other hand fearmongers like Dan (who although call himself Pakistani and Muslim although its hard to comprehend that in his entire Pakistani Muslim life he has not met a single decent Pakistani Muslim) will take selective sensational news about extremists and Islam and will try to represent the entire Islam and the entire Pakistan with it.
It isn’t fearmongering. It’s initiating debate, and criticicm which will propell the powers that be to do something or change the law. You and Khushboo are comparing apples to oranges. Both of you are trying to “hush” up what Dan posted about Peshawer. Just because Pindi whereever that is, allows free dress doesn’t give you the right to ignore the plight of those in less free places. That is what you and Khushboo are trying to do.
Just because New York has a high crime rate doesn’t mean that someone in New Jersey has the right to pretend that all is well because it’s only happening in New York. No. Those in New York have the right to have New Jersey’s people stick up for them, not hypocritically call out how free they are in New Jersey so all is well in America. That is what you are doing AJ
What does that make Dan? An irresponsible propagandist, a fear monger, and a liar!
No it makes Dan someone who does not like to shove problems in a dark corner, and pretend all is well. Your face saving is shameful. This is another problem we have in the Muslim world. Face Saving. It excuses a lot of black deeds like forced marriage,
Dan does not care about face saving but about solving problems. I’m certain the women he was defending in Peshwar, would rather have him speak for them than you or Khushboo.
Keep your face saving, and “honour”. You owe Dan an apology for calling him a liar.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Suleyman,
There are laws in different states of USA that can fine and jail you for public nudity or for not wearing a shirt in places with a “shirt and shoes required” policy which is usually the norm for all businesses.
USA is not a Muslim country right?? and they do it so its quite common to have laws in any country governing public nudity or designating places for public nudity and these laws have nothing to do with Islam.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Suleyman, Read my lips:
France has banned a form of clothing and a religious clothing on top of that.
Pakistan has not banned any form of religious or non-religious clothing.
People dressing up in different sorts of styles in Peshawar or Pindi or Karachi or Lahore or Quetta has got more to with the individual provincial/city culture or western influences than with any official banning or implementation of any form of clothing.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Suley, why is it that everytime there’s a topic on ISLAMOPHOBIA, you pop in and discuss anti-Muslim topics when clearly you’re off topic?! How many times have we agreed that yes, there are some bad Muslims out there and we condemn them! There’s enough Muslim bashing already. Why add more fuel to the fire?! This site is not an anti-Muslim site nor is this topic re. Pakistan. If you want to bash Muslims, even crazy ones, perhaps you’ll feel more comfortable in Jihad watch site. Come out of the closet already! Admit, you’re just here to insult Muslims only!
April 17th, 2011 at 3:50 pm
AJ does not have to apologize to anyone, especially Dan. I’ve read Dan’s postings and he just seems to make up facts out of his butt. More importantly, Dan does not understand the nuance of terrorism and other hotly debated topics. He is extremely ignorant.
Having been to Pakistan, especially Karachi and Peshawar, I can tell you there are different values in different areas. Karachi is very modern and Peshawer is more old school. AJ, however, is correct. Hijras roam freely in both areas of the country. Nobody goes around in gangs beating them up. In fact, many Hijras make money by being invited to parties to dance. Some people in Pakistan consider it to be good luck if a hijra performs at a wedding.
You see, I have read AJ’s postings and I know he is not full of baloney. On the other hand, when I read Dan’s stuff, it is obvious that he is not well-informed. I have always wondered if Dan is really an racist Arab portraying himself as a Pakistani to give himself cover. If not, he really needs medication. No apology needed here.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Khushboo said:
This site is not an anti-Muslim site nor is this topic re. Pakistan. If you want to bash Muslims, even crazy ones, perhaps you’ll feel more comfortable in Jihad watch site. Come out of the closet already! Admit, you’re just here to insult Muslims only!
This site is not a Muslim apologist site either, and don’t you dare attempt to intimidate criticism of the likes of yourself, by equating my words as being suitable for Jihadwatch. You go there if you want, and get out of the closet already! You’re only here to cover and apologise and intimidate.
I didn’t give you permission to call me Suley you rude woman. Learn some manners. I am on topic, don’t you dare use this site to excuse and cover up just because Jihad Watch (apparently your favourite site) does so.
AJ said:
Pakistan has not banned any form of religious or non-religious clothing.
You said it was more progressive, that’s why I raised the bikini point, now you’re talking about religious clothing which is another issue. In any case, your comment is inane when you consider the offical ban in Pakistan or lack therof is meaningless in these corrupt type of countries. Why isn’t the government tackling the extremism amongst certain area’s where women are downtrodden and forced to do things they don’t want to do.
Are Christians allowed to carry a cross in Peshawar? Can Jews carry the Star of David? (let’s ask Daniel Pearl) can Hindu’s worship a cow freely in Peshawar? Again you’re comparing apples to oranges. How many American’s criticised King and Terry Jones. It may not be the best political order in the USA, but at least people can force politicians to do something. That is not the case in Peshwar, as the thug like Khushboo want’s you to believe.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:04 pm
jacque said:
You see, I have read AJ’s postings and I know he is not full of baloney. On the other hand, when I read Dan’s stuff, it is obvious that he is not well-informed
AJ’s comment above and in other threads are full on baloney sometimes, certianly Khushboo’s are.
Dan makes perfect sense to me. If you cannot see the flaws in AJ’s arguments then it’s you with the problem. What’s with your racist comment on Arab’s?
To make a point stick in someone’s mind you have to come out full force, give it all, go overboard. That’s why Dan goes overboard, probably. As I said above, if even one person is doing it wrong, the rightness of the majority doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fiercly brought out into the open.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:11 pm
“Pakistan is more progressive and liberal than France”
On Pakistani TV, every channel, except the religious ones, doesn’t mind showing women with their hair uncovered or with bare arms. This would be a criminal offence in Iran and some Arab countries so on this issue, one can say that Pakistan is more tolerant of women’s choice (on TV, streets are a different story) but to say it’s more progressive than France is laughable.
I’m glad no one is enforcing laws on clothing in Pakistan but in general, society does not allow women to walk in whatever clothing she likes all around the country. Fine, in DHA Lahore or other “upper class” parts of the country women can wear such clothing but there are more parts of the country where she would probably get beaten up for that. Pakistan has a long way to go and to say it is better than France is not right.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Suleyman says: That’s why Dan goes overboard, probably.
So you admit, he is wacko. Thanks for agreeing with me.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
Pakistan is more liberal on women’s clothing than Iran and Saudi Arabia but that’s hardly an achievement. It’s not even worth a pat on the back.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Wow Suley, you sound threatening! Not a good way to treat a woman! I have a right to speak my mind or am I not allowed because I’m a woman?? You can’t shut me up and that just makes you angry. I don’t need your permission for anything! How dare I?! You’re hilarious!
Newsflash: I’m a Pakistani and I am offended by you calling our culture disgusting. Blame some radical Pakistanis and yes, you may blame the corrupt gov’t. for not doing much with these radicals but stop with the generalizations! You can’t use Daniel Pearl and a few examples in Peshawar to insult all Pakistanis!
Your bigotry belongs in JW where you will be loved!
I simply replied to Dan above that there’s no ban on clothes in Pakisan. I also agreed with AJ but ofcourse you had to jump in and insult me yet again. For the umpteenth time, I’m not defending the radicals so quit calling me an apologist!
April 17th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Khushboo said:
Newsflash: I’m a Pakistani and I am offended by you calling our culture disgusting.
I find you very offensive, and when did I say Pakistani culture is disgusting? Any culture in a Muslim majority country that puts CULTURE above what Al Rasool (pbuh) taught us IS DISGUSTING. So when I hear about Talibanisation which is rife in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE and other DISGUSTING cultures, I will call it disgusting, until such time they clean up their act. The silent majority is to blame if they keep quiet and do nothing about their miscreants, I mean positive action, not just empty words.
If that offends you, live with it. I shall not continue this. So find someone else to fight with.
April 17th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
meh, you’re not worth my time. Luckily, I get along with everyone except you. Learn to chill! I’ll ignore you from now on.
April 17th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
This is why the bigots are winning-we are fighting with each other, rather than trying to figure out how to eliminate hatred. Let’s all agree to disagree okay
April 17th, 2011 at 10:52 pm
mindy1 I don’t consider any discussion with Dan who opposes the right of a Muslim woman to wear a face veil as infighting. I consider him a bigot and place him in the same category as other bigots here.
April 18th, 2011 at 3:10 am
@AJ, I know what you mean, but it just saddens me that we can’t try to be civil. We want to fight bigots, we should try to find a way to make sure they can’t take up a whole conversation and distract us.
April 18th, 2011 at 6:35 am
Mindy, I’m sorry but this guy is the only guy I can’t be civil with. I tried but he’s full of hot air and I ended up stooping to his level. Sadly, he’s actually helping the bigots give more info. they need for their anti-Islam agenda. I know Pakistan is no beacon of democracy and unfortunately has more radicals than it used to. No one denied that. However, I’m still accused of being an apologist for defending a country that I still find dear since I am Pakistani. I’ve heard him generalize and insulted my country and therefore, got offended. Ofcourse religion is more important than culture but there’s still part of our culture that’s precious. Not everything has to be Americanized. Instead of apologizing for his rudeness, he tells me to “live with it”. In part, I believe him to be a bigot too. I hope one day he thinks before he posts.
April 18th, 2011 at 6:54 am
Aj, I’m so sorry about your dad! I hope he’ll be okay. So sorry I got distracted with the nonsense that I didn’t get to respond to your reply to me.
April 18th, 2011 at 7:38 am
Sulayman and Dan: I knew you had something in common:bigottery towards the average Muslim. They like arguments, but when they can’t stand criticism they go awol. Wow, these are the so called liberals, what a bunch of circus clowns.Don’t tell me to shut up Sulayman when you can’t stand the heat.
AJ & Khushboo, don’t let these weasels intimidate you and divide the Muslims, they come in sheeps clothing but are inwardly ravening wolves.
Criticising Muslims/Islam all the time ain’t gonna earn you a medal on this site you are better off visiting JW.
April 18th, 2011 at 8:05 am
Provided one does not go overboard, a bit of self-criticism is never a bad thing.
April 18th, 2011 at 8:55 am
Provided one does not go overboard, a bit of self-criticism is never a bad thing.
I agree. A lot of Dan’s criticisms are valid, albeit a bit over the top. Muslims are not above criticism. Just because one criticizes Muslims, does not mean they’re an Islamphobe. Some people here are so quick to criticize the bigotry of Islamophobes and others, and rightly so…but get all defensive and butthurt when some Muslims are criticized for their bigotry.
April 18th, 2011 at 9:19 am
lol @ “butthurt” I understand what you’re saying and I’m fully aware that there are Muslims that deserve criticism too but seriously, are we going to keep bringing up the topic of Pakistanis over and over again especially when this topic is simply about Canada? As a Pakistani, I’ve been quiet for a while now, knowing that we have radicals and a corrupt govt. but come on, let’s not keep repeating the same ole stuff, even blaming the whole country. I also find it offensive being called a “thug” and an “apologist”. I have so much patience but there is a limit.
Sam, thanks for the support! I will finally move on now.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Sam Seed said:
Sulayman and Dan: I knew you had something in common:bigottery towards the average Muslim. They like arguments, but when they can’t stand criticism they go awol. Wow, these are the so called liberals, what a bunch of circus clowns.Don’t tell me to shut up Sulayman when you can’t stand the heat.
Sam Seed is an example of the hypocrites. Don’t criticise Muslims he says. Does he tell American Christians they are anti Christian for criticising JW?
READ THIS SAM. I WILL CRITICISE MUSLIMS. That doesn’t mean i’m a bigot. I can stand the heat, and I am not AWOL. YOU get out of the kitchen if you can’t stand the heat.
I have no bigotry towards Muslims or Islam. Are you blind? can’t you read? Espousing cultural values over Islamic ones is not what a Muslim should do, and if anyone is, they should criticise it fiercly, and hypocrites like you who like to pretend that criticising wrong doing Muslims is attacking Islam. It is not.
Pretending is all perfect between Muslims does not make for fighting Islamophobia. It’s a lie. Anything built on a lie will fall. Neither does criticising those cultures who claim to be Muslim yet espouse sick values centuries old, that were outlawed fourteen centuries ago.
Don’t you dare attack Dan unfairly.
Criticising Muslims/Islam all the time ain’t gonna earn you a medal on this site you are better off visiting JW.
I will criticise Muslims, there is nothing in Islam to criticise. I do not need a medal. You and Khushboo had better stop bowing down to JW. We are not going to change our ways because of JW.
It’s hypocritical of you, to say Islam=Muslims. Here let me open your eyes
Muslims = human beings with a choice to choose ,
Islam = Divine religion, a moral code.
Still need educating? Rinse, Repeat:
Muslims = human beings with a choice to choose ,
Islam = Divine religion, a moral code.
Sink in yet? Naaaaaaaaaah, here is a lollipop, now repeat after me:
Muslims = human beings with a choice to choose
Islam = Divine religion, a moral code.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
Okay now this is just getting ridiculous Suleyman. Enough already.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Mosizzle and Cynic,
Criticism and spreading blanket lies is not one and the same.
Khushboo, Thanks for asking about my dad.
Sam, agreed!
Dan and Sulayman, as the saying goes: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Any person who calls himself a Muslim will never curtail the religious liberty of another person of their Ummah. So stop fooling people.
If I were in Canada, I would wear a burka with a face veil and be roaming around everywhere with it. For that matter let the men wear a burka too in solidarity. I hope the MSAs in Canada can start a movement in conjunction with other religious student organisations like the Hillel and Catholic Student Organisations and others and start a burka movement. ANYBOY reading this, please take note!
April 18th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Sulayman said, “Don’t you dare attack Dan unfairly.”
You say this or something of this nature in every thread. You sure you are not Dan’s brother or cousin or perhaps his alternate self?
April 18th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
ANYBOY would be ANYBODY!
April 18th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
If a commenter is 100% right about something but expresses that idea really aggressively it will without a doubt turn off some other commenters and make them very hostile to their point of view, even if what is being said is perfectly reasonable.
I think everyone here agrees that injustices perpetrated by Muslims and Non-Muslims must come to an end, and each of these groups should try their best to combat the evil within their societies. There are many bad Muslims and we have to criticise them and ensure that they are defeated. Everyone here also believes that people should return to Islam and leave the wrong cultural things that have become common like honour killings, FGM and forced marriages. I believe everyone here agrees on this.
The argument is happening only because everyone is shouting at each other and accusing them of being either Islamophobes or apologists, even though everyone believes on these key points. And everyone is only interested in responding to the accusations made against them rather than discussing and debating the main issues.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Mosizzle,
Except that condemning an entire religion or a nation because of the actions of a few and curtailing the religious liberty of another person because of it is called bigotry. When non-Muslims commenters like Halalpork and JihadBob do it we call it Islamophobia but when a so-called Muslim does it, we call it self-criticism. Its bigotry in both cases.
April 18th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
^True. But I have only seen generalisations about Pakistan but not about Islam. Since everyone here is Muslim, I find it hard to believe that they would blame Islam. They may however be critical of Muslims’ interpretations of Islam…
I agree, violating someone’s religious liberty is not cool, no matter how one looks at it.
April 18th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
I wouldn’t compare JBob’s essentializing of Islam, supporting the “Reconquista of Anatolia” and general bigotry, etc. to Dan’s comments by any means. I think Dan is mistaken in his opposition to the niqab, but much of what he says is valid. The Muslim world undoubtedly needs more self-criticism—especially in Pakistan, where conspiracy theories are a national sport. That being said, I think Mindy1’s advice should be heeded.
April 19th, 2011 at 2:43 am
AJ:
“If I were in Canada, I would wear a burka with a face veil and be roaming around everywhere with it. For that matter let the men wear a burka too in solidarity. I hope the MSAs in Canada can start a movement in conjunction with other religious student organisations like the Hillel and Catholic Student Organisations and others and start a burka movement. ANYBOY reading this, please take note!”
Why don’t you go try your stupid pathetic stunt in Moscow and see if you come out alive? Especially when fully veiled fanatical Muslim women from the Caucasus who are drunk from Wahhabism have no problem strapping bombs to themselves and murdering civilians in subway stations and airport terminals in the country
April 19th, 2011 at 2:58 am
Very silly religious clothing:
April 19th, 2011 at 3:24 am
@ Dan:
Actually, I would love to go wear a burqa around France and see what happens. Aside from thumbing my nose at the French (something I always take great personal delight in anyway) it puts them in quite a quandary, does it not? The anti-Muslim lobby tells them that the burqa is a ‘symbol of female oppressin,’ yet the French and other European governments cannot be seen as persecuting cross-dressing men, now can they? I would love to do it, just to make them squirm.
The funny thing is that, despite claiming to be a Muslim, you seem to gleefully cheer on the violent anti-Muslim sentiments in Russia. Never mind that the Caucasians have as much right to self-determination as the Udmurts, Yakuts, Karelians, Sami, Mansi, Kalmyks, Tatars, Nenets, Finns, Abkhazians, Estonians, Roma and dozens of other people that have been under Russian yoke, past and present. Ever wonder why the Russian Federation has been breaking up since ’91, or why the Russians have such a bad reputation from Poland to Japan?
But since you want to talk about killing civilians, lets not forget the latest wave of anti-Caucasian and anti-immigrant rioting that just recently swept through Moscow. It doesn’t quite top the white supremacist gangs who freaking DECAPITATE people (and put the videos of it on the internet) but it gives you some idea of the people that you and your buddies seem to be championing…
But I guess it’s okay since Russian women aren’t ‘oppressed’. I’m guessing old Orthodox grannies who wear their babushkas are exempt from that, right? It’s only us Muslims who are ‘oppressed’ and ‘backwards’.
April 19th, 2011 at 11:37 am
The answer to proposed bans on the veil should be, IMO, that Muslims themselves should disavow the practice. Some have and more should follow. I know it is not for me to say what is “Islamic” or not, since I am not Muslim, but I have read a good case by Islamic scholars that the veil has no basis in Islam. What I can certainly say is that it makes no sense and would be better off going to the dustbins of history. It doesn’t matter if some women choose to wear it, all that means is that they are choosing to subjugate themselves. I am sorry to be blunt, and I don’t mean to offend, but it is the truth as I see it.
I have more patience for the hijab, even though I don’t believe it is necessary for modesty. At least it doesn’t pose any security or communication issues and since it doesn’t restrict normal, everyday activities like the veil does, I don’t see that it subjugates women to anywhere near the same extent. It might be uncomfortable on a hot day, but women that wear it can fully participate in any society. With the veil, the facial expressions so important to human communication are cut off, and that’s just for starters.
The security issues go beyond checkpoints at airports and banks. In many European countries they have security cameras everywhere. If most of the society has to be subjected to them, then all should have to. Theoretically, anyone could hide behind a veil for nefarious purposes.
But the problem is that since the French banned the hijab in the public schools in 2004, which poses no security or communication issues, I don’t completely trust their reasons for the ban. They seem to have some screwy notions about what is necessary for cultural assimilation. If a Jewish man wearing a yarmulke can be British, American or French then I don’t see why a Muslim woman wearing a hijab can’t be french. And their idea of a secular country is equally as screwy. Secularism should not oppress the freedom of religious expression if that expression is not hurting anyone, which I don’t see how the hijab hurts anyone.
Further reasons for my suspicions about the French is why they made such a big deal about some fast food restaurants serving halal only meat. I’m sure there are still plenty of places for them to get a ham sandwich.
So while I think the ban will probably work, it also might just keep the women that are being forced to wear a veil inside their homes completely. The other thing it will probably do is prevent further immigration by women that would want to, or are forced to wear it. Maybe that was their true intent.
April 19th, 2011 at 11:52 am
“The funny thing is that, despite claiming to be a Muslim, you seem to gleefully cheer on the violent anti-Muslim sentiments in Russia.”
That’s funny, coming from someone who claims to be Shi’a yet gleefully cheer on the Wahhabi elements amongst the Caucasians who would not hesitate to murder Shi’as when given the chance.
April 19th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
@ Elaine:
> but I have read a good case by Islamic scholars that the veil has no
> basis in Islam.
The point is not whether or not it is Islamic. The point is that human beings have a basic right to choose how they dress. If a person chooses to wear a veil, especially because THEY believe it has some religious significance, then who am I to tell them not to? It’s their choice. What if someone said I couldn’t wear leopard print pants, or grow a beard, or have a leather jacket with spikes?
> What I can certainly say is that it makes no sense and would be better
> off going to the dustbins of history. It doesn’t matter if some women
> choose to wear it, all that means is that they are choosing to subjugate
> themselves. I am sorry to be blunt, and I don’t mean to offend, but it
> is the truth as I see it.
And I’m sorry to sound confrontational here, but I disagree. To whom are they subjugating themselves? If a woman CHOOSES to wear veil, hijab, anything, then it is because she is a free human being. One could just as easily argue that western clothing is a sign of subjugation, because it means giving up your own culture and identity, sometimes forcibly (as was the case for the American Indians).
> I have more patience for the hijab, even though I don’t believe it is
> necessary for modesty.
If I might… that’s merely your opinion. Modesty is a culturally defined concept. Most Americans seem especially uptight about breasts being displayed out in the open, yet there have been societies where that was the norm. Even historically recently.
> but women that wear it can fully participate in any society. With the
> veil, the facial expressions so important to human communication are cut
> off
That’s making an awfully big assumption. What if you don’t WANT to communicate with other people? I am under no obligation to talk to people I meet walking down the street, or on a bus, or anywhere else.
> The security issues go beyond checkpoints at airports and banks. In many
> European countries they have security cameras everywhere.
And that’s a whole other issue entirely. I’m rather vehemently opposed to the street cameras, of which we in Chicago are no strangers to. The irony is that they do absolutely nothing to cut down on crime in the first place.
> But the problem is that since the French banned the hijab in the public
> schools in 2004, which poses no security or communication issues, I
> don’t completely trust their reasons for the ban. They seem to have some
> screwy notions about what is necessary for cultural assimilation.
Exactly.
> If a Jewish man wearing a yarmulke can be British, American or French
> then I don’t see why a Muslim woman wearing a hijab can’t be french.
Actually, I believe the anti-hijab ban extends to most other religious garb as well. The Jews have had a relatively rough time in France (the Dreyfus Affair, Vichy collaboration with the Nazis, etc). It’s not surprising that other groups face the same prejudices.
> And their idea of a secular country is equally as screwy. Secularism
> should not oppress the freedom of religious expression if that
> expression is not hurting anyone, which I don’t see how the hijab hurts
> anyone.
Right, well in the French context it is really Atheism, or rather Atheism mixed with Nationalism. But then the French are very different from the American/British tradition
> Further reasons for my suspicions about the French is why they made such
> a big deal about some fast food restaurants serving halal only meat. I’m
> sure there are still plenty of places for them to get a ham sandwich.
Right, because as you may have figured out, it’s not about the minority (Muslims) imposing their culture on the majority (non-Muslim French). It’s really about the French not wanting to tolerate another culture in their country. Everyone has to live up to some imagined ideal that never existed in the first place.
> So while I think the ban will probably work
Work for what?
> it also might just keep the women that are being forced to wear a veil
> inside their homes completely.
Forced to? How many women do you really think are ‘forced’ to wear veils? Did it ever occur that some women might CHOOSE to do so, of their own free will?
> The other thing it will probably do is prevent further immigration by
> women that would want to, or are forced to wear it. Maybe that was their
> true intent.
You do realize that a large number of the immigrants are people coming from former French colonies, and that many already have families in France anyway. Algeria didn’t achieve freedom from French rule until 1962, Morocco and Tunisia in ’56, Mali, Senegal and Mauritania in ’60, and Djibouti in ’77! That’s pretty recent history…
April 19th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
@ Dan:
> That’s funny, coming from someone who claims to be Shi’a yet gleefully
> cheer on the Wahhabi elements amongst the Caucasians who would not
> hesitate to murder Shi’as when given the chance.
Can’t speak much to that one mate. I’ve known some Sunnis who have given me some flack, but I’m hardly a friend of the Wahhabis. You can look through LW and find quite a few things I’ve said about them I’m sure. But I wouldn’t be able to tell you much about Wahhabi activity in the Caucasus… hell, most Caucasians I’ve known have been Sunnis (except the Armenians, of course, who are Christian) and few were into the Naqshbandi Sufi rites.
For what it’s worth, I support the notion of self-determination for all people. I know, kind of silly for an idealist like me, but I value freedom above all else. If the South Ossetians, Chechens, Kosovars, Kurds, Fur, Zaghawa, Igbo, Hmong, Tibetans, Timorese, Panjabis, Moluccans or whomever else want to break away and form their own country, then so be it. They obviously know how to govern themselves better than someone all the way in Moscow (or Beijing, Khartoum, Jakarta, wherever).
April 19th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
@Zakariya,
–The point is not whether or not it is Islamic. The point is that human beings have a basic right to choose how they dress.
Yes they do have a right to choose how they dress, but if it has no basis in Islam then that is something Muslims should address. The former dean of Al-Azhar University in egypt has done so. Perhaps others should follow.
–To whom are they subjugating themselves? If a woman CHOOSES to wear veil, hijab, anything, then it is because she is a free human being.
One definition of subjugate is to be subservient. The veil would restrict normal everyday needs such as eating or drinking in public. (not make it impossible, just difficult) Visibility would be limited which would make healthy, natural and productive activities like playing soccer or frisbee in the park with your children or hiking up a mountain for recreation difficult. The sensation of feeling the wind on your face would be impossible. Restricting the movement of only one gender is making them subservient. Women were born with muscles in their legs and arms too. They have a heart and lungs that need to be exercised and their children enjoy them playing with them just as much as they enjoy their dads playing with them. So once again, it doesn’t matter if women choose to wear a veil. They are choosing to be subservient.
–Forced to? How many women do you really think are ‘forced’ to wear veils? Did it ever occur that some women might CHOOSE to do so, of their own free will?
Yes, it did occur to me that some women CHOOSE to wear it, I think I said that. And so what. Some fundamentalist Mormon women choose to remain in married to men that have 20 wives. People can be duped into believing a lot of nonsense.
–That’s making an awfully big assumption. What if you don’t WANT to communicate with other people? I am under no obligation to talk to people I meet walking down the street, or on a bus, or anywhere else.
I am not just talking about in public places. I am talking about everyday life and the numerous professions where communication is very important.
April 19th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
Zakariya also asked;
> So while I think the ban will probably work
Work for what?
the answer is that it will work to banish it to the dustbin of history where it belongs.
Also, if it is true that only about 2000 women in France wear the veil (as supposedly one French government report revealed) and if we assume that approximately half of the 5 million Muslims in france are female, then this would make the percent that actually wear a veil .008. Which means that the 99.9 % that choose not to wear it either do so because they don’t believe it is necessary or they would rather not. Which I think highly suggests that given a choice most women would rather abandon this custom because it is not pleasant.
April 20th, 2011 at 8:13 am
For some reason, I just took the time to read EVERY comment on this article, and the tone of this discussion is horrible. I understand that sometimes it’s easy to get a little more heated than we should, especially since we’re not talking to each other face to face, but there was very little of substance that took place in the conversation above, and it exposed nothing except the bigotry, intolerance and animosity that exist WITHIN the Muslim community.
@ Dan
I can see that the terrible things perpetrated by the taliban and “talibanists” as you called them , make you really upset. But who is typically the victim of the extremists’ violence? That would be other Muslims living in Pakistan and Afghanistan. If you really want the sort of crimes and atrocities we see coming out of those countries to end, then you have to realize that only the people living there have the power to change their circumstances. If Pakistani women want to better their lives and gain more equality, then Pakistani women will be the ones who ultimately fight that battle. Commenting online about how much Pakistan sucks and how backward the people are will never result in any change whatsoever for the people who actually suffer because of extremism. In fact, what happens is that Pakistani Muslims, who should be having an honest conversation about extremism and inequality and women’s rights, etc, have to put those things aside to defend themselves in a larger context of prejudice. Rather than AJ and Khushboo being free to self-reflect and criticize the state of their community, or to even confront the radical elements within their community, they are busy deflecting comments like yours, comments that hurl blame and disgust on EVERY person that happens to Pakistani.
I get fed up with a lot of the violence and ignorance I see coming from Muslim communities. But, we’re a diverse lot, and ultimately, all peace-loving, God-loving Muslims are each other’s allies. We should be empowering one another, not talking about how shitty each other’s cultures are.
Here’s a great article about the dilemma women of color, or women in minority communities, face. On the one hand we want to fight against the oppression in our communities, but on the other, we have to defend the good in our communities against the bigoted, misinformed views of the majority. It’s very counterproductive. Muslim women have to find a way to accept and be honest about the problems we face, without becoming the poster children for Islamophobes who try to misrepresent all Muslims as oppressive and women-hating.
http://feministing.com/2011/04/14/the-limits-of-a-woc-feminist-stance-within-the-context-of-global-racism/
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:32 am
Elaine,
I STRONGLY suggest you pay a visit to Saudi Arabia and meet one of the veiled women there. They actually wear more make up and skimpier clothing than the women do in the west under their burkas. You would be pleasantly surprised and not worry to much about their being suppressed. Who do you think all the lingerie displayed in their stores goes to? Their Saudi women clients. Seriously.
Until then stop making assumptions about people.
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:43 am
“Rather than AJ and Khushboo being free to self-reflect and criticize the state of their community, or to even confront the radical elements within their community, they are busy deflecting comments like yours, comments that hurl blame and disgust on EVERY person that happens to Pakistani.”
sunnishine, THANK YOU.
April 22nd, 2011 at 2:07 am
And Elaine for the record, let me say I find Saudi women wearing lingerie under their burkas or as part of main clothing, outside their bedrooms in their homes, as oppressed as the western women displaying their naked bodies openly in the west but since the west uses the lack of clothes as an indicator of female freedom, I wanted to point the above fact out.
April 22nd, 2011 at 2:50 am
AJ, A Saudi or any other Muslim woman is not oppressed if she chooses to wear lingerie, in the confines of her home.
A woman has an obligation to cover her AURAH in front of those who are not her Mahram. A Muslim woman does not have to dress according to your standards, which reflect your own bigotry towards Saudi’s. Whilst the culture leaves a lot to be desired, there is nothing wrong with a woman wearing lingerie.
What you are doing is using Islam to justify your own prejudice against Saudi’s. Don’t.
April 22nd, 2011 at 2:59 am
I’m actually not sure if Dan is a Pakistani Shi’a or an ex-Muslim but I must say I semi-agree with him on many issues, including the burqa one. Burqas are a sign of regression and women in burqa are over-represented in extremist rallies in the UK. I’m perfectly fine with a ban on burqas. You shouldn’t be allowed to walk around with a garbage bag on your head looking like Darth Vader or the Grim Reaper, it’s just plain weird and unnecessarily confrontational. Women in the West who dress scantily are not oppressed; no one is forcing them to dress that way. Women in Saudi Arabia who have the Wahhabi understanding of “modest dress” imposed on them on the other hand are oppressed by a male chauvinistic society where illiterate desert men use extremist interpretations of religion to subjugate women. I watched a video on YouTube a while ago of a Saudi (not sure if he was a scholar or something) man saying that Western women are the most oppressed in the world because they can’t achieve anything without exposing their bodies, they have to drive themselves around everywhere (yes, he did say that) and he went on to say that there are (insert number here, as I forgot) US states where beastiality is legal and commonly practiced and something like the majority of American women don’t know who the fathers of their children are, ie. the USA is a nation of illegitimate children. That frame of thinking is not uncommon in places like Saudi Arabia by the way. I totally went on a rant there but back to the burqa issue, it has no place in Islam and is in fact banned from the being worn at the Grand Mosque in Makkah, the holiest place in the world in Islam and it similarly has no place in Western society.
April 22nd, 2011 at 3:02 am
@Friend. Canada did not invade Iraq and has not invaded any countries on false pretenses. Covering your face us bad, it means you have something to hide.
April 22nd, 2011 at 3:11 am
“A Saudi or any other Muslim woman is not oppressed if she chooses to wear lingerie, in the confines of her home. ”
The magic word is “if she chooses to wear”. That applies to a burka as well. Your friend Dan should agree but he doesn’t.
April 22nd, 2011 at 3:16 am
Reading through the comments section I thought I just read that Pakistan is more liberal than France. LOL. Yeah right, because a woman can walk around in a bikini without getting acid thrown on her in any part of Pakistan, right? Or is it because of their liberal blasphemy laws and tolerance towards their Christian and Hindu minorities. As a Muslim you have much more freedom in France than a Christian would in Pakistan. So it’s ridiculous to claim that Pakistan is a more liberal society than France just because of a silly burqa ban.
April 22nd, 2011 at 3:35 am
AJ, I understood your post to mean that women can’t look sexy or wear lingerie, where it is permissible (for their husbands), though in all fairness, women can expect the same from their husband. However, whilst Saudi’s have cultural problems, (like forcing women to marry whom they don’t want, or to ban driving out of misogy and other nasty habits that predate Islam) this should not be used to ban or riducule permissible practices. Just because western women wear lingerie in public doesn’t mean Muslim women cannot or should be prejudiced against if they wear it under their Burka.
It has to be borne in mind that for centuries the west which was Christian regarding sexy dress and eroticism as dirty, therefore when they shed religion they felt it necessary to abandon dress restrictions in order to be “free”. Medieval Islamic societies by contrast celebrated love and eroticism.
I disagree with Dan about banning burka, if a woman chooses to wear it. I’m against it when she is forced by men. However, Dan does have a point about men who dress up as women to blow up malls. Dan should realise that the solution to this problem, isn’t to make a blanket ban on burka wearing, but to put safeguards in place or to put a temporary ban on the practice when and wherever a threat may be immininent.
To all those who think sexy lingerie is somehow wrong, and to Islamophobes who like to bang on about how “oppressed” Muslim women are, here is a ruling for you to ponder over:
Question:
Respected scholars, As-salamu `alaykum. Many sisters feel under pressure to buy Western style clothing and especially underwear to be attractive for their husbands at home. Yet they do not agree with dressing in this manner. What are the scholars’ opinions? Jazakum Allahu khayran.
http://infad.usim.edu.my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6387
Answer:
Dear sister in Islam, we commend your desire to become well acquainted with Islam and its teachings, which is the way Allah has chosen for the welfare of His servants.
First of all, it should be clear that the matter of the dress code in Islam is flexible in order to accommodate people in every time and every culture, and there is no certain design for the outfit. In the presence of her husband a woman is allowed to wear whatever she likes in order to please her husband and enjoy each other.
In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto,Ontario, Canada, states:
What married couples wear in each other’s presence for their mutual pleasure and enjoyment is not anybody’s business, for it is something entirely left to their own discretions. In other words, there is nothing un-Islamic about it; we are not allowed to be rigid about matters that have been left unlegislated in Islam. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah has enjoined certain duties, so fulfill them; He has forbidden certain things, refrain from them; He has set certain limits, do not trespass them; He is silent of certain things, do not dig into them.” In another report, “Whatever Allah is silent of, shall be deemed as being excused.”
Furthermore, it conforms only to the higher purposes of the Shari`ah for a married couple to appear as pleasing, enticing, and alluring towards each other as possible, so that each one of them find their consummate fulfillment within the marital bounds—provided they do not transgress the limits.
It is worth remembering that Islam celebrates sexuality and considers it as an act of worship when practiced within the bounds of a lawful union. That is why the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “I prepare myself (by appearing attractive for her) just as she prepares herself (by appearing attractive) for me.” So enjoy wearing your lingerie and bikinis in the presence of your husband.
May Allah make all of us self-sufficient with what He has prescribed as lawful for us so that we are never enticed to seek fulfillment through what He has made unlawful for us. Ameen.
Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: http://www.islam.ca.
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:03 pm
AJ,
I may be a western woman, but that does not mean I view the presence of naked or half naked bodies as an indicator of freedom, because it isn’t. But I really don’t care if they wear lingerie under their burkas. It doesn’t surprise me and it doesn’t please me. It does nothing to replace the loss of sunlight important for receiving vitamin D, which covering yourself with a shroud takes away,it does nothing to improve visibility, and nothing to improve the ability to eat or drink in public.
I will take this time to respond to another point that Zakariya made.
First about security. He questioned whether it was ok for there to be security cameras in public places. This doesn’t bother me personally, because it is not as if they are being poked into my house or property. They are in public places where we should assume that to some extent we do not have privacy. But I will concede that it is at least a gray area. So lets assume that we got rid of all security cameras on streets etc. There would still be security issues beyond just at check points and banks. Criminals will often conceal their identity with ski masks or bandannas over their faces while they commit crimes. Crimes could be committed in any public place or business establishment. Hence, it is entirely reasonable to think that someone might try to conceal their identity with a burka or niqab for nefarious purposes.
I think the security issue is the only reasonable point by which the veil could be banned through the legislative process. The issue of oppression is more difficult because there may be some that are being coerced to wear it, but others are choosing to oppress themselves. How would you know the difference.
Another issue that people in places like the UK have with it is the attitude of many of the women that wear it. They view it as a clear gesture of contempt for the people that they live around. They know that the native population doesn’t like it, but it seems like some specifically wear it because of that. One study of the French women that wear it found that many did so to make a political point.
I know that a lot of mud has been slung at Muslims. There is a lot of prejudice and hatred directed at you, but wearing a veil for the sake of being confrontational will not help.
So as I have said before, Muslims should be the one encouraging this unnecessarily oppressive tradition to stop, and I find it disappointing that such highly intelligent, sensible Muslims such as the ones on this blog do not see that.
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:38 pm
Elaine: The issue of oppression is more difficult because there may be some that are being coerced to wear it, but others are choosing to oppress themselves.
According to your line of reasoning, the burqa is oppressive irrespective of whether Muslim women choose to wear it or not. Now that’s what I call question begging! If you want to make a rational case against the burqa, you cannot start by presupposing that the burqa is oppressive.
Elaine: How would you know the difference.
Since you have presupposed the burqa is oppressive, then it really doesn’t matter.
April 22nd, 2011 at 9:15 pm
IbnAbuTalib,
Please show me how restricting visibility, normal movement, exposure to sunlight,(which is an important source of vitamin D) or eating or drinking in public is not oppressive. If you cannot do so then my assertion that wearing a burka is oppressive whether one chooses to do so voluntarily or whether they are coerced, remains true.
Put another way; if you acknowledge that the ancient Chinese practice of foot binding was oppressive to girls and women, then it was irrelevant if the women chose to do it or not. One reason you might easily recognize that the custom of foot binding was oppressive is that you are not a Chinese person living pre-1912 when it was banned. The custom of the veil might be more normal to you, if you have been exposed to the practice your whole life. Wearing a veil over your face might be sensible in a dust storm in the desert, but for most people it is not natural to walk around day after day with a cloth in front of your face.(and I have listed the reasons why it doesn’t make sense several times which so far no one has responded to. If you try to tell me it is no big deal to have to put up with those restrictions then please explain why 99.9% of French Muslim women would rather not wear a veil)
One point I was making in my last post was this;
There is a case to be made that it is oppressive, but since some women choose to oppress themselves it is hard to use this as a basis for a forced ban. Although there might be other forms of oppression that the state should intervene on like physical abuse.
There is also a case to be made that some of the women wearing it in the UK (and maybe France as well) are doing so as a clear gesture of contempt for the people they live around. This is another reason to try and stop the practice, but it would be hard to justify legislating against anti-social behavior, otherwise you would have to do the same to rebellious youths that dress in the “goth” style and pierce their tongues for amusement.
But there is a legitimate case to be made for a ban based on security issues.
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:17 pm
The burqa as one journalist put it is “self-imposed exile” and it shows that a woman has decided to surrender her identity and be reduced to a walking tent. It’s only normal to be frightened or intimidated by someone walking around looking like a Star Wars villian all the while thinking that they are serving God. Wearing ski masks and walking around with your face covered is already illegal in many jurisdictions, women who cover their faces should not be exempt. Go on YouTube and watch some EDL videos, how many feature scantily clad women and Israeli flags? Why do you think they do that? Specifically because they assume those things enrage Muslims. Being half-naked has become a symbol of liberation for many in the West because being forced to wear a burqa has become a symbol of oppression in places like the tribal regions if Afghanistan where the Taliban still reigns and the ultraconservative parts of Saudi Arabia where a woman has no say in something as personal as the clothes she wears.
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:49 pm
My Dearest Elaine,
It’s been such a long time since our last correspondence. I trust that you have remained in good health and spirits. I was just thinking about you and ,Elaine, the strangest thing happened to me the other day that I must relate to you. It was one of those quiet summer days in which nothing unusual occurs, I had just finished the most delicious oatmeal cookies. I had the day all planned out, I was paying a visit to my dearest nephew Robert Spencer, as you may know dear Elaine, Robert is well known now! Yes, I know! Who would have guessed that that overweight shy little boy would become famous! Anyway, Bobby was expecting me at around noon, and I had about half an hour to spare. And You know me well my dearest, when I have a bit of time to spend I love to walk around town enjoying the weather! As I was leaving my house I spotted Robby’s friends, Roland Shirk and Pamela Geller. And can you beleive what I saw, Elaine?! They were dressed in the worst possible clothing ever! Mr. Shirk had peirced every part of his face! He was causing himself so much pain! And never mind the fact that he might get an infection! He looked like an absolute barbarian! And pammy, oh goodness pammy, she was wearing the tightest skirt up to her knees that I have ever seen! And with high heels as well! It looked so uncomfortable! And she could hardly move! Sometimes I wonder that if I ever wore such a thing I would not be able to properly move an inch! Well, I concluded, they are free to do as they wish. Anyway, Elaine, the strange thing happened to me when I was waiting for the bus to come, you see i don’t drive and I will never enter Roberts car, it is so sticky and smelly in there goodness! I don’t think he ever cleans it! Well, as I was sitting there I began to notice how bright the sun was, I attempted to shade my eyes with my hand but I my arm soon became tired, I sat there uncomfortably with the hot suns rays stinging me, for you see the bus stop is just one lone bench on a long stretch of road. But what came next made me tremble in fear! In the distance I saw a figure dressed in black! It moved towards me slowly and at first I thought it was the heat playing tricks on me! Then before I realized it, the figure was standing right next to me!!! Elaine! Can you beleive it! My goodness it was some sort of strange demonic instant teloportation! I immidiately recognized WHAT IT was! Robby had warned me several times about such things! I was paralyzed! Struck with fear! Petrified! I could not get up to run at all! My heart began beating faster and faster! Everything was spinning! Then I heard a sweet voice say ‘Excuse me, ma’am, may I join you on this bench’, almost instantly everything went dark. Yes, you must be very shocked indeed, Elaine, but don’t worry I’m fine now. Anyway, as I came to, I realized I was laying on my back on the bench. My head rested on something soft and I felt a cool hand on my forehead. I looked up and to my horror I saw two brown olive shaped eyes staring back! I attempted to sit up but I was too weak! I couldve sworn it was holding me down! I managed to escape its clutches! I scooted to the far end of the bench, the thing didn’t move instead I saw the brown olive shaped eyes “smile”! ‘how are you feeling ma’am’ came that same sweet melody of a voice. I didn’t reply, I could only stare back in amazement! ‘ma’am ?’ it said. I hesistated and blurted out ‘Yes?! What is it you want with me?!’ the eyes “smiled” again, and a sweet laugh danced over to my ears. ‘nothing at all. I just want to kno if your ok ‘ it said. My dear Elaine you could imagine what was possibly going on in my head! I was praying to the Lord for help! All the information Bobby had taught me danced in my head! Was it going to kill me? Blow up? Convert me? then I noticed something! I hadn’t replied to it’s question of whether I was ok or not and suddenly I saw the brown eyes “frown”! This is the first time I had noticed so much emotion In a pair of eyes! ‘I-Im ok’ I said. Suddenly the eyes lit up and “smiled”! It then exclaimed something in their weird tongue which made me think it was the end for me! ‘Stop please!’ I yelled ‘Don’t kill me! I beg of you!’. You can tell by now that the thing is a she. She looked at me and laughed again ‘what are you talking about maam?’ she asked. ‘you said something! You yelled..what is it…the word Robby taught me…Aloe Akbur!…you yell that before you kill people!’ she looked taken aback by my comment then she laughed again ‘no what I said was ‘alhamdulilah’ which means praise be to God, I’m thanking him that you are ok!’. Yes, Elaine, I was as stunned as you are right now reading this letter! Anyway, Dearest, I have business to attend to but be certain that I will be sending you another letter finishing this story. Thank you for reading this story and I wait in anticipation for your reply.
Sincerely Yours,
Lady Roberta Terwilliger Spencer.
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:10 am
Elaine: Please show me how restricting visibility, normal movement, exposure to sunlight,(which is an important source of vitamin D) or eating or drinking in public is not oppressive.
Here’s how your argument goes: the burqah is wrong because it leads to things which are (you have presumed) wrong (slippery slope fallacy). Therefore, please show me how the burqah is not wrong when it is wrong (circular argument).
April 23rd, 2011 at 4:18 am
As: The burqa as one journalist put it is “self-imposed exile” and it shows that a woman has decided to surrender her identity and be reduced to a walking tent.
Or, a woman may choose to wear the burqah because she feels it is essential to her identity. To put it in the language of the capability approach (which mind you is the basis for the UNDP’s Human Development Index), she wears the burqah not for its own sake but for the sake of piety, modesty, confidence and a host of other desirable things that are end in themselves. If she cannot participate in life without these functionings, then forcibly removing the burqah from her would cause her deprivation and as such less well off. That is oppression.
April 23rd, 2011 at 7:41 am
How can a garbage bag that deprives you of your identity be a part of your identity? A woman in a burqa has no identity, there is no way to tell her apart from the next women in burqa. She is a walking shadow. There is also the issue of women being coerced by male family members. In Western society covering your face is not modesty it’s regression. It’s also a problem for day to day normal functioning in society. A kid could throw on a burqa and walk into a gaming room or buy cigarettes or alcohol, many different people can use the same ID by wearing a burqa, it’s a security risk in banks and airports and it’s just not normal. Women in burqa are over-represented in extremist rallies and the ideology that promotes burqa sees women as evil seductresses who have uncontainable sexual power that threatens men hence the need for women to become faceless.
April 23rd, 2011 at 8:48 am
As: How can a garbage bag that deprives you of your identity be a part of your identity?
That’s a circular argument. You have presupposed that the burqah deprives a woman of her identity on the basis of which you fallaciously argue that a burqah cannot be a part of a woman’s identity since it deprives her of one.
As: A kid could throw on a burqa and walk into a gaming room or buy cigarettes or alcohol, many different people can use the same ID by wearing a burqa, etc.etc.
This is the same slippery slope argument Elaine made earlier. “Wearing the burqah is wrong because it may lead to things which are wrong”. As such, your reasoning is no less fallacious than Elaine’s.
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:37 am
AJ, is this another example of how “progressive” Pakistan really is?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13158001
Quit defending the sorry excuse of a country and call it for what it is. I swear, it seems like Pakistanis in the West would defend Pakistan even if al-Qaeda and the Taliban takes over.
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:40 am
Why is it that a few people here are also in denial about the over-representation of niqaabis at extremist rallies in the UK who support al-Qaeda and the Taliban?
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:44 am
Dan: AJ, is this another example of how “progressive” Pakistan really is?
If you posted that at ummah forums, I’m sure some of the members there would have blamed the court’s decision on zionists.
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:49 am
It’s not that wearing a burqa may lead you to do something bad it’s that it poses a security risk. A woman will refuse to show her face because she believes the men around her will immediately stop whatever they’re doing to gaze at her ever-so-seductive scandalously naked face. It also means special treatment for a segment of society that is deliberately being a pain in the backside. I can’t walk into an airport in a ski mask and expect not to turn heads, yet niqabis demand that. Niqab wearing women only form about 2% or something of Muslim women in the UK but they form a much higher percentage of women present at extremist rallies. The infamous “God Bless Hitler” niqabi comes to mind.
April 23rd, 2011 at 9:59 am
Lol @ the Zionists, unfortunately though that probably is true. Ah progressive Pakistan where a young woman can be gang raped at the orders of a village court because of shame her brother brought on the clan then there’s that great feminist rape law that says a woman needs four witnesses in order to prove a case of rape or face the consequences of being labelled a whore which in Pakistan can often mean an honour killing if not judicially sanctioned punishment. Yes Pakistan is a women’s rights heaven. I reckon whoever said Pakistan was more liberal than France owes the French an apology, I mean I know they have some issues in their society but comparing them to Pakistan, that’s just mean.
April 23rd, 2011 at 10:00 am
As: It’s not that wearing a burqa may lead you to do something bad it’s that it poses a security risk.
Same slippery slope. Wearing the burqah is wrong because it may lead to security risk which is wrong.
April 23rd, 2011 at 10:09 am
Dan: I swear, it seems like Pakistanis in the West would defend Pakistan even if al-Qaeda and the Taliban takes over.
Maybe SOME of the folks at ummah forum and most of the folks at islamicawakening would do, but certainly not all Western Pakistanis. Can you not stop generalizing?
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:44 am
So should we allow people into airport terminals with guns? As we all know guns don’t kill people, people kill people. There is no sane reason to wear burqa or to support the wearing of burqa. I wonder if you’d support a woman’s right to wear a miniskirt in Iran.
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:54 am
As: So should we allow people into airport terminals with guns?
How do you go from “the burqah deprives a woman of her identity” to “should we allow people into airport terminals with guns”? You are just grasping at straws now.
As: There is no sane reason to wear burqa or to support the wearing of burqa.
Circular reasoning once again.
As: I wonder if you’d support a woman’s right to wear a miniskirt in Iran.
That is irrelevant.
April 24th, 2011 at 12:31 am
“It does nothing to replace the loss of sunlight important for receiving vitamin D, which covering yourself with a shroud takes away,it does nothing to improve visibility, and nothing to improve the ability to eat or drink in public.”
Elaine do you support a ban on face veil because of the above?
April 24th, 2011 at 12:44 am
Dan just because you have started spouting nonsense from multiple IDs doesn’t make it any more valid.
April 24th, 2011 at 3:23 am
AJ how about you stop talking out of your ass next time you worthless Taliban apologist? It’s not my fault people are calling you out for being a retard claiming Pakistan is more progressive than France or Iran lmao
Go back to Swat and fight for the Taliban since you love them so much. It would make for good target practice for the Pak military hahaha
April 24th, 2011 at 4:15 am
@IbnAbuTalib: “Maybe SOME of the folks at ummah forum and most of the folks at islamicawakening would do, but certainly not all Western Pakistanis. Can you not stop generalizing?”
But there is a large segment of Pakistanis in the Western diaspora who are extremist in their thinking and make up a large portion of terrorist plots. The British Pakistani community is largely suspect of allowing extremist filth to infest their youth which leads to acts like 7/7 happening. Downplaying the extremist sentiment which exists amongst Pakistanis in the West is not going to make things better.
And as for IslamicAwakening and UmmahForums, I used to post on those sites years ago which explain why I am not in denial like AJ is. Maybe if AJ spends some time on IslamicAwakening she wouldn’t be so obsessed with conspiracy theories and acting like a victim at the same time.
April 24th, 2011 at 5:56 am
@IbnAbuTalib
I’m just pointing out that there are MANY reasons to ban the burqa.
1)It symbolizes a desire to divorce yourself from mainstream society.
2) It symbolizes a belief in a radical ideology that sees women as sexual temptresses.
3) It poses a threat to public safety
4) It creates problems like: many people using one ID card, underage individuals purchasing alcohol and tobacco.
5) It decreases peripheral vision.
And I’m sure there are many more. I would like however, one reason for wearing or promoting the wearing of burqa, other then
1) If you don’t throw a bag over your woman’s face she may seduce any and all men who see her.
2) An adherence to Wahhabism/Salafism/any of the other “isms” that have emerged amongst radical Muslims.
3) A strange fetish
4) A mental illness/lobotomy
5) Cultural relativism
You didn’t address my point, you conveniently ignored it and accused me of “pulling straws”. Should I be allowed into an airport terminal with a gun because they don’t kill people? Should I also be allowed into an airport terminal wearing a ski mask?
If you wear a burqa IMO you lose the right to whinge about employment discrimination or people looking at you funny.
April 24th, 2011 at 5:59 am
*other than:
April 24th, 2011 at 6:02 am
“I would like however, one reason for wearing or promoting the wearing of burqa, other then”
What about if the woman herself believes that wearing the burqa is the right thing to do. What if she believes that this is the pious thing to do to get close to God. We hear this many times from Muslim niqabis and Jewish ones too (“it’s the height of Frumkeit/Piety/Taqwa”)
We may disagree with her but she can do it if she wants, so long as she doesn’t force it on others or isn’t being forced herself.
Banning it is a stupid idea.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:06 am
@IbnAbuTalib
I almost missed your last point there. I’m not surprised.
Women’s rights tends to be irrelevant to Islamists unless it involves their right to manipulate their women into burqa wearing.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:12 am
What if women believed they had to chop an ear off? Should they be allowed to do that? Hindus believe in “sati” or “suttee” which is bride burning and hundreds of women in India die every year as a result of this barbaric practice.
There is an opinion within the Shafi’i madhab or school of thought, that mutilating the genitals of girls is a religious requirement that will keep them purer and more chaste.
There is that belief amongst Qutbists/Wahhabis/Salafis that infidel blood is cheap and that killing infidels is okay.
Should we start petitioning freedom of religion for some Muslims to mutilate their daughters because they believe that’s what God wants? Should we also lay off the bin Ladenists because that’s merely a “scholarly difference”. Some things are ridiculous and if some Wahhabi nutters think niqab is obligatory they can relocate their arses to Saudi Arabia or Kandahar or somewhere else where they can happily wear their garbage bag.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:18 am
Here’s a video of a rather lovely lady of Turkish origin explaining why she dumped Islam in favour of freedom.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvgBvUUt2l0&feature=related
The fact that there is nauseating coercion within the ranks of TROP is seldom mentioned.
She basically asks the question as to whether one would choose slavery as an alternative to freedom?
Sadly that’s not a rhetorical question for some Mohammedans.
Lets have some comments from you believers!
/
April 24th, 2011 at 6:25 am
^Great! Stretch it to the extreme. Good job.
There is a significant difference between putting a cloth over your face and mutilating someone’s genitals.
The Taliban could use the same logic as you. If I said to them, “what if a woman wants to not wear the burqa?”. The Taliban will respond “Well, what if a women want to walk around naked, should we allow that?”
Rather than answer the question you went on a rant about something irrelevant. Then you finished by making it clear you don’t want people who have a different style of dress from residing in your country. I find that far more objectionable than someone covering their face.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:30 am
AS, let me know when you are able to make a case against the burqah without getting into question begging/circular and slippery slope arguments, all of which you have consistently displayed in your responses, and your latest ad hominem attack by insinuating that I am an Islamist. Its not my fault that your arguments suck!
April 24th, 2011 at 6:32 am
@Anticipated Serendipidy
Love your posts based on commonsense!
You clearly are not a supporter of dogma trumping common sense.
What I do like about this blog is that they have the balls to post what one writes(highly unusual amongst the believers)
Thank you Loonwatch for your acceptance.
April 24th, 2011 at 6:32 am
BTW AS how old are you, and are you a woman?
April 24th, 2011 at 7:38 am
The “security” excuse is quite baseless. All muslims scholars who permit niqab have permitted showing the face in matters of security clearance. The whole issue infact is about imposing a secular notion upon muslim women and thereby breaking down their own “tolerance”, “liberalism”, “equalitarian” philosophy they so dearly export to the world.
And serendipity shouldn’t misrepresent the shafi position on circumcision and equate it with mutilation. You’ll find information on: http://www.shafiifiqh.com
April 24th, 2011 at 7:38 am
@IbnAbuTalib
My age is irrelevant and I am a woman. I’m assuming you’re a man?
April 24th, 2011 at 7:45 am
@IbnAbuTalib
I’m sorry of course you’re a man, “Ibn” AbuTalib didn’t notice that.
April 24th, 2011 at 8:03 am
@Mossizle
I’m perfectly happy with people wearing whatever they want but just as I would be against all-out nudity (which is illegal and considered immoral in the society I live in) I’m against covering your face. Freedom of expression has limits when it comes to clothing and I think covering your face is going a bit far.
Thankfully not too many niqabis reside in my country and the issue has been brought up but was dropped relatively quickly. I, at the time, was actually against a ban on it as I saw it as a way of slowly going down the French road, which meant eventually kicking God out of schools and banning hijabs but boy have things changed since then. I wouldn’t exactly march for an anti-burqa law but I wouldn’t march for the freedom of women and by extension, their male superiors who often impose niqab on them, to wear it. I would in a way applaud a ban if it ever came about. I read an article last year about a man in Italy where they implemented a burka ban, who said he’d have to keep his wife indoors now; that irked me. In Italy, you have this man imprisoning his wife because he believes she can’t show her face in public.
BTW this may be irrelevant but is noteworthy nonetheless, have any of you heard of the scholarly opinion that as men are “the protectors and maintainers of women” (the line between the ” ” is quoted from the Quran) if a husband and wife differ on a fiqh issue the husband’s opinion prevails? That brings us back to the Wahhabi in Italy, his wife may not agree with him but she abides by his fiqh opinion, the FGM issue is similar, he could ask her to mutilate herself.
That furthers my point that a woman may not always be choosing to wear a face veil.
April 24th, 2011 at 8:26 am
We all agree that women don’t always choose the veil. But often they do for some reason. Some actually feel that they are fulfilling a religious obligation. I’d like to add that personally I’m against the veil. No one in my family wears it, and I hope they don’t ever wear it, but if they choose to — it’s not my problem.
A full ban against the veil has only worsened things. It has made many Muslims sound the alarm that their religion is under threat in the West and this is not a good thing if you want more Muslims integrating.
For the men who force their wives to wear it, it means nothing. The women are just going to be forced to stay indoors which is even worse.
If the niqaab needs to go, it will go when the Muslim community becomes more educated about their own religion and realises that the niqaab isn’t obligatory.
Banning it actually helps extremists like Anjem Choudary, who is now able to shout “I told you so” to Muslims. He has one more thing to wave around as “proof” that Islam and Western civilisation are incompatible.
About the verse that you have heard, I think it’s important to see the Hadith in this issue. The Hadith show many incidents where women would freely debate on Islamic issue with men, even the Prophet himself! So obviously it’s an extremist interpretation that men are always right. But there are a worrying number of people who hold this view.
April 24th, 2011 at 8:31 am
I want to bring up a point as well…and this would be directed at the sisters mostly…because they understand what I am talking about.
We say it is ‘a choice’ as to what we wear…but is it really? Do we wear things to appeal to men? Do men define what ‘looks good’ on us? In a way, yes. When we wear ‘un comfortable things’ to lift this, or squish that, or enhance the other…are we really choosing what we want to wear?
Look at how women in general are looked at. What looks good, or who looks good is defined by men (yes brothers, you may tell the truth here as you stare past your wife in the passanger seat for a glance at the pedestrian with the short skirt, we see you…lol) …and even the flaws of the most physically appealing women are ‘airbrushed’ out of photographs…and to stay appealing, these models go through alot to keep thier figure. They have an army, just to get dressed. but…is it really a woman’s choice?
Sisters…most of us would never make it to the cover of those glamour magazines, or advertisements (unless it was a cleaning product, and we were fully clothed)…but we strive to look like those models to appeal to our husbands or men in general.
Honestly, to us sisters it seems, the vieled women have one up on us.
April 24th, 2011 at 8:39 am
@Anti-loon
You can’t really get me to budge when it comes to FGM. I personally know women who’ve been mutilated overseas and girls who’ve been sent overseas to be mutilated because their parents believed and still believe that it is an obligation. Oh and that was done against their will.
Last year I remember reading an article where an immigrant in an Italian town/city/whatever it was that had banned the burqa had said he would now have to keep his wife indoors as a result of the ban. That kinda irked me; in Italy you have this man imprisoning his wife because he believes God will punish them both if her face is shown in public or men will be unable to resist and will jump on her the first chance they get. There was nothing in the article to suggest that the woman’s view was relevant or mattered to him.
There is a scholarly opinion based on:
“Men are guardians over women due to what Allaah has favored some of them over others
with…”
[Quran "The Women" 4:34]
that says that if a husband and wife disagree on a fiqh issue the husband’s opinion prevails. This means that a man can force his wife into wearing a burqa as our Italian Wahhabi is doing. He can also mutilate her if he belongs to the Shafi’i madhab. I don’t remember which website I read that but I’m pretty sure it was either islamonline or islamqa.
April 24th, 2011 at 9:07 am
Woops there must have been some kind of technical error but the computer said my previous post didn’t get published (lol, is that the right word?). Sorry about that I pretty much wrote the same thing twice.
@Nur Alia
I don’t think that’s necessarily true for all women or even most women. I don’t wear make-up at all and for the most part I just wear what feels right and is socially acceptable, ie; I wouldn’t go out in lederhosen or a burka. From what I see a lot of women are actually competing with other women, and trying to look better than the next girl, some feel as though it’s a way of expressing themselves and then there are the women who are just look for some male attention, though I would safely say most Muslim women don’t fall into that category. I don’t know too many Muslim women who go out looking for a one-night-stand or a random guy to wolf whistle at them so they can feel beautiful.
April 24th, 2011 at 9:12 am
@Mosizzle
There is a lot of wisdom in your post and it had got me thinking but I think I’m gonna be stubborn and stick with my opinion on this one, though I must admit that the chutzpah of women who wear the burka despite wider society’s abhorrence of the practice is admirable in an ironic way. Being the strong-viewed, individualistic, stubborn person that I am I guess I can relate to that in a way.
April 24th, 2011 at 9:25 am
You arent gettin it. Shafi madhab does not promote mutilation, it allows circumcision. If you want to equate ALL forms of circumcision as harmful mutilation, than your equation isnt based on any facts. If your refering to harmful ones, then shafi madhab does not promote it. Its a innovated cultural evil.
And bringing up stories of some italian wahhabi is irrelevant. There are plenty of secularists who prevent their muslim wives & daughters from even covering the hair because it hurts their secular principles. That irks me too.
Being a guardian does not imply men can force women to accept their own legal position of the religion. First time im hearing such a claim. Sounds funny to give it any relevance.
April 24th, 2011 at 9:46 am
You arent gettin it. Shafi madhab does not promote mutilation, it allows circumcision. If you want to equate ALL forms of circumcision as harmful mutilation, than your equation isnt based on any facts, as far as i know. If your refering to harmful ones, then shafi madhab does not promote it. Its a innovated cultural evil.
And bringing up stories of some italian wahhabi is irrelevant. There are plenty of secularists who prevent their muslim wives & daughters from even covering the hair or obtaining religious education because it hurts their secular principles. That irks me too.
And being a guardian implys men can force women to accept their own legal position ? I dont know from where you dug up that opinion and correctness of your appllied analogical conclusion. Sounds funny to give it any relevance. Each person follows their own madhab. I mean, if there is a valid difference of opinion, than implication is that both opinion should be respected. By forcing one opinion, it isnt anymore a “difference of opinion”.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:02 am
@Anti-loon
The only reason I give it any relevance is because I found it on an Islamic q&a type website which could have a global readership of thousands. That view is not my own nor is it a view that I hear from any of the Muslims I know and it did shock me but it’s presence on a scholarly website clearly outlines that it’s not an unheard of view.
I know there are Muslims who force their daughters to abandon hijab, it’s sadly not an uncommon phenomenon and most don’t do it in the name of secularism but rather in the hope that they are protecting them from potential bullying or harrassment from their peers; though there probably are the AttaTurd-esque Muslims who force militant secularism (aka atheism) onto their womenfolk. I don’t think that there were many Attaturdists who confined their wives to their homes after Khomeini brought about mandatory hijab in Iran because their strict adherence to the religion of secularism prompted them to do so on fear of being eternally damned to a theocracy by their deity Secul, though. It’s just not as convincing as a man imprisoning his wife because he believes God wants him to.
Removing a girl’s clitoriss (I’m assuming that’s the “circumcision” you’re promoting) can cause infections later in life, permanent scarring, pregnancy and birth related complications as well as diminishing or reducing her ability to derive sexual pleasure. Neither the Quran nor Sunnah promote “circumcision” for females. I wonder how much you would support FGM if you were a woman?
There is no secularist Bible or secularist scholarly website that states that a man can force his brand of secularism onto his womenfolk. I haven’t heard of secularists throwing acid in covered women’s faces nor have I heard of a secularist father murdering his daughter because she became too “Islamicized” and decided to don a burka or hijab. And even if there is an odd case of that somewhere 5,000 honour killings, 91% of which are committed by Muslims against “morally corrupt” or “Westernized” Muslim girls/women, often their own daughters, sisters or wives is obviously a much more widespread and life-or-death phenomenon than a secularist father preventing his daughter from wearing hijab/burka.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:29 am
^Yes, apparently the Shafi’i allow it. But they make a distinction between a circumcision of the ‘prepuce’ and the mutilation of the clitoris that is quite common in Africa. FGM is without a doubt a dangerous and evil cultural practice.
However, the argument from the Shafi’i is that female circumcision of the prepuce only is the equivalent of the circumcision of the male foreskin. To be honest, I don’t understand this. And neither will the village doctors who are doing this so they will end up mutilating a girl’s genitals anyway.
The general ijma (consensus) is that FGM is haraam/forbidden and all Muslims should follow that ruling.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:41 am
There are 100 of views. Picking your own to stereotype your conclusion and thereby emotionally support the ban on hijab is fallicious. There are ultra-conservatives in every religion. So are there false opinions by some so called scholar in every religion.
You can make excuses for secularist control freaks and im sure the ultra conservatives will have their own excuses.
And nope, circumcision is not refering to removing the clitoris. see the fatwa:
http://www.shafiifiqh.com/?p=630
And then finally your “acid throw” and “murder” again smacks of fallacy. They dont do it because Islam said so. No where does islam say so. Acid throw is a cultural mindset in south asian subcontinent irrespective of religion. Many of the cases are some romance failure, rather than anything to do with religion. You should be attacking secularism in South Africa based on the high rates of women abuse. Comparing developed societys with developing or under developed society would be fallicious.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:55 am
“I know there are Muslims who force their daughters to abandon hijab, it’s sadly not an uncommon phenomenon and most don’t do it in the name of secularism but rather in the hope that they are protecting them from potential bullying or harrassment from their peers; though there probably are the AttaTurd-esque Muslims who force militant secularism (aka atheism) onto their womenfolk. I don’t think that there were many Attaturdists who confined their wives to their homes after Khomeini brought about mandatory hijab in Iran because their strict adherence to the religion of secularism prompted them to do so on fear of being eternally damned to a theocracy by their deity Secul, though. It’s just not as convincing as a man imprisoning his wife because he believes God wants him to. ”
Ataturk’s wife wore the hijab and he never instituted any ban on hijab, FYI.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:58 am
@hellosnackbar
First of all thanks for the praise.
Irrelevant but here goes: I was on jihad watch and I remember reading last year a comment that mentioned “aloha snack bar” as a sort of pardody of “Allahu Akbar”, that fact coupled with your use of the obsolete term “Mohameden” that has been resurrected by anti-Islamics in the hopes of offending Muslims leads me to conclude that you’re a curious sub-species of the human (or at least we think they’re human) race known as the JWer.
I’m Muslim btw so I obviously don’t agree with Islam = slavery and your link doesn’t work. There are lots of atheists who claim to see the light and convert to (insert religion here), just as there are many religious people who abandon religion for “science” or “common sense” as they like to say and adherents of religion A who convert to religion B; I can post you hundreds of YouTube videos of Christians, atheists, Jews, and just about any other group converting to Islam.
April 24th, 2011 at 11:08 am
Attaturd’s wife eventually abandoned hijab and his drunk arse, I do know that the hijab ban in schools, universities and wherever else it applies was introduced by the military in the 1997 coup d’état (well it wasn’t exactly a coup d’état but close enough IMO). Turkey has a penchant for military takeovers, there have been about four or five since the birth of the Turkish republic. There was a quote I found funny made by a general whose name I don’t recall that went something like “In Turkey we have a marriage of democracy and Islam and that marriage produced a child called secularism, every now and then that child gets sick and so the military acts as the doctor that restores secularism”.
April 24th, 2011 at 11:09 am
^The above was in response to Dan’s comment.
April 24th, 2011 at 11:13 am
What a fail, hellosnackbar. You’re right AS, he’s nothing but an Islamophobe and he’s said worse things on this site before about Islam/Muslims.
April 24th, 2011 at 11:34 am
@Anti-loon
I don’t support and never would support a hijab ban, you should read my posts in their entirety before throwing about accusations based on false assumptions. I would be very against anything as abhorrent as a hijab ban, a niqab does not equal hijab or modesty and there are legitimate reasons for banning it.
I am not defending ultra-secularists at all I’m merely pointing out that in places like Pakistan where acid-throwing happens it doesn’t happen to girls accused of being overly “Islamic” it is unleashed on girls who refuse to don a veil. Hekmaty is known to have engaged in the practice of throwing acid into the faces of unveiled women and that behaviour spread to Kashmir where some Islamists began doing the same thing.
Im not blaming Islam I don’t consider burka a fundamental aspect of Islam any more than I consider FGM, stoning, beheading, etc to be Islamic, though the only country that has beheading as the official mode of execution is a self-described “Islamic” country, the only countries where stonings are condoned are self-described “Islamic” ones and there is a madhab within Sunni Islam that is accepting of FGM.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) didn’t go around throwing acid in women’s faces and neither the Quran or the Sunnah promote the practice but it does happen.
I never compared Pakistan to the West but when you want to bring a practice from the Third World (burka) to the West you lose the right to demand that under-developed societies not be compared to developed ones.
April 24th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
Elaine so do you or don’t you support a ban on face veil?
April 24th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
This is getting ridiculous! I can’t believe how judgemental some of you are calling niqab “tents” “garbage bags”, etc. There are many women who CHOOSE to wear hijabs/niqabs because they believe it’s in the Quran. This does not affect us at all! As far as security, like I said before, women wearing niqabs can be checked by other women. Besides, most crimes have been committed by people who don’t wear niqabs. Let’s not be arrogant and let’s not stereotype and assume they’re all either oppressed or radicals or use the lousy security excuse to hide your prejudice. Forcing people to cover or uncover is just plain wrong and people should be able to wear whatever they want as long as it doesn’t affect us.
April 24th, 2011 at 11:15 pm
A woman putting a piece of cloth on her face is NOT comparable to a person removing somebody’s clitoris or somebody’s head. What stupid comparisons.
April 25th, 2011 at 12:34 am
Well AJ it’s all of the same cloth; cultural relativism.
April 25th, 2011 at 4:43 am
^As though secular culture static. Maybe France should make a official dress code like Iran and Saudi.
April 25th, 2011 at 5:35 am
Banning face veils isn’t as draconian as making girls and women wear them on pain of flogging, fines, being beaten up in the street by the Basij/Morality police/Shari’ah squad/haram police or whatever you want to call them. You may get fined or cautioned but I’m certain you won’t be beaten up by the secularist police who roam the streets of France to implement secularist law.
April 25th, 2011 at 7:10 am
@ Elaine:
EVERYTHING is culturally relative. What YOU define as oppression, another might view as independence. What YOU view as normal might be seen as horribly oppressive to another.
Case in point, YOUR culture views female breasts as a horrible taboo. I’ve been in parts of the world where women whip out their breasts all the time to feed their children and nobody looks twice. There are quite a few cultures where bear breasts are the norm. Similarly, within American culture there are Christian groups who insist that their women grow their hair long and wear skirts as a sign of subservience to their men. Should we ban long hair and skirts too then, or are said Christian sects given a pass because they are viewed as ‘native’?
> There is also a case to be made that some of the women wearing it in the
> UK (and maybe France as well) are doing so as a clear gesture of contempt
> for the people they live around.
Even if you are right, so what? Part of living in a democratic society means putting up with people who have divergent opinions… even *gasp* people who hate the culture around them. Should flag burning be banned too? Should Fred Phelps be banned from running his ‘god hates america’ website? Freedom of speech includes unpopular speech. Speaking of which, I have a fairly decent collection of offensive t-shirts I think I will wear again.
> This is another reason to try and stop the practice, but it would be
> hard to justify legislating against anti-social behavior, otherwise you
> would have to do the same to rebellious youths that dress in the “goth”
> style and pierce their tongues for amusement.
Speaking as a Goth with a penchant for leopard print, I find that one quite amusing. You’ve gotta get out more love. I mean, seriously.
This argument can apply to female circumcision too. As much as I may find it distasteful, I’m also going against the grain here. It IS a central part of East African religions, where as it was once described to me, it’s viewed as ‘fixing’ a human being. Children undergo all kinds of rites of passage before becoming adults, and circumcision (both male and female) is a pretty common and widespread one. In the Sudan, the Nuer undergo facial scarification. The Luo, in Kenya, have several of their teeth removed. None of these groups are Muslim, I should point out, though there are some Muslim and Christian converts.
Honestly, I don’t know HOW the Shafi’i madhab came to allow the practice of female circumcision, especially since the practice isn’t native to Indonesia (the largest Shafi’i country) at all. It’s common enough in Egypt, but only because of the slave trade (black African nannies and housekeepers from East Africa introduced the practice). You’ll note that female circumcision is not condoned in the Maliki madhab, and consequently it is not practiced in North Africa or West Africa. At least in the Muslim areas. I’d honestly have to check whether non-Muslim peoples like the Dogon have it.
As for snackbar, I’d put more stock in his claims of ‘freedom’ if he weren’t simply parroting the same crap as all of his friends. It’s kind of like the wanna-be rebellous kids in high school. “I’m a non-conformist… just like all my friends.” Get a life man. We Muslims are a minority here in America, and it’s not like it’s an easy religion to practice. I’m Muslim because I CHOOSE to be. You try being a minority for a week and then, if you have the conviction to stand by your beleifs, we can talk
April 25th, 2011 at 8:07 am
“Well AJ it’s all of the same cloth”
WTH! That’s some serious generalization!How can you compare a modest woman to barbaric crimes?! You need to get out of your little bubble and get out more! There are many hijabis/niqabis who are very happy and have wonderful husbands who respect and love them. Stop focusing on just the negative. The media loves to focus on this because it helps give them the ratings they crave but we should know better. We should know that some barbaric crimes is done by only minority of people of different faiths. Whining about it thousands of miles away is not helping but adding more to the bigotry.
Please stop comparing extremists to women who simply want to dress modestly of their own accord. I’m missing the days when we used to respect people from different schools of thoughts.
April 25th, 2011 at 8:16 am
Khushboo,
They are all prejudiced against Islam. It scares the loons over here. They make it sound as if they are worried about women not getting enough vitamin D and not have wind blowing in their faces buts its all Islamophobia.
Well, I have news for you. Islam is for here to stay. It will grow. You guys can fear it and do all the planning to oppose it but Allah’s plan is bigger than all of yours.
April 25th, 2011 at 8:34 am
They are worried about women being oppressed because she covers herself and doesn’t have the two assets in front and two on the bottom displayed all the time….
BTW here a song from Dawud Wharnsby about the veil. Perfect song to listen to for this occasion and below are the lyrics too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA7i_kQ1rTY
To the loons over here I say:
So lift the veil from your heart to see the heart of purity.
THE VEIL (LYRICS)
They say, “Oh, poor girl, you’re so beautiful you know
It’s a shame that you cover up your beauty so.”
She just smiles and graciously responds reassuringly,
“This beauty that I have is just one simple part of me.
This body that I have, no stranger has the right to see.
These long clothes, this shawl I wear, ensure my modesty.
Faith is more essential than fashion, wouldn’t you agree?
This hijab,
This mark of piety,
Is an act of faith, a symbol,
For all the world to see.
A simple cloth, to protect her dignity.
So lift the veil from your heart to see the heart of purity.
They tell her, “Girl, don’t you know this is the West and you are free?
You don’t need to be opressed, ashamed of your femininity.”
She just shakes her head and she speaks so assuredly,
“See the bill-boards and the magazines that line the check-out isles, with their phony painted faces and their air-brushed smiles?
Well their sheer clothes and low cut gowns are really not for me.
You call it freedom, I call it anarchy.”
This hijab,
This mark of piety,
Is an act of faith, a symbol,
For all the world to see.
A simple cloth, to protect her dignity.
So lift the veil from your heart to see the heart of purity.
Lift the veil from your heart and seek the heart of purity.
April 25th, 2011 at 9:16 am
AJ: “Khushboo,
They are all prejudiced against Islam. It scares the loons over here. They make it sound as if they are worried about women not getting enough vitamin D and not have wind blowing in their faces buts its all Islamophobia.
Well, I have news for you. Islam is for here to stay. It will grow. You guys can fear it and do all the planning to oppose it but Allah’s plan is bigger than all of yours.”
Boo hoo, is that all you got you victimizing retard? Go move to Pakistan if you love it more than the West.
I also got news for you, the West is also here to stay. And many people in the West don’t want Taliban supporting wackos like you within their midst, and will fight against them too.
Go back to defending a failed nation that acquits rapists and throws acid on women. You would defend Chechen women donning niqabs and taking schools hostage and bombing airport terminals and then claiming that all Muslims are victims. Give me a break. Why don’t you go post on extremist sites like IslamicAwakening instead? It’s right up your alley Miss Taliban supporter.
April 25th, 2011 at 9:44 am
@Zak
First of all East African nannies did not introduce FGM to the Egyptians. The barbaric practice originated with them during the times of the Pharaohs. FGM began in the Nile Valley and Ancient Egypt then spread throughout Africa. I don’t believe in people being allowed to practice barbarity because they believe it is a part of their religion or culture or whatever else and quite frankly I don’t want FGM and other harmful practices to become a part of the society that I live in.
@AJ
All you can yap about is how women who don’t fit your view of modesty are oppressed. I’d like an example of a woman who is being forced on pain of having acid thrown in her face or her family punishing her, to wear a miniskirt. I can however cite various examples of women being coerced into wearing burka.
You accuse me of bigotry for believing that women who dress differently are being oppressed yet you claim that women dressing “immodestly” are being oppressed. You’re doing exactly what I’m doing by claiming bikini-clad women are victims of oppression though you have a very weak case.
I can provide examples and I’m sure you can find some on your own of burka-wearing women with burnt faces and missing noses because they refused to cover.
Now I want you to provide proof of scantily dressed women who’ve been forced to and who are at risk of having acid thrown into their faces if they cover up.
Burqa is the pinnacle of the objectification of women; you are no longer a person with a smile and a frown and face, you are merely a shadow no different from the next shadow. It turns women into “things” with no identity and a woman becomes a sexual object that yields power so intense that she must be completely invisible so she can’t harm the men around her. Yes Islam is here to stay and I’m glad for that. Burka on the other hand belongs in the dustbins of history.
@Khushboo
This is a problem I have with the burka. It’s advocates claim it’s modesty and deride other Muslim women who believe they can be modest without forfeiting their identity. Burka is not modesty it’s regression and extremism.
April 25th, 2011 at 9:54 am
Dan , are you a comedian? Because the way you keep repeating the same nonsense is nothing short of inane and funny. Get a life and a new set of buzzwords while you’re at it. You don’t seem to have realised but the old phrases of ‘Chechen suicide bombers’, ‘acid throwing Afghans’, ‘honour killings’ and frequent screams of ‘go and live in Pakistan AAARGGH’ just fail to have any effect when they’re constantly being flung at people who don’t have anything to do with them, but they do make you sound both childish and desperate. I might not know all LW members personally, but it seems quite clear to me that they’re not the IA crowd that you keep whining about, like a jealous schoolgirl. Please find another comments section to treat as your emotional-barf bag in the future
April 25th, 2011 at 10:26 am
Dan (and your other selves) – same old same old!
April 25th, 2011 at 10:45 am
“And many people in the West don’t want Taliban supporting wackos like you within their midst, and will fight against them too. ”
I am a Muslim and I love both nations, USA and Pakistan and thanks Allah, bigots like you are one in a few. Be jealous, be very jealous! You know what the immigration people told our hijab clad and obviously Muslim looking family as we moved through, “Welcome home and Khuda Hafiz”. And this staff was not Muslim or Pakistani.
April 25th, 2011 at 10:50 am
lol@khuda hafiz. Most Pakistanis are too obsessed with looking and sounding like an Arab to say Khuda Hafiz nowadays.
You’re not deluding me. I bet you also pronounce Pakistan as ‘Bakistan’ hahaha
Pakistanis have the most serious identity issues of any Muslim nation with their obsession of trying to look like a Bedouin from Saudi Arabia instead of being proud of their own culture. No wonder why so many like to bomb their own shrines since it’s ‘kufr’.
No one is jealous of Pakistan you moron, there’s nothing to be jealous of a failed state where they think having 20-30 kids to “outbreed the kuffar” is going to make them victorious.
April 25th, 2011 at 10:53 am
And AJ, you lost all credibility when you had the nerve to claim Pakistan is more progressive for women than France or Iran, so don’t talk as if you know anything. I suggest you stop talking before you humiliate yourself even further, especially defending a sorry excuse of a nation that bullies its non-Muslim minorities and attempting to save face (yet failing at it at the same time).
Moron.
April 25th, 2011 at 11:17 am
“Most Pakistanis are too obsessed with looking and sounding like an Arab to say Khuda Hafiz nowadays.
You’re not deluding me. I bet you also pronounce Pakistan as ‘Bakistan’ hahaha
Pakistanis have the most serious identity issues of any Muslim nation with their obsession of trying to look like a Bedouin from Saudi Arabia instead of being proud of their own culture. No wonder why so many like to bomb their own shrines since it’s ‘kufr’.”
Again generalizations and failed ones at that. I was wearing a shalwar kamiz thats why the immigration staff said “khuda hafiz”. I am sure since you always complain about immigrants not integrating in their new societies, you perhaps color your hair a shade of platinum like Wilders and call yourself “Dan”. LOL
April 25th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
No AJ, I personally have experienced many Pakistanis who are sick with the disease of Arabization. They are completely convinced that Pakistani culture is itself ‘kufr’ and they have to emulate everything a Bedouin does from Arabia, including down to even speaking Urdu with a Khaleeji Arabic accent. Pakistanis complain about Islamophobia in the West yet they bend over and put up with the widespread abuse their Gulf Arab masters put them through. Discrimination is far worse in the Persian Gulf for Desi Muslims but it doesn’t seem to bother them. Pakistanis are more outraged over Palestinians being murdered than they are by Pakistani mercenaries murdering Bahraini protesters since they are ‘kaffir Shi’a’ in their view. Even my own parents have discarded “Khuda Hafiz” in favor of “Allah Hafiz” for crying out loud.
And yes I do complain about immigrants not integrating like extremist garbage who come to the West and bitch about how immoral Western society is and how they don’t want to mingle with “kaffirs”, unlike you who would rather stay silent and support them while engaging in a victimization mentality. I bet you also think Faisal Shahzad is an “imprisoned brother” like so many retards on IslamicAwakening forums do.
April 26th, 2011 at 10:57 am
Yes, yes, yes Dan, we all get it. We’ve heard you parroting back the same Islamophobic allegations every other day now for quite some time. Muslim immigrants are evil and scary for wearing shalwar-kameez and eating falafel. We also sacrifice babies, burn the American flag and don’t brush our teeth too, right?
The thing is, you throw around some random fact here or there to demonstrate superficial knowledge of Bakistan, but you also buy into a lot of bullshit that nobody who has spent any amount of time living there would buy into. Yeah, there ARE people who pretend to be Arab for whatever reason, and in Lahore at least they were viewed as a JOKE!
The other claim that amuses me is the one about Pakistanis having tons of kids to ‘take over from the kuffar.’ I’ve never heard such crap even from the craziest people, in Pakistan or the diaspora. In fact, it sounds MUCH more like the fear mongering of right wingers in Europe who fear the faceless brown mass of humanity replacing their pure, lily white one. Yeah, Pakistanis have big families… so do most people in traditional societies.
Are black Africans trying to overtake Europe too? Are Indonesians? Are the Chinese? Or is it maybe, just maybe, because people who still live in (or come from) a predominantly agricultural setting where infant mortality rates are still shockingly high and concepts like ‘retirement’ and ‘sociel security’ have little meaning see having large families as an ASSET rather than a liability?
No, I think given your particular flavour of rhetoric and superficial knowledge about Pakistan in general, I’d guess that you are someone with an axe to grind. Especially given the insidious way in which evangelicals work, infiltrating groups to sow dissent while pretending to be a member. If I had to guess, I’d say you were either a Pakistani convert to Christianity, likely Pakistani American or Pakistani British, or you were a white evangelical missionary or some such who goes through the country, likely claiming to be an English teacher or some such rotter.
Am I right? ‘Dan’ hardly seems like a typical South Asian name, even for a Christian…
Anyway, since you hate Pakistan and hate Islam so much, why even bother? I’m more than willing to debate, but it seems rather silly to me to get your panties in a knot over this. If you don’t want to deal with Pakistani immigrants, don’t. Go move to some small town in Kansas where nobody knows what Urdu is and the most ‘ethnic’ food they’ve ever seen is a pizza. Everyone will be much happier that way.
I, however, have no particular desire to accommodate your bigotry. In fact, I do believe I will wear my kurta today. And I’ll definitely have a 7alal lunch. I’m not going to turn my back on what I believe simply because it hurts your feelings. It’s part of living in a democratic society.
April 26th, 2011 at 11:06 am
> No AJ, I personally have experienced many Pakistanis who are sick with
> the disease of Arabization.
I wasn’t aware that ‘Arab culture’ was a disease. Guess I better get inoculated against Maghrebi flu now. Is ‘westernization’ a disease too? What about Négritude? Pan-Africanism? And so forth…
> Pakistanis complain about Islamophobia in the West yet they bend over
> and put up with the widespread abuse their Gulf Arab masters put them
> through. Discrimination is far worse in the Persian Gulf for Desi
> Muslims but it doesn’t seem to bother them.
Discrimination against Asians of all races and religions (as well as Arabs) is rife through the Gulf. The Emirati government would rather accommodate wealthy white European and American business interests. Funny thing is that those guys are JUST as bad as the local Arab elites in their abuses yet you don’t mention them at all. It’s not exactly like it’s a secret that expats get preferential treatment and can (and do) some pretty awful things to both locals and Asian workers.
> Pakistanis are more outraged over Palestinians being murdered than they
> are by Pakistani mercenaries murdering Bahraini protesters since they
> are ‘kaffir Shi’a’ in their view.
The US is the one propping up the al-Khalifa dynasty. The US sat silently back and allowed the massacre to happen because the Sunni minority allowed a big ass naval base. But you won’t mention that one either.
April 26th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Zakariya you do realize that most Pakistani Sunnis don’t consider you Muslim to begin with? Jamaat-i-Islaami obviously don’t. And here you are doubting me on being Muslim just because I think Pakistan is a sorry excuse of a country that most people here view as paradise LOL
April 26th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
AJ, I am not Dan, nor am I an agent of his. I am I, and Dan is Dan.
I neither agree with all he says, nor disagree with all you say. I will however say, you are bigoted towards Arabs. Not all Arabs are racist. Neither are all Pakistani’s racist. However AJ would do well to remember that Bengali’s say that Pakistan is racist.
You criticise JW, and accuse me of being Dan’s cousin or Dan himself, but you cannot see your own flaws. I don’t believe you’re a Taliban supporter like Dan says, but I do feel that you have a need to “cover” for those that should not be covered. And yes, I do support the right of niqabi’s to wear niqab if they want to. I’ll fight for a womans’ right to do that just like i’ll fight against those men who force women to do so.
Zakariya, racism is rife in all societies, it just hasn’t been regulated in the UAE or even Pakistan for that matter. Even in societies where it has, it still rears it’s head, the Republican right wing, Evangelicals for example believed in white supremacy, and that blacks were theri god given slaves. If anything, i’d say the societies that practice it or have no rules to ban it or punish the perpetrators are honest.
It’s ironic that they are all propped up by the USA as you said.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Zakariya,
I am a Muslim with a Sunni background and I consider anyone Muslim that takes the Shahada and I am not alone in my beliefs.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:10 pm
Zak, well said.
Dan, just as you make outlandish claims about Pakistanis I could with the same token say that you aren’t a Muslim at all. You do realise that you are perceived as an extremist (albiet not a religious one). Why don’t you and your buddy Suleyman (aah aren’t they cute when they defend each other’s bigotry) take your hatred for Pakistan somewhere else, this is Loonwatch, and you are being watched.
Dan said “Zakariya you do realize that most Pakistani Sunnis don’t consider you Muslim to begin with? Jamaat-i-Islaami obviously don’t. And here you are doubting me on being Muslim just because I think Pakistan is a sorry excuse of a country that most people here view as paradise LOL”.
Oh dear here we go again with more sweeping generalisations, with emphasis on the word “MOST”. How did you come to the conclusion that MOST Pakistanis don’t consider Zak as Muslim? Jamaat-i-Islaami? Who are they? Are they the “MOST”? I think any decent Muslim would not being stereotyping other Muslim nations and blame the whole country for the actions of a few nutjobs. Your level of hatred is apalling and anyone defending you should be ashamed of themselves.
And why must you pick on AJ so much, she is a woman, treat her with some dignity and in return you will be respected. You sound like a School bully, using abusive language is not a tenant of Islam.
April 28th, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Sam thanks!
April 30th, 2011 at 8:36 am
I think that no country and no man should force any woman to cover or to not cover.
The decision to cover is rightly made by the woman, according to her understanding of the Quran and of her own intentions.
The beautiful testimony of Ms. Amina A above should not be missed. In fact, I hope she submits it for publication in other places so it can be widely read.
May 3rd, 2011 at 9:36 am
I will end the discussion for all of you. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that they can wear it. Period! You can’t live in a free society without accepting other peoples beliefs, customs etc. even though you may think they are stupid or silly! Lobby your politicians to change the Charter to include a footnote stating that “we as a people of Canada have feedom of rights, religious beliefsand freedom of expressions (except for the Hijab!) Do you realize how silly that sounds, and how ignorant you are?
June 21st, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Yes … ban the burka, the hijab.. . let these pretty women be free… because this is not a question of religion but a ruling of the men. So let these pretty girls live their lives normally.
June 21st, 2011 at 8:10 pm
@Frida
Under that logic, can we ban trousers and shorts too. After all who wants to be imprisoned by patriarchal leg covering that doesn’t let them show their beautiful crotches to the rest of the world
July 5th, 2011 at 11:32 am
I seen a women wearing a vail over her face in a mall and it pissed me off even my kids were felt thretened by it. I see it again I will take it off he my self, I am not going to stand for thid crap. We dont go to there countries pushing our beleifs on them. When we go to there countries we follow there rulls, cant drink in public covering tattos up. The best get a grip and get over it before I see another one or it will be coming off.
July 7th, 2011 at 5:53 am
This is their choice, but why any other immigrants that comes in to this big country does not impose their beliefs, their laws, and they all dress the same way we do. Wearing the hijab is not a question of religion at all, it is imposed on women by their husbands. So this is not the way Canada operates, here everyone is free to wear what they want, do not be afraid to uncover yourself and if you are … go get help. Love ya!
July 15th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
The answer is simple: yes! Not only Canada but ALL civilized nations must ban anything that is even remotely connected with Islam. No one wants to go back to the dark ages that are represented by Muhammad’s ideas and the Koran’s injunctions. And any attempt to “explain” is frankly useless. How can one explain the unexplainable? A short comment is certainly more adequate for this forum than the endless disartations one sees but never reads.
July 31st, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Jayson Rex I think I am also your father!
September 14th, 2011 at 10:48 pm
muslims here are saying if west bans viel we will ban bible your stupid actions put us in trouble i have nothing aganst viel and many christians here wear purda like muslims even in churches its a cultural thing
September 18th, 2011 at 10:26 am
i’m a muslim and i’m with the ban. As many scholars especially from al-azhar stated that “burqa” is an Arabian tradition. beside, why would anyone hide his identity like that?
October 10th, 2011 at 8:01 pm
Yes, it should be ban.
October 10th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
[blockquote]
Yes … ban the burka, the hijab.. . let these pretty women be free… because this is not a question of religion but a ruling of the men. So let these pretty girls live their lives normally.
[/blockquote]
I agree
October 10th, 2011 at 8:05 pm
I agree
October 17th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
I think it is a governments right to protect it’s most vulnerable citizens. Women and children are the most vulnerable, and they are oppressed by corrupted men who force their family members to live the life they want. If choice is involved in dressing, I have no problem. My problem is when we are forced to wearing things that we are just not comfortable with. Wearing a burka isn’t comfortable at all. It is not even practical in the 110 degree weather most of Middle East is under. Wearing a burka is mandatory and is implemented by selfish, jealous and misogynistic men to fulfill their own irrational insecurities. It has nothing to do with women and how they dress by choice. It is insecure men who get jealous when other men look at their women.
Some women do wear the burka by choice. They wear it because they feel comfortable going out with it. They know men won’t be sexually assaulting them with their eyes. This is a valid fear. But the only reason Muslim society have so many desperate men have exactly to do with the repression of sex. The difference between a Muslim country and non-Muslim country is exactly the result of repression of one of our most natural desire. When a whole culture of men are repressed, the result is increased tension and intense craving. And that is exactly what you see in Muslim countries. A woman can’t walk out of her house without a burka because men are drooling over them.
In western society it isn’t like that. Sure men are still men, but they aren’t obsessing over women who show their hair. Normally, it is rude for men to stare at women. In Muslim society, men don’t stare. It’s as if they are sexually assaulting women and young girls with their eyes. I’ve personally experienced this. It is amazing how comfortable women are in the west. They can go out when ever they choose. In Muslim society they are most likely a prisoner in their own home, or a prisoner in their own burka.
November 1st, 2011 at 1:02 am
Amina tells a good story about how she switched back and forth between wearing her hijab or not. this was in relation to the story “should Canada ban the headscarf”
Here is my question: does she realize that she benefits from our freedoms, freedoms that would be denied under true islamic law? She could not have done her spiritual journey had she lived in Saudia or Afghanistan. the point of keeping Islam at bay is to keep our freedoms available to us.
December 1st, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Aint gonna happen. Canada is easily the best country to live in for Muslims – this argument was rejected long ago as blatantly against our Charter of Rights.
My wife wears a Niqab – I’m not worried one bit.
December 21st, 2011 at 10:05 am
First I am not Muslim. I have a few questions and concerns with woman in Canada wearing the burka. While on a cold day here in Canada I suspect that most look similar to this type of dress, however, we take this clothing off when we enter a heated building.
While I don’t really understand the point of the burka, who am I to judge if this is appropriate or not. I believe in religious freedoms and don’t see any reason for governments to impose laws to prohibit their people from following their traditions and beliefs. However, if the practice is deemed immoral or may break other laws this is where governments have hard decisions to make. Owning a morning star in Canada is illegal, however, what if this was part of a religion – should we allow these people to carry this weapon because of religion freedoms? Others may, and probably would take advantage of this and might just start to carry this weapon claiming to be part of that religion.
The challenge with the burka isn’t the religious situation, it is, IMHO, where people – criminals – might, and have, used the burka to hide their identity and commit crimes. How then as a community do we stop this from happening and balance the individual rights of the people?
Further, if government, bank or other official were to ask for picture ID try to match this to someone wearing a burka how would this be handled? Identity fraud is on the rise and therefore identification is becoming something or great importance. Again a criminal could hide behind a religious law and a burka to commit crimes.
Regardless of what is decided it is a tough spot for law makers.
December 23rd, 2011 at 10:30 am
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December 31st, 2011 at 9:43 pm
Just not practicle to hide ones idenity in any society today for security reasons.I will let those of you who are more educated about the muslim religion argue about the religious,comfort reasons involved with covering the head and face.
For many of us it is not a racist or anti Muslim act to want Muslim garb to disappear but one of safety and security. I am never comfortable interfering with anyones religious beliefs .As an American I believe everyones religious freedoms should be respected,unfortunately that innocense has disappeared along with the joy that used to accompany flying. The world has changed for all of us,regardless of religious beliefs.
January 4th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
We should respect Muslim cultures as Muslim should respect ours. It is just a reciprocity.
February 4th, 2012 at 10:38 am
AJ said:
Pakistan has not banned any form of religious or non-religious clothing.
Oh really?
They have banned everything. Here is a real law from Pakistan. This is practically slavery.
Ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_XX
February 4th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
@John, relax yourself buddy, AJ addressed the religious clothing, not the ahmadi community, and certainly Pakistan hasn’t “banned eveything”, the country surely has some problems, but those problems certainly are partly due to war-addict Western world interfering in the region as usual. So save your propaganda.
———————-
Oh God! It’s simply too huge of a task to refute them all, but the comment section of this thread is surely full of imbecile thoughts.
February 4th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
@Géji: Did you even read the statement of the law? It does mean everything; for good measure they have added the most generic form of slavery there could be; ‘in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims’. So its not even defined what Ahmadis do that will be illegal; its left up to others to decide on the fly what offends them and the Ahmadis will have it. What a joke.
I see you are embarrassed; your pedestal comes crashing down as soon as your treatment of Ahmadiyya comes into question. If anything think yourself as the Ahmadiyya of Canada and be happy that you are not being treated as bad as them in Muslim countries. So cheer up its not so bad.
“Oh God! It’s simply too huge of a task to refute them all, but the comment section of this thread is surely full of imbecile thoughts.”
Ah yes when unable to refute your wrong doings blame the other side for being Islamophobes, imbecile and what not. How long do you think you can carry on like this? One day you’ll have to face the truth.
February 4th, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Dan writes: Why don’t these Canadian women who want to wear the veils go move to Saudi Arabia instead?
We have a special fund devoted to sending muslims to Saudi Arabia. Send your check to Muslim America, PO Box 231, Springdale, Washington 99173-0095, USA. Thank you.
February 4th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Amina A wrote (very well), among other things: I went back and examined the verses of the Quran referring to covering. I asked myself what was the purpose in covering. Was it supposed to be a way of showing others how religious we were, the way that we had understood it?
Go back and read the verses again. The reason for covering is clearly stated: “So that you may be recognized and not bothered.”
Of course, this presupposes a social environment made up of people with a modicum of manners and respect for others. This is found in America only in small secluded pockets here and there, and seldom in the cities other than in the rat-race workplace. Americans, who are justifiably angry for reason they can’t fathom, are free to be as uncivil as they wish, short of injurious physical altercation, and seldom restrain their anger without some kind of external restraint.
Even so, the natural charisma of a muslim or muslimah strengthens the warding effect of covering, and although the boys are frustrated and angered by the unapproachability of the covered muslim woman, as at root their egos demand that every woman readily lay down and spread their legs for them, hijab and niqab are more powerful, usually, than their infantile urges.
Of course they will protest, with bad manners. They don’t know any better. Thus many muslim women ~ if not most ~ train in martial arts, or carry mace or pepper stray for the benefit of those unable to restrain their animal impulses on their own.
It’s not easy to live among people saturated with fear and adrenaline addiction, but that’s just a Sign of the Times, and we benefit everyone by holding fast to the Rope.
February 4th, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Jinn Says: It’s funny how all these Canadian newspapers and media outlets reach out to “Muslim Canadian Congress” for all Islamic/Muslim related issues. Not knowing they don’t represent even 1% of Muslim support in Canada.
Don’t kid yourself ~ they know exactly what they’re doing and which “muslims” they want people to see. Have you ever seen a temperate, reasonable, articulate, calm, knowledgeable muslim in any “mainstream” media?
February 4th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Marwan writes: I do agree that the Niqab is not part of real Islamic Tradition which merely required that we dress with modesty and not flaunt our ‘naughty bits.’ As a Muslim I do see the wearing of the full face covering as an interpolation and more relating to an aspect of tribal/patriarchal mindset unrelated to Muslim Tradition.
You’re mistaken. The wives of the Messenger were required to veil, during his lifetime and after.
February 4th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
@John, I’m afraid you just crossed to imbecile valley I was referring to in regard to this comment section … First you maligned @AJ which was only addressing the clothing aspect of Pakistan, and not the Ahmadi community… 2th, the article is addressing veil, not the Ahmadi community…Then when I asked you to please relax since no one is referring to Ahmadis to begin with, and not be so bitter toward people of this forum which you know none personally if they’re Pro or anti-Ahmadis, here you go continuing on the bitter road this time turning on me without valid reason…. I’m not from Pakistan, I’ve personally never met an Ahmadi, or maybe I did since I meet a lot of different Muslims every Friday at my Mosque, but not all of them state their “sect”…I know Ahmadis are mostly from South-Asia, cause I’ve never heard of many Ahmadi Arabs, I’ve also heard that they’re having hard time in some Southern Asia countries, Particularly Pakistan, and of course is wrong to oppress any group however one might disagree or reject the belief system of said group… However, it’s not by attacking or tacking your frustration on LoonWatchers whom you only “assume” they’re from Pakistan that you’ll solve the burden on the Ahmadis, it’s not through aggressive language that you’ll win hearts to your cause…. I personally have no problem if they want to see themselves as Muslims, I think no one has the right to say otherwise, although of course I disagree with some of their belief system, as long as one says – La ilaha illallah muhammad rasulullah – no one has a right to say they’re not Muslims, that’s up-to Allah at the end… But I also think they themselves have to make some compromises, and not blame all their problems on the greater Muslim Community, I think it’s unfair to ask of the mainstream Muslims to accept all aspects and all the demands of Ahmadis to integrate into the wider Muslim community… I believe both side have to make some compromises in this respect in order to unite, especially now that Muslims regardless of “sects” have plenty of enemies who are working hard day and night to undermine Islam as a whole…lets not divide into pitiful “sects” to satisfy the enemies of Islam….Peace.
February 22nd, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Why cover your face if you have nothing to hide? Immigrants should show the respect of adhering to the cultural norms of the countries they move to. Otherwise why not go elsewhere?
March 1st, 2012 at 4:45 pm
From my perspective this ban is a silly and wasteful idea. Most Canadians spend at least half of their lives, with the exception of the two months of spring summer and fall, covered from head to foot in seal skin fur. Extinct wild animals are used for parkas and oil from oil sands are used to heat their igloos and trucks.
Singling out muslim garb will not really have much of an impact I would think. I am an expert on Canada from Mexico by the way.
March 6th, 2012 at 11:12 am
Veil make Muslim women ugly and horror. Stupid Islam teaching create by Muhammad terrorist
March 6th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Peace… your getting ridiculous.
March 14th, 2012 at 2:52 am
If you don’t like it, move to Saudi.
March 15th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
I personally think we should ban all forms of clothing. Well, parkas would not be banned nor trousers I guess. But those skirt thing that some men wear in canada should be banned. Stupid looking and bank tellers cant tell if they are dealing with a man or a woman. It is also easier to conceal weapons in skirts.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Absolutely! It is your country and you don’t have to give in to others incorporating their religious views into your society.
March 26th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Yes they should! Everyone should dress in western clothing unless there is a family gathering inside their home. I was attacked by some moslem hijab teens 2 summers ago because I am a canadian woman and I was walking with a man who was not my husband! Why is their stupid culture being pushed on my canadian culture, the culture that gave them freedom to begin with. This is highly unfair.You have to agree with our western lifestyle in order to live in canada or dont bother coming here. ALso learn english before you come, Im sick of my tax dollars paying for you to learn english and I get on the bus and no one speaks english anymore!!!!!!!!
March 26th, 2012 at 7:46 pm
Ok.. then stop complaining about people having to observe a dress-code in other countries.
April 13th, 2012 at 9:50 pm
Ban the niqab is a must. Canada is a Christian nation. The Roman Catholic Church was the first institution of any kind established in the New World. Christianity does not bow down to Islam because Islam is not a religion. Its a twisted barbaric arabic cult that allows death to women and decapitation of limbs to those who commit petty crimes. Muslims are uncivilized. They are like cavemen that all of a sudden appear in the future. They cannot live in a Christian free modern world so why on earth should we allow them to ruin our nations? To let that happen would be very stupid. Muslims should convert to Christianity and then they can be seen as modern and civilized peoples or if not they should be brought back to where they came from. I predict if nothing is done then I fear another Holy Crusade will rise to protect Christianity and defeat the islamists.
April 13th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Canada is a Christian nation. Muslims should not be allowed into our country in the first place. Islam just wants jihad and conquer lands inhabited by Christians. The niqab is a symbol of ancient tribal arabic men who have imposed their will on their own people. Ban the niqab. The Roman Catholic Church was the first institution established in the New World. Roman Catholicism is subservient to no other group.
April 14th, 2012 at 12:39 am
GC Says: “Ban the niqab is a must. Canada is a Christian nation. The Roman Catholic Church was the first institution of any kind established in the New World”
@GC, you’re typical bigoted swine. I’m a Canadian living proudly in Canada my beloved home, and just so you know, make sure that I and others Canadians will never let any filthy bigots export to Canadian soil, the foreign Islamophobia sickness that has originated from the sick-mind of bigoted American neo-cons. You’re admiring the foreign hate? MOVE closer to said hate in THEIR country , and leave mine in peace with your poison. Canada is not, never has been, and will never be “a Christian nation”, or ” a Islamic nation” for that matter. Canada does NOT belong to you as “a Christian”, it does not belong to me as “a Muslim”, but belong to ALL Canadians who loves it, are willing to protect it from hate, uphold it’s values and principals of justice, freedom, peace and sovereignty, no-matter what are Canadians color, ethnicity or religious background. And we proud Canadian Muslims will never ever let a pitifull bigot like you define the belonging to our Canadian home, be sure we will be at every corner waiting to smash every bigoted attempt that tries to tell us otherwise and tries to destroy the Canadian harmony and liberty.
April 16th, 2012 at 9:48 pm
Alright, I’m vehemently against islamophobia, any other form of discrimination. But, let’s face it, the only people who put on these burkas are salafi extremist, who hate the societies they live in.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:35 pm
@Persian
That is kind of a blanket statement? How do you know that the only people who ware them are extremists? Even if it were true, it really wouldn’t be much of an argument for banning the Burka, the more I think about it.
April 18th, 2012 at 1:23 am
@criticaldragon. It was just an observation. I’m not sure what king of Muslim woman, other than a salafi/wahhabi/al-Qaida, where’s a burqa.
April 26th, 2012 at 6:28 am
Persian Says: “@criticaldragon. It was just an observation. I’m not sure what king of Muslim woman, other than a salafi/wahhabi/al-Qaida, where’s a burqa.”
@Persian, first, if you’re going to address the topic of Muslim veils, a little lesson in at least learning the different name of veils may be in order, otherwise it will just make you seem talking from ignorant position. So, the veil you see that the woman in the picture of this article is wearing, is referred to as Niqab and not “burqa”. Burqas being mostly of blue material, and are known to be worn mostly by Muslim women in Afghanistan, especially noticeable during the Taliban rule, but are also worn though this time in black material, by some women in certain regions of Pakistan . — Second, my very own older sister and my best friend since 6th grade have both decided by choice years ago, to wear the niqab like the one you see the woman in the picture wearing. — Third, since my very close relationship with the both of them, for one is my very own sister while the other is my best friend, I can assure you with utmost certainty, that neither of them are part of any “salafi/wahhabi[sic]/al-Qaida” whatever, but in fact both of them detesting those groups you mentioned for the same reasons most Muslims do. In fact, both my sister and best friend are quite very liberal women in most of their worldly outlook, even more so liberal in certain topics, than are some of women I know that neither wear the niqab nor even the simple hijab for that matter. — Fourth, although both of them chose to wear the niqab primarily for religious convictions, nevertheless both of them being Western Muslim women, the condition of how in general term the female body of the Western women are daily sexually exploited, whether young or old, white or black, through TV or films, through striptease and pornography enterprises and so on, have A-lot to do with their choice of wearing the niqab. Thus in doing such, making a political feminist statement, that the female body is NOT a sexual boy-toy for men to salivate like dogs over it. I find that to be quite powerful. I’ve always saw the Niqab as very powerful, especially in Western context, and the veil itself being a strong tool for women with sort of having invisible red STOP signs that indicates if dared a sharp-slap at those men that dare violate uninvited their space. Anyway, regardless of some ignorant comments they may face by the most ignorant Westerners, for certain one can only admire and respect those women that find the balls to wear it.
By the way, about your comment, quote – “salafi/wahhabi/al-Qaida” – although I find those that adhere to Salafism or Wahhabism to be very religiously ultra-conservative, at times bordering even on extremist side for their misinterpreting of religious Scriptures. Nonetheless, it is very unfair of you to put them in the same category as “al-Qaida”, which is by all mean an organisation that is engaged in terrorist activities. And although ‘Salafis’ and ‘Wahhabis’ may be religiously fundamentalists and painfully literalists, they’re not terrorists like “al-Qaida” members are. So it’s best to be fair and not brush them with the same brush.
May 13th, 2012 at 12:37 am
American Islam / Face Veil Ban
America against face vials we need to stop this from happening, it is not safe to were any type of mask in public places, I am not sorry, practice your religion in your homes and buildings of worship not in the streets this is a safety issue and every time we see this in a store we leave just in case they may be robbing the store or bank.
May 13th, 2012 at 12:38 am
Yes in canada and america
May 13th, 2012 at 4:29 am
If grammatical errors were to be banned as well, ol’ “joe”/”janice” would be in some trouble.
May 13th, 2012 at 4:35 am
And is it some new trend among the Anti-Islam bunch to not capitalise proper names, even if the name in question is one’s own?
May 14th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
This has become quite a hot topic. I became friends with people who practice Islam and I do not always agree with their methodology because half the time I see them contradicting themselves by doing something completely opposite to their belief. They turn around the next day, deny any events that took place, and then sight some words that their parents have consistently beaten into their bodies since they were young. Bottom line – they save face in the public eye at any cost.
I personally think that people will do exactly what they want at the end of the day, regardless of affiliation. Basically none of us can stop what is going to come to pass. I say on that front: EACH TO THEIR OWN. All will be decided on judgement day anyway, so we shouldn’t bother to spend time pointing fingers at each other.
As implied above, I pointed fingers in the past and it didn’t work – so I decided to take this approach – which is working out perfectly thus far.
I intend to finish off my education, open my practice, build my home out in the country-side and stay out there. I will help everyone that I can in passing, but for me – it’s about my family and my close friends.
Even if the face veils are banned in Canada, they will still be worn, protesters will still protest, and eventually .. there will be extreme demonstrations from both sides of the table until the issue expands itself even further. A hopeless paradox that will be infinitely reiterated until the end of time because hate does not bequest hate.
May 16th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Awesome, This will pull Europe out of Debt becuase they all wear it. Turn those Muslims into our Dhimmies.
May 16th, 2012 at 7:15 pm
What is there to DEBATE…PUT THEM OUT IF THEY DO NOT INTEGRATE!!!
They are in someone else`s land so you respect and integrate, if you don`t or can`t…guess your country must be much better so LEAVE and see if you are as loved back home… and try to shower sometimes rather than hinding under all that stuff.