Robert Spencer

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Bat Ye'or

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Debbie Schlussel

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Walid Shoebat

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The Nuclear Card

Does Jewish Law Justify Killing Civilians?

Posted on 04 October 2011 by Danios

This article is part 10 of LoonWatch’s Understanding Jihad Series. Please read my “disclaimer”, which explains my intentions behind writing this article: The Understanding Jihad Series: Is Islam More Likely Than Other Religions to Encourage Violence?

Islamophobes like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller claim that Islam is more violent than other religions, particularly Judaism and Christianity.  To prove this, they argue that the Islamic holy book, the Islamic prophet, and the Islamic God are all uniquely violent–certainly more so than their Judeo-Christian counterparts.

We proved these claims completely bunk by showing the Bible to be far more violent than the Quran, the Biblical prophets to be far more violent than the Prophet Muhammad, and Yahweh of the Bible to be far more violent than Allah of the Quran.  (See parts 123456-i, 6-ii, 6-iii, 6-iv78, 9-i, and 9-ii of LoonWatch’s Understanding Jihad Series.)

Instead of defending their initial claim (which they simply cannot), the Islamophobes quickly shift gears and rely on a fallback argument: they argue that “the Bible doesn’t actively exhort its believers to commit acts of violence, unlike the Quran.”  I refuted this argument in part 6 (see 6-i6-ii6-iii6-iv) in an article entitled The Bible’s Prescriptive, Open-Ended, and Universal Commandments to Wage Holy War and Enslave Infidels.

Once that argument goes to the wayside the Islamophobes then jump to their next fall back argument: “most Jews and Christians don’t take the Bible literally like Muslims do the Quran!”  I refuted this argument in part 7, showing that they do in fact understand the Bible very, very literally.

In a very predictable pattern, once this argument fails, the Islamophobes rely on yet another fall back argument, the famous cop-out “But That’s Just the Old Testament!”.  I’ve refuted this argument in part 8.

Once this fall back argument is refuted, Islamophobes once again do not defend it.  Instead, they move on to the next fall back argument:  they argue that “Jews and Christians simply don’t interpret their holy book in a violent manner, unlike Muslims.”  Writes Robert Spencer on p.31 of his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades):

When modern-day Jews and Christians read their Bibles, they simply don’t interpret the passages cited as exhorting them to violent action against unbelievers. This is due to the influence of centuries of interpretive traditions that have moved away from literalism regarding these passages. But in Islam, there is no comparable interpretive tradition. The jihad passages in the Qur’an are anything but a dead letter.

This is Spencer’s preemptive parry to any counterattack whenever anyone (like myself) responds to his cherry-picking of Quranic verses by reciprocating and finding similar (and even worse) passages in the Bible. We are told that modern-day Jews and Christians simply don’t take those passages seriously any more, that they are merely symbolic or that they are dead letters.

Spencer et al. will then take a break from copying-and-pasting Quranic passages, and instead focus on “classical opinions” in the Islamic tradition, which they claim continue to be to this day the “orthodox, mainstream opinions according to the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence [madhaib].” By contrast, argues Spencer, classical and modern-day orthodox, mainstream interpretations of Judaism and Christianity have moved away from literal understandings of the Bible and opted for non-violent, peaceful understandings.

However, I will prove that this is not the case at all. The violent verses in the Bible helped formulate the “classical opinions” of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and continue to be held by “mainstream, orthodox” groups today.  In this article, we will examine the Jewish rabbinical tradition (both the “classical” and modern day situation); in a later article, we will grapple with the Christian side of things.

Rabbi Eliyahu Stern published an article in the New York Times entitled “Don’t Fear Islamic Law in America.”  Stern’s balanced article noted that the anti-Muslim demonization of Islam (and Islamic law) “is disturbingly reminiscent” of “19th-century Europe” Anti-Semitism.  Pamela Geller, an extremist Zionist Islamophobe, published an irate letter from David Yerushalmi (who she describes as the “leading legal mind on sharia in America and my lawfare attorney”), who huffed (emphasis added):

[T]he historical comparison between the response to sharia in this country and Europe’s objection to Jewish law centuries earlier is a result of poor scholarship and faulty logic.  Jewish law, certainly since the destruction of the Jewish Commonwealth almost two thousand years ago, has had nothing to do with political power or the desire to effect dominion over another people. 

To the contrary, the opposition to sharia is the fact that throughout the Muslim world, sharia is the call to an exclusive Islamic political power with hegemonic designs (see the two most prominent surveys cited here: http://mappingsharia.com/?page_id=425).  The war doctrine of jihad is part and parcel of sharia.  It is alive and well as such throughout the Muslim world.

This is the same argument raised by Robert Spencer: Jewish law is peaceful and certainly does not call to violence or war like Islamic law does.

I will absolutely nuke this argument into oblivion.  (In the words of one of our readers: “Danios doesn’t make the mistake of bringing a knife to a gun fight–he brings a nuclear bomb.”)

*  *  *  *  *

One of the fundamental differences between the Islamic canon (Quran and hadiths) and the Bible is with regard to discrimination: the Islamic texts explicitly, categorically, and emphatically command soldiers to fight combatants on the battlefield only, and totally forbid targeting and killing innocent civilians (women, children, the elderly, the decrepit, etc.). On the other hand, the Bible is replete with verses in which God Himself commands the believers to target and kill innocent civilians. In fact, the God of the Bible becomes very upset with those of his followers who fail to complete acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

It is perhaps no big surprise then that one of the main ways in which the “classical” and so-called “orthodox, mainstream views” of the Islamic tradition differ from those in the Jewish tradition is with regard to discrimination: the Islamic tradition forbids its followers from targeting and killing civilians, whereas the Jewish counterpart permits it.

Rabbi Norman Lamm, convenor of the Orthodox Forum

Every year leading Orthodox Jewish luminaries from around the world–including “rashei yeshivah [deans of Talmudical academies], rabbis, educators and academicians from America and Israel”–flock to The Orthodox Forum to discuss “a single topic affecting the Jewish world.”  In 2004, the topic of choice was “War and Peace,” which was chosen due to “the United States’ involvement in Iraq” and “Israel’s ongoing war with terrorism” (quotes from p.xiii of War and Peace in the Jewish Tradition).

After these influential experts discussed the issues surrounding “war and peace,” they published their discussion in the fourteenth volume of “the Orthodox Forum Series” in a book entitled War and Peace in the Jewish Tradition.  As such, this book does not merely reflect the views of one or two Jewish authors.  Instead, it “brings together the thinking of a wide range of distinguished American and Israeli academicians and religious leaders from various disciplines, to shed light on the historical, philosophical, theological, legal and moral issues raised by military conflict and the search for peaceful resolution” (p.xi) with the goal of appreciating “the relevance of Jewish sources in approaching contemporary challenges” (p.xii).

[Note: Throughout this article series, readers should assume all emphasis is mine, unless otherwise indicated.  Also note that Rabbi is abbreviated to R., as is the accepted convention.]

Reading this very authoritative book, written by the brightest minds of Orthodox Judaism, I came to appreciate at least five major ways in which Halakha (Jewish law) permits shedding the blood of innocents–at least five major exceptions to the law of discrimination.

The reader should keep in mind that these five different exceptions have nothing to do with “collateral damage,” the incidental or unintended killing of civilians, which is generally accepted by international law (with some important caveats).  Instead, these five exceptions have to do with targeting and killing civilians.

I purposefully say “at least five different exceptions,” since there are most certainly more, which I shall discuss in future articles.  However, those other exceptions are debatable or held as minority opinions, such as the concept of targeted assassinations (debatable, I guess) and the idea that Palestinians should be exterminated because they are the modern-day Amalekites (a valid but minority “halakhic opinion”).  Instead, I will focus on views held by the majority of mainstream Orthodox Jewish rabbinical leadership.

*  *  *  *  *

In the United States, Judaism is split into three main sects: Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox.  In Israel, however, Reform and Conservative Judaism do not exist in large numbers.  Instead, the battle lines are drawn between secular and Orthodox Jews.  According to The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, 20% of Israeli Jews are secular, 25% are Orthodox (17% are Religious Zionists [Modern Orthodox Judaism] and 8% are Ultra-Orthodox [Haredi]), with the largest group of Israeli Jews (55%) falling under the rubric of “traditional.”

The views of “traditional Jews” towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seem to fall in between the two major ideological groups: secular and Orthodox Jews.  For example, whereas “only” 36% of secular Israelis support “price tag” terrorism against Palestinians and a whopping majority of Orthodox Jews support such tactics (70% of Religious Zionists and 71% of Ultra-Orthodox Jews), just over half of traditional Jews (55%) condone terrorism against the Palestinians.

Orthodox Judaism is split between Modern Orthodox Judaism and Ultra-Orthodox Judaism (Haredi Judaism).  In Israel, Modern Orthodox Judaism is dominated by Religious Zionism (alternatively called “national-religious”).  This sect is widely considered to be the “mainstream” of Orthodox Judaism in Israel.  It is this sect, therefore, that I will focus on in my article series.

One should not, however, be led to believe that Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is much better in this regard.  Although Agudat Yisrael (the original major political party that represented Ultra-Orthodox Jews) initially opposed the Zionist enterprise, this changed after the creation of the state of Israel.  These Ultra-Orthodox Jews saw the Israeli state as a means for “state enforcement of religious laws” and wanted “increased state financial support for their schools and for religious institutions” (quotes taken from the Zionism & Israel Center‘s official website).

Today, “though still non-Zionist, [these Ultra-Orthodox Jews] tend to favor perpetuation of the occupation and vote with the right against peace moves or negotiations.”  Their right-wing attitudes towards Palestinians are reflected in the earlier statistic I cited, which showed that an overwhelming majority (71%) of Ultra-Orthodox Jews support price tag terrorism against Palestinians, which is almost exactly the same percentage of Religious Zionists (70%) who do.  Ultra-Orthodox Judaism in Israel has been heavily influenced by Zionism and Religious Zionism, especially in their hostile views towards the indigenous Palestinians.

However, because many Israelis feel that Ultra-Orthodox Jews are “extreme,” I will focus my discussion here on the more “mainstream” sect, Modern Orthodox Judaism.  (In a follow-up article, I will outline the Ultra-Orthodox view on such subjects in order to prove that there is an emerging “bipartisan” consensus on these issues within Orthodox Judaism in Israel.) For now, however, I will largely stick to the generally accepted views within Religious Zionism.

Therefore, in my article The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justifies Killing Civilians–the title that will be used for the remaining article series–I will not focus on Yizhak Shapira’s book the King’s Torah.  Despite the fact that Modern Orthodox Judaism’s rabbis seemed to accept Shapira’s views “governing the killing of a non-Jew’ outlined in the book [as] a legitimate stance” and a valid “halachic opinion,” I will bypass all such discussion by focusing on majority views held by Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodox Judaism, not the more extreme Kahanist sect of Religious Zionism.

In so doing, I will show that these majority views are hardly less worrisome than Rabbi Shapira’s opinions expressed in the King’s Torah.  I will show that one need not look to settler rabbis, Kahanists, or Ultra-Orthodox Jews to find extremely warlike views.  The mainstream Modern Orthodox rabbinical leadership will suffice.  Worse yet, Israeli Jews–deeply religious Jews–are leading the fight against the concept of distinction, the fundamental aspect of the just war theory.  They are applying pressure to change international law and to abrogate the regulations of the Geneva Conventions, which they believe are “archaic” and inapplicable today.  Could it be said, using the emotive language of our opponents, that Judaism is waging war against the principle of distinction?

The purpose of this is to prove that if there are problems within the house of Islam (which there certainly are), let it be known that the house of Judaism is no different in this regard.  It would behoove us to remind ourselves of this before we point the accusatory finger at The Other.  Extremist Zionist Islamophobes like Pamela Geller–and their Christian comrades-in-arms like Robert Spencer–should take note.

Disclaimer:  Before we get into it, please read my disclaimer, Why Religious Zionism, Not Judaism, is the Problem. (This is in addition to my earlier disclaimer, which you should also read):

Update:  

The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justifies Killing Civilians;#1 Civilians Are Really Combatants

#2 Collective Punishment is Kosher (I)

#2 Collective Punishment is Kosher (II)

#2 Collective Punishment is Kosher (III)

#2 Collective Punishment is Kosher (IV)

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  • Pingback: Does Jewish Law Justify Killing Civilians? « Anti Islam: FAQ – 99

  • Géji

    Susanna Says: >”Enlighten me on christian atrocities in the 1st century up to the 7th”

    LOOL.. What happened to: – “Can you document the murder and genocide associated with christianity?”

    I see you really are making huge progress Susanna, in fact about 1400yrs worth of progress. So BRAVO to you!!

    As for the rest, read what Jack Cope Says on: October 11th, 2011 at 10:31 am, in order for your progress to be completed. In the mean-time, Ciao!!

  • http://www.bandofstrangers.org Jack Cope

    I feel your pain Sir David. If you get Firefox then it has a spell check built in, has saved me a lot of embarrassment but also lead to some pretty funny errors as well ;-D

  • Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony

    I indended to say ” such faith is a great comfort ” comport makes no sence Thats what dyslexia and a french keyboard does for you ;-)

  • Danios

    What’s spelled incorrectly?

  • Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony

    any chance loonwatch getting a spell check ?

  • http://www.bandofstrangers.org Jack Cope

    Susanna, I agree, but again you never pass on this courtesy to Muslims or Islam. It’s double standards at the least. I’d also add that any of Muhammad’s campaigns were defensive in nature and that, really, there is no trace of ‘spreading by the sword’. Because, as we both agree, forced conversion is worthless, the Qu’ran states so.

  • Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony

    Susanna you said
    “True conversion to new life in Christ, is a matter of the heart, faith born of belief, the confessing it out of the mouth. Forced conversion was always wrong, still is because only God knows the heart of man.”

    True conversion to any faith is a matter of heart born of belief . Why do you think it is just a christian thing to feel that way ?

    The Quran I am told is quite clear on this firstly only god knows the heart of man and secondly and may be as a consequence there can be no compulsion in religion.
    Such faith I can see as a great comport to many people , not that I have it myself but I respect it in others.

  • Susanna

    @ Jack

    While you are correct in your comment about Theodosius, Christians were persecuted from the beginning of the church in 1st century. While predominately Jewish, the church suffered at the hands of the Jewish religious leaders. In its beginnings, Christians did not force by physical means any conversion. In fact, they were pacifists.

    While one would condemn any killing, Theodosius sought to stamp out paganism, much like Mohammad did when Islam was first conceived and propagated in the 7th century.

    True conversion to new life in Christ, is a matter of the heart, faith born of belief, the confessing it out of the mouth. Forced conversion was always wrong, still is because only God knows the heart of man.

  • http://www.bandofstrangers.org Jack Cope

    Susanna, since you asked, in 380 that the Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in place of paganism. After this, the newly ‘Christianized’ Romans proceeded to slaughter large amounts of pagans both at home and abroad.

    Oh and yes, of course the Romans also used to persecute Christians as well but it was hardly like the films portray with lions and stuff. Anyway, they’d pretty much stopped doing this well before the 3C AD. Just one example out from many, do you need more? The defense ‘it’s OK becuase it didn’t happen between 1C and 7C’ AD isn’t really solid.

    Interesting how you haven’t yet replied to a single point put to you yet clearly read the thread by the way. Shall we take it as you can’t answer?

  • Pingback: Does Jewish Law Justify Killing Civilians? | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper

  • Susanna

    @ Geji:

    Enlighten me on christian atrocities in the 1st century up to the 7th.

  • Pingback: The Top Five Ways Jewish Law Justifies Killing Civilians; #3: Promoting Ethnic Cleansing (II) « Middle East atemporal

  • Géji

    “LOL? I asked the question first. You give me examples of this in christianity”

    Susanna, you obviously missed Danios sarcasm behind his “lol” – as he was laughing(out loud) at your ridiculous question.

    Of course there is plenty( too many to count) ‘examples’ of murder and genocides associated with Christianity. And feigning ignorance about christian atrocities for the past 2000yrs wont make history disappear.

  • Pingback: Why Religious Zionism, Not Judaism, Is The Problem | Spencer Watch

  • Garo

    Jack Cope,

    Whenever you feel that you need assistance in the Arabic language,please feel free to contact me at the following E-mail address:

    sodiumblogger@gmail.com

    Although I am short in time,I will do my best to help you as much as I possibly can.

    Cheers…..

  • http://www.bandofstrangers.org Jack Cope

    Again thank you all and to those who sent me emails (my mail client is messed up right now so I’ll reply to you later). I will seriously consider re-starting my blog if you’ll indulge me and give me ideas of stuff to write about! Anyway, specifics:

    Garo: Thank you, I enjoy reading your posts as well. If I recall you have a good grasp of Arabic and understanding of it’s formation, I seem to remember that from an earlier post. Maybe you can help in my wafflings to Just Stopping By as I’m sinking fast…

    Sir David: I’ve tired of the whole Hitler thing and wrote some lengthy essays on it; my posts up there are barely scratching the surface. And indeed, many millions served with the allies, many in the land armies but in fact a forgotten number are the poor souls of the various Merchant Navies who, in their unarmed boats, braved the high seas and constant U-boat attacks to keep the Allies supplied. Many were Muslims from Asia as they had been for centuries, it’s why the early Muslim communities in Europe, the UK especially, were around the big ports.

    Asian Muslims were much prided for their sailing ability and had traveled far; a story for you. Some Imams and other Muslims went to visit an Australian Aboriginal settlement some years ago. They stopped to pray during the day and of course, one of the Imam’s gave the call to prayer. A little latter a very old Aboriginal woman came up to the Imam and said that she ‘knew that song he had been singing’ because her Grandmother used to sing it. Why? Turns out this tribe had been visited by Muslim sailors generations ago, probably Malays who were harvesting sea cucumber but it’s said that Chinese Muslims left their mark as well the fact that Arabs were plying the seas in that area. The tribe had, in their oral tradition, memorized the ‘song’ that the Muslims used to ‘sing’ before praying. Yes, Muslims discovered Australia folks ;-) I like that story anyway, just wanted to share it.

    Just Stopping By: I understand your aversion to using the word and as I said I don’t like using it too. However the original meaning is not applied to people of other faiths, for example Jews and Christians are as ahl kitab (People of the Book), rather it’s to the ‘perpetrators’ of the acts of covering and again, Muslims can be just as guilty. I think the word has just been massively confused and messed up by Muslims and non-Muslims in recent times and I never use it by itself. Not sure I’m explaining it so well here either…

    Now, I find your last bit of the post very interesting and I will look into it, sadly my grasp of linguistics, especially in Arabic and Hebrew, is far below your own. However, my explanation to this would be that maybe since Hebrew was a written language long before what we know as ‘Arabic’ ever was is the root. Before the Qu’ran was written down written Arabic had a lot of missing vowels and letters as it had always been an oral tradition, the early Arabs left us very little writing. The need to actually write the Qu’ran down meant that they needed a set of letters etc and I believe that that is where Hebrew and Arabic really started to diverge. So while the ‘pre Qu’ran’ Arabic alphabet may have had been basically a ‘Hebrew lite’ or at least taken a lot of the Hebrew letters for convenience or due to the fact that they really never used writing so just borrowed whatever was closes. However when people sat down to develop the alphabet so they could write the Qu’ran out they went their own way and made what they had far more complex, into a proper written language. It would explain why the greeting salaam/shalom is there (as obviously greetings come very early in language development and is traded between people regularly) but more ‘technical’ or ‘complex’ words don’t pair up.

    That’s what I see in my mind anyway and I’ve just read what I wrote and actually it doesn’t make any sense to me… like pre-Qu’ran Arabic I’m missing a lot of things! I’d like to read your views so I can lean from it.

  • Danios

    @ Webdawah:

    Thank you.

  • Talisman

    @Jack Cope

    “That should have all been made into a blog post rather than boring people here don’t you think.”

    Nope, you are never boring to me. I am looking forward to reading your upcoming blog. Comments AND blogs…I think people like all of your stuff. :)

  • http://webdawah.blogspot.com/ Webdawah

    People need to lose the mentality of jumping to conclusions right after seeing the title of an article. I don’t see why anyone is up in arms after the explanation given for the series. Are you a Geller or Spencer minion? Why do you care that someone is trying to refute their arguments by showing that they are either biased, or not as learned as they claim?

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