We don’t not support censorship unlike the hypocrites in the Islamophobesphere who for instance advocate bans on the Qur’an. However, when you cross the line into open calls for genocide and violence against another group of people you have entered very murky water. WordPress for instance has guidelines against such things and that is the reason the genocidal hate site BareNakedIslam was pulled down, they violated WordPress’ guidelines. Now they are crying victim and martyrdom for Free Speech, something they want to strip away from Muslims. Expect Robert Spencer to come to their aid once again.
WordPress Removes Hate Blog
by Yusuf Khan, Islamic Examiner
A hate site hosted on WordPress.com has been pulled down by the popular blog host, reported CAIR yesterday.
The vicious blog had hitherto featured a number of violent threats against mosques and Muslim American citizens, including the words “I want (Muslim) blood on my hands!”
WordPress took notice that the Islamophobic site violated a number of its stipulated terms of service, including blogs that “contain threats or incite violence towards indiviudals or entities” and took appropriate action.
Last year, a similar blog was taken down by WordPress that shamelessly advocated burning mosques, calling in fake bomb threats implicating Muslims, desecrating Muslim cemeteries, and recommending “the proper way to shoot a Muslim.”
December 30th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
CAIR just hates free speech. They are the real hate group.
December 30th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
HAHAHAHA
good bye good riddance
December 30th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
It doesn’t really matter. The writers for BareNakedIslam will simply get a job writing for David Horowitz’s Frontpage Magazine like Ann Coulter did after she said the U.S. should force Iraqis to accept Christianity.
December 30th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Amago,
Well that’s one less place spewing anti Muslim Venom. Off course, this won’t make anti Muslim bigotry go away. They’ll probably just start another site with another web host.
December 30th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Is this a new years gift?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
Karma can be a B**h
December 30th, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Hahahahahaha!! Just in time for Christmas! Merry Christmas you filthy nazi pigs! For the new year I hope every other damn webhost denies you scum.
December 30th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
Their comments sound like something that might have been said before the srebrenica massacre.
Now that there is one less Islamophobic hate source, let this serve as a reminder to us that others still exist.
We will not stop in our actions until this social disease (Islamophobia) is either completely wiped out or driven underground.
Quote: “I want (Muslim) blood on my hands!”
What a sick, depraved group of people they are. And that goes for all Islamophobes.
December 30th, 2011 at 3:40 pm
It’s about time. How long will it be until Atlasshrug, Jihadwatch, Gates of Vienna, Creeping Sharia, Winds of Jihad etc. is taken down?
December 30th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Mark Twain,
I don’t think we’ll ever get rid of Islamophobia in our lifetimes. Bigotry is not something that’s easy to get rid of. Even antisemitism is still around today, but its much more socially acceptable to be an anti Muslim bigot, than it is to be an anti Jewish bigot. We need to change that.
December 30th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
What I’m saying is that we need to get to point were anti Muslim bigotry is completely out of the mainstream, but even than it won’t be a good idea to stop fighting it.
December 30th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@BNI:
Umadbro?
December 30th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
This is not censorship in my opinion.
This is a private entity who has determined that this website has violated it’s regulations, and they took it down.
December 30th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
its hard to believe that such hateful people exist in so called progressed societies.
December 30th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
It’s still there. Quick google search shows the site just fine.
December 30th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Ignore my previous post. It seems like it will be down January the 6th specifically. The owner of the site still thinks CAIR are responsible lmao!
December 30th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Indeed World Press did the right thing. And before any of these BNI supporters come here to spew their bullshit about how in Loonwatch we want to silence their freedom of speech, just know this you Nazi cowards.
When your site supports the death of all Muslims, and spread lies that they are pure evil this isn’t freedom of speech, that’s hate speech and you you support violence on them.
I have went to their cult site before and many members there love it when a Muslim dies. And I’m not talking about bad ones like Terrorists but the innocent ones. And supporting a Genocide only makes you look like savage beasts so if that is what you call freedom of speech then go burn in hell then.
December 30th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Well done WP!
December 30th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
I was surprised that the writer of BNI was a woman. Maybe it’s a bit sexist of my part, but I tend to assume that men are more likely to spew such kind of vile rhetoric.
December 30th, 2011 at 8:32 pm
The filth that gets spouted in the CNN comment columns is a thousand times worse. I won’t go there without a raincoat.
December 30th, 2011 at 9:52 pm
@Nur Alia,
I don’t think its censorship either. Its a private company, not the government, that’s shutting them down, and they did it because they violated one of the rules that they had agreed to follow if they hosted their webpage.
December 30th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
Another site that WordPress needs to take down is “The Mad Jewess”. That’s worst than BNI.
December 30th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Bare Naked Islam is back……sort of
Posted: December 30, 2011 | Author: barenakedislam | Filed under: Say WHAT? | 333 Comments »
WordPress now saying that CAIR had nothing to do with their decision to take down my blog (despite CAIR bragging about it all over the internet). But they still want me off by Jan. 6th
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/
Fans harassed WP and sent email to support@wordpress.com, though I’m not sure if that’s why it’s back up.
December 30th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
Sorry I meant WordPress not WorldPress.
December 31st, 2011 at 12:23 am
but the sitre is still up?
December 31st, 2011 at 1:37 am
I found this on BNI’s comment section:
“barenakedislam
December 31, 2011 at 2:35 AM
lucha, we’ll up and running as usual soon on a new site. Check back for updates here or TWITTER: baremakedislam or Email”
Here we go again O.O
December 31st, 2011 at 2:07 am
Maybe the Islamic clerics and Islamic leadership need to a bit of introspection before screaming islamophobia. I am a liberal. Out of the 57 odd muslim majority countries, only 2 have secular constitutions. Most of these countries have criminal laws against apostasy (act of leaving islam) and blasphemy (act of criticizing islam). Anti-Islamic sentiment (or what you call islamophobia) will unfortunately be there until apostasy and blasphemy remain an issue with Islam. This world is increasingly interconnected. American muslims can not be immune to what happens in Islamic countries and the religious apartheid which is practiced there. Unfortuntately, they will take the hit for the mainstream Islamic theology which is not very pretty. I am just explaining my point of view. People are not idiots to feel threatened by Islam for no reason. Just ask the ex-muslims.
December 31st, 2011 at 5:31 am
Typepad is supposed to be freer than Google Blogger or WordPress, that’s probably why Geller hosts there.
Closing down BNI is NOT contrary to freedom of speech. Jihadi websites that call for indiscriimate deaths are routinely closed down. I’m not against this either, as Islam doesn’t sanction the bloodshed of innocents. Even in war, there are rules to obey which these so called Jihadis distort to suit their agenda.
Thus if they can be closed down, certainly sites like Bare Naked Islam should be shut down. I am puzzled as to why Blogger still lets Gates of Vienna stay up.
December 31st, 2011 at 5:36 am
CriticalDragon77,
This post is not an attack on you, so don’t misunderstand..
I don’t think its censorship either. Its a private company, not the government, that’s shutting them down, and they did it because they violated one of the rules that they had agreed to follow if they hosted their webpage.
I don’t why all this pandering to ‘free speech’.
Where was Anwar Al Awlakis rights to free speech? How did he differ from what Bare Naked Islam were doing?
Why can the US government murder Awlaki, but not close down genocidal sites like BNI?
This wouldn’t be permitted in most countries in the world, I do believe in responsible censorship, otherwise if you support total free speech then bad kiddie porn on prime time TV for those who want to put it up but cannot, it’s one of the most hypocritical aspects of the US systmem
Free speech doesn’t exist.
December 31st, 2011 at 6:20 am
lets hope ALL these websites are shut down permanently
December 31st, 2011 at 9:24 am
The site is back up for now….
December 31st, 2011 at 9:58 am
No worries mate, this blog will be back before you know. And the blog will be a thousand times more popular then it ever was. Thanks to you, christianophobes.
December 31st, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Harby, don’t worry the old nazis didn’t think they’d be stopped. If being hateful helps you deal with the fact that your new nazi party can’t win that’s alright too. @rocky retard: are you actually CRYING? LOL!!
December 31st, 2011 at 1:00 pm
kafir
oh yes because bni are the perfect examples of christian love especially the guy who thinks that shooting a muslim in the head while he is eating ice cream is justifiable self defense.
December 31st, 2011 at 1:14 pm
“Christianophobes”?? LOL Kafir, you Islamophobes really need to be more original. We’re not worried. All hate blogs will eventually be taken out and you haters will eventually learn the truth.
December 31st, 2011 at 1:21 pm
@Inspired by Mohammad,
Really? You don’t understand why people care so much about free speech? Anyone who values freedom has very good reason to be worried about free speech being infringed by the state. The First Amendment is part of the US constitution for a very good reason. What’s to stop what you refer to as “responsible censorship” from turning into “irresponsible censorship?” Freedom of Speech is meant to apply to all speech regardless of how offensive it is, and its worthless unless it applies to unpopular speech, even hate speech is protected by the constitution for good reason. Also did the Dutch taking Wilders to court for Fitna do anything to fight anti Muslim bigotry? Think about that for a moment. If anything they actually made things worse by violating his free speech rights. They sent his supporters a message that the only way they could fight him and what he was saying was to prosecute him for it. It didn’t do anything to make me reject the bigoted feelings I had towards Muslims at the time. It only made me more convinced, which made it take longer for me to see the light. What’s more, Wilders and his supporters were able to portray themselves as champions of free speech in that instance, regardless of weather they actually were or not. We would have been better off if more people had worked harder to refute his bigoted nonsense by thoroughly debunking him instead. The best way to fight speech, including hate speech is with more speech. Debunking hate mongers is far more effective.
Also, regardless of weather or not the government was justified in killing Awlaki, that doesn’t have any effect on my arguments. We were at war with Al Queda at the time. Even so, there are some people who oppose the government killing him, and also oppose the government censoring hate sites like Bare Naked Islam. Ironically that website was actually one of the things that lead me to change my mind since it was so bad. They unintentionally lead me to question some of the negative views about Islam and Muslims in general that I used to have.
December 31st, 2011 at 1:23 pm
@ Kafir Harby
So we’re christianophobes if we go against hate sites that promote violence against Muslims?
@ asdf
Uh no you’re wrong. Malaysia is a Sharia country that doesn’t penalize those who leave islam. Actually MOST Muslim countries don’t either. And you’re wrong by saying only two Muslim countries are secular, I’d say the GREAT MAJORITY of Muslim countries make religion have no say in politics.
December 31st, 2011 at 1:26 pm
@asdf
Maybe the Islamic clerics and Islamic leadership need to a bit of introspection before screaming islamophobia.
Many in the Islamic leadership have been introspective and have called for peace and reconciliation. You are not going to read about them on Bare Naked Islam, but we can point you in the right direction if you want to learn more.
As for Islamophobia, here are comments from from visitors at BNI:
“Muslims have an all-or-nothing, openly declaring they’ll destroy us if we don’t destroy them. That’s why, if you see a Muslim licking an ice cream cone in the park and you blow his head off you are technically committing an act of self defense.”
“I am calling for a worldwide crusade against Islam … I want their blood on my hands as a matter of principle.”
If this is not an expression of Islamophobia, then it’s hard to imagine what might qualify. The worst extremist Muslims say similar things. Why would you endorse their mirror image?
I am a liberal.
Then you should embrace liberal Muslims who want to join forces with you.
Out of the 57 odd muslim majority countries, only 2 have secular constitutions.
Do you think becoming hateful and intolerant on our side will somehow spur positive constitutional reform on their side?
Most of these countries have criminal laws against apostasy (act of leaving islam) and blasphemy (act of criticizing islam).
“Most” is an exaggeration, but wherever there are such laws, we should encourage reform. That is certainly possible.
It is true that Islam has some punishments that are harsh by modern standards, but the Bible says if anyone tries to seduce you from the Christian God, you should, “…pelt him with stones until he dies.” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Most Christians and Muslims don’t employ harsh punishments based on scripture. The few Muslims who do will not be encouraged to stop by ferocious hatred from the West.
Anti-Islamic sentiment (or what you call islamophobia) will unfortunately be there until apostasy and blasphemy remain an issue with Islam.
Anti-Islamic sentiment and Islamphobia are counterproductive. It is possible to be critical of some Muslims without being “anti-Islamic” in the same way it is possible to be critical of some Christians without being “anti-Christian.”
If you have a legitimate criticism, why not discuss it with Muslims? How does vilifying Islam on hate sites promote positive change?
This world is increasingly interconnected. American muslims cannot be immune to what happens in Islamic countries and the religious apartheid which is practiced there.
Innocent Christians and Muslims should not be punished for the crimes of others just because they share the same faith. Collective punishment is wrong, no matter who does it.
As a self-proclaimed liberal, I think you would be speaking out vigorously against the punishment of innocent religious minorities, not making statements that can be interpreted as a justification for such behavior.
Unfortuntately, they will take the hit for the mainstream Islamic theology which is not very pretty. I am just explaining my point of view.
You are apparently not reading about mainstream Islam. Instead of pouring through the Qur’an looking for reasons to hate Muslims, shouldn’t we encourage Muslims to follow the most peaceful path offered by Islam?
I am reading a book right now entitled, “Islamic Pacifism,” which I highly recommend. It will broaden your perspective.
People are not idiots to feel threatened by Islam for no reason.
Of course people aren’t idiots, but many people in the West do have a myopic view of Islam that promotes misunderstanding.
Hate sites like BNI actively promote fear and hatred by emphasizing only the worst, most extreme examples of Muslims. Their promotion of mutual hatred only aggravates the problem. Saying to Muslims, “We hate you not matter what you do” is not helpful.
If Muslims try to reach out in friendship, shouldn’t you embrace that?
Just ask the ex-muslims.
Many of the most prominent “ex-Muslims” have been exposed as frauds. Others are capitalizing on the current climate, gaining notoriety at the expense of Muslims.
There are ex-Christians with a very bad attitude about Christianity. Should we put them before the public whenever possible to “prove” Christianity is an ugly religion? To what end?
All of the statements you made seem to be based on the notion you need to respond to hatred and intolerance by descending into hatred and intolerance. This is a curious approach for someone claiming to be a liberal.
In the book I mentioned (Islamic Pacifism by Arsalan Iftikhar), I just finished reading a quote from the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) encouraging us not to succumb to political rage:
“You are neither hard-hearted nor of fierce character, nor one who shouts in the markets. You do not return evil for evil, but excuse and forgive…”
Why don’t you join us and fight against bigotry, hatred, and extremism on both sides?
Love is better than hate, asdf. Take care and have a Happy New Year.
December 31st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
@IIlisha,
You wrote: but “wherever there are such laws, we should encourage reform. That is certainly possible.”
You don’t encourage reform by telling dissenters to keep silent and label them as bigots as you and Danios did with me. You claimed that I should not tell Muslims what to do a long time ago and they do not need my tutelage, well obviously they do because whatever the Muslim world is doing, it is not working.
You also said that I claimed that the Muslim world was backwards and rebuked me for it. No I didn’t. I claimed two things first that the Muslim world is currently benighted and second that Western values are superior. Now benighted means being in a state of moral or intellectual darkness and it is an appropriate term for the Muslim world.
Intellectually the Muslim world is far behind than the West or even Asian societies. Just look at their economies. The vast majority are in poverty. The oil rich states are economically developed but produce nothing besides oil and import the latest science and technology from the rest of the world. The Muslim world seldom makes scientific discoveries and more books are translated by Spain and Greece than the entire Middle East combined. In fact more than the golden age of Islam. That says something about the benighted state. Take a look for yourself.
the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year
http://www.altalang.com/beyond-words/2009/08/10/a-note-on-arabic-literacy-and-translation/
You then claim you want people to stand beside you and help you. No you don’t, because how can you when you are in denial?
December 31st, 2011 at 4:14 pm
CriticalDragon
You misunderstood my post, and the message i was conveying. i don’t oppose free speech, i’m just saying it doesn’t exist. Anywhere. It’s censored, even when it claims to be free as in the USA, it most certainly is not.
Wilders is in Europe, which doesn’t have the first amendment thus leave Europe out of this. It’s irrelevant.
I was talking about America, and the so called right to free speech, as you proudly pointed out. OK, I get your points. Here is the hypocricy in this ‘first amendment’ thing:
What’s to stop what you refer to as “responsible censorship” from turning into “irresponsible censorship?” Freedom of Speech is meant to apply to all speech regardless of how offensive it is, and its worthless unless it applies to unpopular speech, even hate speech is protected by the constitution for good reason
1. Can I publish a book in print and e-book form for internet distribution, on how to comit incest, and to groom children for kiddie porn and how to make and distribute it, and host the site in all 51 or so states in the USA?
2. Can i fund and open a TV station and broadcast hard core and kiddie porn on prime time TV? and how to kill people? how to make bombs? instruct people how they can steal, how to avoid taxes, how to comit corporate crime?
3. Can the likes of Anwar al Awlaki or even Bare Naked Islam host their own servers and call for the deaths of civilians and politicians inside the USA and use the first amendment against anyone who tries to shut them up?
4. Why was a man arrested in the USA (actually several) for threatening to assasinate Obama? Where were his rights to free speech?
December 31st, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Ex-muslims like Tariq Ali hate books by Irshad Manji, which is NOTHING like bare naked islam.
Ex-muslims like Council of ex-muslims U.K. youtube channel despises men like Pat Condell, Walid Shoebat etc etc.
Or that guy named Hasan in the youtube ex-muslim community also hates websites like Jihad Watch and other sites like that. Much less bare naked islam.
December 31st, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Kafir Harby
First of all, you’re to much of a moron to be deserving of the state of “Kufur”. So sorry to bust your uneducated bubble, but as your posts shows, you’re more of a ignorante than a concealer, which means you’re not smart enough, nor educated enough to be “Kafir”. Ignorance and Kufur don’t mix. Only when someone become knowledgeable by educating himself on the subject, then discover it make sense, but then for some reason denies it and try to conceal it, is deserving the state of “Kufur(hood)”. Thus, a Kafir is someone educated enough and smart enough to know what he/she is concealing or covering. And you’re far away from that, since A) you don’t even know the level of your own imbecility, and B) seem to dumb to even conceal that, let alone subjects that are way over your league, since you proved to be intellectual incapable.
2) “Harby” means a loser, example: “Oh look it’s Harby he can’t win a poke war”…..I’ll definitely grant you that one.
Or “Harpy”? meaning a filthy monster, I’ll grant you that as well.
December 31st, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Mr Harby, you are most welcome.
Frankly I couldn’t care less about BNI, it is a sniveling wreck of humanity and kinda typical of the junk that fools such as yourself post day in day out. I might also add that crack cocaine is also massively popular but it doesn’t make it either good or right so what passes for a ‘blog’ being popular means nothing.
But please ask the drones to send me more death threats, I’ve nearly filled my scrapbook.
Jack
December 31st, 2011 at 10:00 pm
@asdf
People are not idiots to feel threatened by Islam for no reason.
I disagree.
January 1st, 2012 at 4:29 am
@Ilisha “It is true that Islam has some punishments that are harsh by modern standards, but the Bible says if anyone tries to seduce you from the Christian God, you should, “…pelt him with stones until he dies.” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)”
I generally agree with your post but I don’t think you will get many Christians using verses from Deuteronomy as a guide to modern life. I am an atheist and I would like to think that humans have moved on from the Iron Age madness of Deuteronomy.
January 1st, 2012 at 10:05 am
This is not a referendem on free speech. This is about a violation of an implied promise by setting up a webpage on a privatly owned website. The private party decided that the webpage violated a code of conduct, and will remove the site. This isnt a victory for anyone…there is no need to cheer and celebrete overtly.
I often think of a picture I saw in a book about the American civil rights movement. A picture of a White lady in the face of a small, pigtailed Black girl with her mouth open as if she was screaming at the child. All around there were signs promoting hatred and bigotry. The child, looking right into the woman’s eyes, standing frail, but unmoved.
I dont know this woman. I dont know if she was a bigot, or hated the child. Perhaps she was walking home from a church meeting, and simply got caught in the moment. Perhaps she is a good mother, a wonderful wife, and a caring humanbeing in general. Perhaps she was college educated, and was well known in the advancement of mankind. We dont know.
However, no matter what the woman is, or was…this picture is her legacy. The photograph is the shame her family hides. This is how she will be remembered to the world…a photograph in which see simply broke composure to invest in fear and hatred…if only for the seconds it took to take the photo.
One day, perhaps in a generation, people who are bigots and hateful will be relegated to a book, in which we show our blots on humanity.
What we as Muslims can take away from this is…
In a way, it is sorting out the grain from the chaff. The more they hate, the more people of good morals and ethical values will study, and embrace Islam for thier own.
In a way…being always raised in Muslim surroundings, and speaking to those who have ‘reverted’, I feel a bit jealous when they tell thier stories. I dont know what it feels like to be ‘new’, and ‘clean’, or to ‘get a fresh start’. Personally, I think we should spend more time listening to the newest of our brothers and sisters in Islam for encouragement and steadfastness, rather than dwell in the discouraging that those who hate bring to us.
Some of the most beautiful flowers have thorns protecting them…but we cherish the flowers on the vine for thier scent and thier beauty.
This is our thorny time, be we can see the beauty, and smell the scent of the result.
I just wanted to put out a little word of encouragement to all of you. Soldier on.
May Allah guide us rightly.
January 1st, 2012 at 10:08 am
@Farlowe
Agreed, and my words were meant to convey a similar idea.
@Believing Atheist
“You don’t encourage reform by telling dissenters to keep silent and label them as bigots as you and Danios did with me.”
I never told you to keep silent, and your comments are published for all so see. I didn’t call you a bigot either. I wrote:
“Are you being deliberately provocative?
First you said Muslims need to stop “crying,” get educated, and get organized, as if they’re backward whiners who need your tutelage to combat bigotry. Maybe you think that’s constructive criticism, but I think it’s insulting.”
I did find it insulting, and I still do.
Encouraging reform doesn’t necessarily mean dictating to others, nor does it need to be condescending. It could mean leading by example.
Or ideally, it could mean insisting powerful countries stop regressing other countries through war and unjust economic polices. Creating chaos and poverty doesn’t “encourage reform,” at least not the good kind.
…whatever the Muslim world is doing, it is not working.
The West played an enormous role in tearing up Muslims countries, yet few want to take their fair share of responsibility for that. That’s part of the reason it’s still happening, even as I type.
Yes, Iraq is a mess. How did it get that way? No one with the slightest grasp of history can lay that at the feet of Islam. Who overthrew democracy in Iran and Lebanon? Who colonized and divided up the Middle East, as P. J. O’Rourke once said, “like monkeys at a salad bar”?
Who helped wreck Afghanistan? Have you ever seen photos of Afghanistan in the 1960s and 70s? Google “Once Upon a Time in Afghanistan” and ask yourself what happened. It took a global village to wreck Afghanistan, Believing Atheist. Ask the British, the Russians, and the Americans if Allah made them do what they did to that country.
I could name country after country and we could analyze how it got the way it is, and dispel that lethal combination of arrogance and ignorance that emboldens people to lecture Muslims on the current state of affairs. Everyone could stand to look in the mirror and engage in some constructive self criticism, not just Muslims.
We have the same lopsided equation when it comes to violence. Yes, Muslims should (and do) condemn terrorism. When will the West condemn war? The overwhelming majority of people killed in war are innocent civilians, and wars are often based on flimsy pretexts, if not outright lies.
The war in Iraq is just coming to an end, and already there are influential people in the US pushing for a war with Iran. Why is terrorism on a grand scale just fine as long as it’s cloaked in the language of war?
Who’s really in denial?
Just look at their economies
Yes, just look at them! And read “Confessions of Economic Hit Man” too.
The Muslim world seldom makes scientific discoveries…That says something about the benighted state…
Why group human development measures by religion? Do you know how things are going in the “Hindu world” or the “Buddhist world”? Ecuador, The Congo, and Canada are all part of the “Christian world.” Is lumping them together of practical benefit? Of course not.
You are perpetuating the “Clash of Civilizations” and trying to correlate things that aren’t necessarily related. Somalia is not Turkey, and Indonesia is not Pakistan. There are many predominantly Christian nations that are war-torn, impoverished or otherwise “benighted,” to borrow your term.
You want to make it about Islam. That would resonate with Aayan Hirsi Ali, not with me.
Please remember what you wrote on the Feminist Mosaic thread about the superiority of your “adopted culture.” You apologized, but you’re still making similar statements. If you don’t mean it, please don’t apologize.
I’d rather have you stand your ground than issue false apologies.
Advise comes off better when it’s from friends who view the recipients as equals.
For example, in the aforementioned book, Iftikhar wrote:
“…For it does not take a rocket scientist to see quite clearly that we Muslims have been the political laughing stock of the world (in terms of geopolitical issues) from the early beginnings of the 20th century.”
Does he sound like he’s in denial or shying away from criticism? You may think you’re saying the same thing, but what he said is an outgrowth of a very different mindset. I find his approach inspiring, not insulting.
Most of what you say is steeped in a classic White Man’s Burden mentality. It doesn’t matter that you’re of South Asian origin because it’s an ideology, not a race, and it’s at the core of the problem. You can’t frame it as the solution.
You then claim you want people to stand beside you and help you. No you don’t, because how can you when you are in denial?
You’ve made the same points over and over, and I believe you mean well, but I don’t have to agree with you.
January 1st, 2012 at 10:11 am
Adam,
I’ve seen most of Hasan’s videos, and I can guarantee you that he would Hate Bare Naked Islam if he ever saw it.
January 1st, 2012 at 11:27 am
> ”I generally agree with your post but I don’t think you will get many Christians using verses from Deuteronomy as a guide to modern life”
LOL, apparently you haven’t meet the right-wing nutcases of this world, and those aren’t a fringe, but the majority of right-wingers(aka Christianists), who not only uses the verses of Deuteronomy as a guide for “modern” life, but breathe by it. And they don’t only use it as a “guide” for daily life either, cause that would have been fine if that was only the case, but they use it for far worse my friend, to launch global destructions, exhibit A – George W Bush, remember?
But let me ask you this,- [since I'll admit and proudly that I indeed use the Book of Allah as my ultimate guide in my everyday "modern" life] – What do you offer as “alternative” instead? Will that be how to worship the “West” and the revelation of its cultural and racial supremacy? Are we outh to be using that as a “guide” for our “modern” life instead? and leave our “backward” believe that gives superiority Only God, and not men?
January 1st, 2012 at 12:55 pm
@Ali
“GREAT MAJORITY of Muslim countries make religion have no say in politics.”
That is incorrect. From what I understand, except turkey and indonesia, every single muslim majority coutry has references to Islam and Quran in their constitutions.
@Ilisha
I am not going to defend BNI. I like the concept of free speech but am personally uncomfortable with hate and I think it is counterproductive for the long term health of a society. It is productive only in the sense that it makes people sit up and take notice.
“Most Christians and Muslims don’t employ harsh punishments based on scripture.”
Of course they don’t. I believe human beings are fundamentally good and kind. Being good and kind is supported by evolution which is a reflection of the laws of the universe which in turn reflects God’s, Allah’s or the supreme being’s values.
However Political Islam is a huge problem in my eyes. It is religious apartheid in many ways and almost suppression of other religions and personal freedoms and is plain bad in this day and age. And the fact the constitutions of almost 55 muslim majority countries with young demographics have references to or are based on Quran and Islam is alarming to me. And I feel threatened by this reality. And, then I go on the websites of various Muslim organizations in the USA and a lot of them support political islam. For example, one of my muslim friends recommended me the website of progressive muslims who question everything in the Quran so blasphemy is not an issue with them. So they are progressive in that sense. However, even their agenda can not get past the establishment of a utopian Islamic state. This blows my mind.
“Many of the most prominent “ex-Muslims” have been exposed as frauds. Others are capitalizing on the current climate, gaining notoriety at the expense of Muslims.”
That is again incorrect. Ex-muslims are not frauds. Frankly I find ex-muslims to be more intelligent and rational in general. I have personally liked listening to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and she did help me in making the distinction between Islam as a personal religion and Islam as a political ideology. This was helpful in me trying to understand Islamic history, it’s political roots and it’s meteoric spread in the world. In my opinion,Islam is a version of marxism for the 7th century. And, this characterization of ex-muslims as frauds and trying to run them down severely dents your credibility. I will read up on islamic pacifism as you suggested.
I do believe in plurity and diversity and I think overall the society is richer for it. The right to hold personal religious beliefs is a fundamental american value and America is what it is because of it’s civil liberties.
The point which I was making was that the fact that there are 55 countries with Islam in their constitutions is threatening to me. And, in the increasingly interconnected world, America and American Muslims are not insulated. I have listened to a lot of muslim voices, have muslim friends and I am not a bigot by any means and “even then” I don’t like Islam as a religion very much. Islam to me is basically a personality cult of prophet Muhammed. I love the concept of Allah, worshipping Allah, like Sufi Music but I don’t think Muhammed or the Quran has much to do with Allah’s voice.
January 1st, 2012 at 1:16 pm
@IIlisha,
Wow! Just wow. You are creating misrepresentation of me and my views. Now people will think I am an imperialist, believe in Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations and in Kipling’s White Man’s Burden when I believe in none of the three.
“Or ideally, it could mean insisting powerful countries stop regressing other countries through war and unjust economic polices. Creating chaos and poverty doesn’t “encourage reform,” at least not the good kind.”
Did you read my comments on Ron Paul’s Imagine Thread? I labeled the U.S. as an imperialist power, which subverts human rights and kills innocent Muslims. I also wrote I am ashamed to be an American sometimes.
“You want to make it about Islam. That would resonate with Aayan Hirsi Ali, not with me.”
Hirsi Ali and I are not exactly allies. I despise her as I despise Geert Wilders. In fact I called Wilders a fascist and his party a fascist party. Hirsi Ali was Wilders’s collaborator so by extension I can’t have respect for her.
“I’d rather have you stand your ground than issue false apologies.”
That was not a false apology. I apologized because my words were belligerent and aggressive and stemmed from anger over an argument I had with Dr M and also because I failed to recognize liberal Islam, which does exists and needs to be promoted.
“Most of what you say is steeped in a classic White Man’s Burden mentality.”
Why do you keep on repeating that? I don’t believe in the white man’s burden mentality because I don’t believe in colonialism or imperialism. I believe the Muslim world has a right to self-determinism. Just read my comments in the Ron Paul Imagine thread.
January 1st, 2012 at 2:19 pm
@asdf
“I believe human beings are fundamentally good and kind.”
Good, then we have some common ground.
“And, in the increasingly interconnected world, America and American Muslims are not insulated.”
Right, and in the increasingly interconnected world, Christians and Christians in Muslim lands are not insulated. The aggressive, militaristic policies of the West impact them too.
Don’t be surprised if this cuts both ways.
That is why I said we need to oppose collective punishment of religious minorities, no matter where they are. I believe Christian minorities in places like Egypt deserve to peace and security, and so do Muslims in America.
“…. And the fact the constitutions…are based on Quran and Islam is alarming to me. And I feel threatened by this reality.
How are you personally threatened? Other countries have the right to self determination, and if Muslims want Islam to play a role in their government, that’s their right.
It’s unbelievably tyrannical for the “liberal” West to tell Muslims their countries must be made over in our image. It’s our way or the highway. They don’t have to accept that, anymore than you have to accept them telling you how to run your country.
“That is again incorrect. Ex-muslims are not frauds.”
Yes, some of them certainly are.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/07/walid-shoebat-ex-terrorist-fraud-stealing-taxpayer-money/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/07/ex-terrorist-fraud-walid-shoebat-exposed-part-2/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/01/wafa-sultan-meets-intelligent-person-and-gets-flabbergasted/
http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/faqs.htm
“Islam to me is basically a personality cult of prophet Muhammed. I love the concept of Allah, worshipping Allah, like Sufi Music but I don’t think Muhammed or the Quran has much to do with Allah’s voice.”
You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts. Muslims do not and never have worshiped the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), which would be a grave sin in Islam.
“I have personally liked listening to Ayaan Hirsi Ali and she did help me in making the distinction between Islam as a personal religion and Islam as a political ideology.”
Aayan Hirsi has militant views and wants to eradicate Islam (see quotes below).
I was planning to critique the book in an article here, but thought it might be too much of a rehash of the issues we’ve already covered. Now I’m thinking it’s well worth the time. I hope you’ll stop back when the article is published.
For now, here is what she said when asked: “Do you think Islam could bring about similar social and political changes?”
Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed…
http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/singlepage
She sounds EXACTLY like the worst Muslim extremists who say the same thing about “Crusaders and Jews.” She is the mirror image of those she claims to oppose.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/01/ayaan-hirsi-ali-change-the-constitution-to-eliminate-muslim-rights/
January 1st, 2012 at 2:29 pm
@Believing Atheist
“Now people will think I am an imperialist, believe in Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations and in Kipling’s White Man’s Burden when I believe in none of the three.”
I hope people form their own opinions, rather than accepting my interpretation of your words.
January 1st, 2012 at 5:48 pm
@Geji “What do you offer as “alternative” instead?”
I use proprioception of the cardiac vagus nerve as my inner guide and science and logic as my outer method.
I believe that at the final seconds of my life my own brain will sum up my own memories of how I treated others and my own brain will make judgement. I cannot escape my own judgement of my actions!
January 1st, 2012 at 6:12 pm
It would appear many of the commentators here have not consulted Islam’s own historic source material. The Quran, Sunnah and Sirah quite clearly and unmistakeably reveal to us that the self-proclaimed ‘Prophet’ Muhammad, MURDERED all who spoke out against him, and with the support of his deluded, booty and sex motivated followers, he lied, plotted, enslaved, tortured, killed, robbed, ransomed and raped his way to absolute political and religious power.
Before denegrating those who oppose Islam, please, I implore you, take time to consult Islam’s OWN SOURCES.
January 1st, 2012 at 6:32 pm
TO LLISHA With the greatest of respect for your peace loving comments I must ask you if you can name just one of the 57 nations which make up the ORGANISATION OF ISLAMIC COOPERATION that DOES NOT discriminate against, or persecute its non-Muslim citizens. EVERY DAY, from reputable media sources, I learn of of false accusations of blasphemy and desecrations of the Quran, kidnapping for forced conversion and marriage, the rape of non-Muslim females, even BABIES, and attacks upon non-Muslims and their homes businesses and places of worship.
Muslim in the West enjoy the right to freely worship their God and follow the Five Pillars of Islam, but Christian, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddists etc in the 57 OIC nations are discriminated against and persecuted even unto death. SUCH IS THE EVIL NATURE OF ISLAM.
January 1st, 2012 at 7:07 pm
@Ilisha
“Right, and in the increasingly interconnected world, Christians and Christians in Muslim lands are not insulated. The aggressive, militaristic policies of the West impact them too.”
Ilisha, I am assuming that you live in a western country most likely. I have experienced living in both the west and islamic countries. There is no comparison between the legal rights of religious minorities in america and the rights granted to religious minorities in islamic countries. The islamic world has lots of distance to cover and lots to learn before it can be even compared to america and even gain the right to criticize america when it comes to the treatment of religious minorities.
“Other countries have the right to self determination, and if Muslims want Islam to play a role in their government, that’s their right.”
Of course they have their right. But we know better from history. A child has the right to colas and candies and tantrums and throwing things around but people who are grown up and have been thru that phase of life know better and can tell the kids what to do. It does not give them to right to beat the kids up but at least preach to them. The western world has grown out of it’s religious dogmas and has learnt from experience the importance of keeping religion far away from legal frameworks to build a nation state. Eventually the muslim leadership in islamic countries will learn. But I am just surprised and disappointed at the muslims living in western liberal societies. I find it incredibly hypocritical of them to enjoy the personal liberties (religious and otherwise) of secular systems and then come back and say that let the muslims in Islamic countries have Islam in their constitution. This is utter intellectual bankruptcy of the muslim leaders in the west if it is true and just plain selfish on their part. Makes me wanna say, “why don’t you move to a country with an islamic constitution if you think that it might not be so bad?”. If I know that something is good, why would I not want to preach it. I will not use force but will certainly preach it. That is why, George Bush’s idea to impose a secular democracy in Iraq using force was a dumb and dangerous idea. But, USA along with the help of willing American muslims should be using all the diplomatic tools available to preach secular democracy. Again, those american muslims who think and believe that islam in the legal framework is good, they should consider moving as soon as possible. Put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, they are being a nuisance to the rest of the american muslims who understand the importance of separation of religion from the constitution and legal frameworks. They are actually inhibiting the intellectual evolution of muslims and contributing to the oppression in the muslim lands by holding on to their misguided egos and beliefs about political islam.
How incredibly selfish and myopic of them to invite their relatives and friends and family over to America and then advocate political islam for the muslim world and even in america if and when they are doing that!!!
January 1st, 2012 at 7:28 pm
@Stuart Parsons
TO LLISHA With the greatest of respect for your peace loving comments…
Thank you.
… I must ask you if you can name just one of the 57 nations which make up the ORGANISATION OF ISLAMIC COOPERATION that DOES NOT discriminate against, or persecute its non-Muslim citizens.
Well, I know Christians who either live or have lived in Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. When we have parties, Muslims and Christians (and others) come and socialize together.
If they had problems with persecution in their native countries, they haven’t mentioned them. I know my friends from Ramallah (West Bank) boast about how well they get along “back home.”
This doesn’t mean there isn’t any persecution. Directing ferocious hatred at Muslims makes things worse. I think instead we need to start a dialogue and work toward peace.
Maybe you should try to meet some Muslims and Christians who are from the Middle East, North Africa, or South Asia and talk to them yourself. If that’s not possible, consider visiting some websites and let Christians speak for themselves.
Here are some recommendations, though I’m sure you can find more:
Protestant
http://www.sabeel.org/index.
Catholic
http://www.al-bushra.org/
Another idea is an interfaith group.
“EVERY DAY, from reputable media sources, I learn of of false accusations of blasphemy and desecrations of the Quran, kidnapping for forced conversion and marriage, the rape of non-Muslim females, even BABIES, and attacks upon non-Muslims and their homes businesses and places of worship.”
What are the reliable media sources you are reading?
Many hate sites deliberately give you a distorted picture. For example, the highest rates of rape and child rape are in non-Muslm countries in Sub-Saharan Africa. This can be easily verified.
Here is an exmaple of a one-sided story:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/muslim-leaders-condemn-christmas-day-bombings/
And here is an example of an outright lie:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/10/fake-nigerian-christians-burnt-alive-photo-resurfaces-on-facebook/
As far as what you said about the Qur’an and other Islamic sources, can you give some specific examples? There are many people here who would be happy to answer your questions or talk to you more.
I hope you’ll stop by again. Take care and Happy New Year.
January 1st, 2012 at 9:56 pm
Stuart Parsons,
Even if there are some horrendous things in the Qur’an and other books that Muslims consider to have value, that doesn’t say anything about how the average Muslim behaves. Also there are horrendous things in the Bible, that most Christians and Jews tend to ignore, thankfully. Just because there are Muslims who are violent intolerant hate mongers doesn’t mean you should be towards Muslims in general.
January 1st, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Here’s a story from a day ago:
CAIRO — Egyptian authorities have detained a Coptic Christian student accused of posting a drawing of Islam’s prophet on Facebook that triggered two days of violence in southern Egypt.
Gamal Massoud has been accused by fellow students of ridiculing the Prophet Muhammad….
…Since Wednesday, villagers have attacked Massoud’s house while chanting “Allahu akbar,” or “God is Great.”
They have set fire to other Christians’ houses.
Many Christian villagers fearing retaliation have left their homes.
Security forces intervened, using tear gas to disperse Muslim protesters.
tldr: Egyptian Muslims attacked and burned Christian homes after a Christian student is accused of having a picture of Muhammad on his facebook account. Instead of arresting the Muslim mob, the Egyptian authorities arrest the Christian boy.
Another day, another unruly mob.
As for the Palestinian territories, perhaps Llisha can google “ahmadi” and “Palestinian authority” if she wants to find out about religiously sanctioned persecution in her own homeland.
It speaks volumes someone as socially conscious as her would be clueless of what goes on in her own backyard.
Now, I’m curious, how can I believe Llisha that she’s interested in true interfaith equality when to her mind Muslims don’t need to work making their societies more tolerant to the “other” because Llisha and other Muslims simply aren’t aware of discrimination?
Perhaps Llisha should spend more time on sites highlighting persecution of minorities in the Muslim world than as an author on “loon”watch?
January 1st, 2012 at 11:09 pm
Other countries have the right to self determination, and if Muslims want Islam to play a role in their government, that’s their right.
So you have no problem if Americans want to ban sharia law before it ever gains a foothold in the US?
Hopefully you have expressed these views on the numerous threads at “loon”watch over the weeks and months.
January 2nd, 2012 at 3:56 am
@stuart parsons,
Time for you stop chewing on Spencer’s droppings. You’ve got some nerve coming here with that outlandish rubbish. The same devils who have destroyed the lives of millions of Iraqis, Afghans, Palestinians and countless others are in position to cry foul.
Your crimes and evil nature lie exposed.
January 2nd, 2012 at 4:50 am
Excuse me, but “freedom of speech” is not for a private-owned web service – like WordPress. WordPress can regulate speech all it wants on its own service. Glad to see that is does here – and it’s about time!
“Respect for free speech” is only with regard to the government.
Also – threats, promotion of violence and slander/defamation are not protected speech!
January 2nd, 2012 at 8:06 am
Stuart Parsons wrote:
>> EVERY DAY, from reputable media sources, I learn of of false accusations of blasphemy and desecrations of the Quran, kidnapping for forced conversion and marriage, the rape of non-Muslim females, even BABIES
Can you please direct me to a few of these articles from these reputable media sources that talk about babies being raped in Muslim countries?
I just read at Islamophobia Watch that BNI is back up. I strongly believe in freedom of speech, but if a website starts encouraging physical violence, then I do draw the line. So if BNI is back up, it should be made clear that they can continue their mental theories of Muslims and Islam, but if they incite violence, they will be held accountable.
January 2nd, 2012 at 9:16 am
@Leaveit2Bob the persistent troll
I tried to engage Stuart because I don’t know what animates his anger. You’re just hateful, and you’re here to make trouble.
“As for the Palestinian territories, perhaps Llisha can google “ahmadi” and “Palestinian authority” if she wants to find out about religiously sanctioned persecution in her own homeland.”
My own homeland? Have you decided that I’m Palestinian? You know nothing about me and my background.
The Palestinians Christian communities are some of the oldest in the world, and they lived with Muslims for centuries. Palestinians are all equally victimized by Israel and the US.
That’s why I suggested Stuart talk to people directly so he can know the truth.
“It speaks volumes someone as socially conscious as her would be clueless of what goes on in her own backyard.”
Um, I live in the US. The Middle East is not in my own backyard. Buy an atlas.
“Now, I’m curious, how can I believe Llisha that she’s interested in true interfaith equality when to her mind Muslims don’t need to work making their societies more tolerant to the “other” because Llisha and other Muslims simply aren’t aware of discrimination?”
Other Muslims? Again, you don’t know my background. I could be a Muslima or a Wiccan for all you know.
Apparently you have poor reading comprehension, so let me clarify for you. I said everyone needs to work to make sure religious minorities live in safety and security. “Everyone” includes Muslims.
“Perhaps Llisha should spend more time on sites highlighting persecution of minorities in the Muslim world than as an author on “loon”watch?”
You have a lot of nerve if you’re an American, or even European. Nothing has hurt Christian communities in the Muslim world more than US/Western foreign policy. Maybe you should spend your time highlighting the atrocities the West has visited on Muslims and Christians alike.
People like you use Christians as props in your campaign to vilify Islam. If you cared in the slighest about their plight, you’d stop fanning the flames of hatred, which only makes things worse.
I actually care about real people, and I’ve been devoted to interfaith peace and friendship since I was a teenager. You don’t have the moral high ground to lecture me.
January 2nd, 2012 at 11:11 am
Stuart Parsons: EVERY DAY, from reputable media sources, I learn of of false accusations of blasphemy and desecrations of the Quran, kidnapping for forced conversion and marriage, the rape of non-Muslim females, even BABIES and attacks upon non-Muslims and their homes businesses and places of worship
From your reputable sources, how many non-Muslims were subject to accusations of blasphemy, kidnappings, forced conversion and marriage, and rape TODAY (3rd January 2012), taking the Muslim world as a whole? Can you also specifically tell me, for instance, how many non-Muslims were put through those atrocities in Bangladesh today?
January 2nd, 2012 at 1:20 pm
leaveit2bob,
we’re practicing Sharia everyday by praying, paying Zakat(that means charity), being good to our neighbors, supporting the constitution, paying the govt. ridiculously high taxes since we’re US citizens (so we are contributing to our society),defending our religion from nutbags like you, eating halal meat, enlightening others about Islam through interfaith, staying faithful to out spouses, community volunteer work, etc. etc.
Sharia is what’s in the Quran which I’m sure you haven’t read. Sharia does not mean stoning, beheading,nor honor killing. That’s what extremists do. That’s what you haters wish we would do to further your agenda.
January 2nd, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Stuart Parsons Says:
It would appear many of the commentators here have not consulted Islam’s own historic source material. The Quran, Sunnah and Sirah quite clearly and unmistakeably reveal to us that the self-proclaimed ‘Prophet’ Muhammad, MURDERED all who spoke out against him
That is your point of view from a book you just read and going just off text most of the people here follow islam and they have read the History of muslim and the persecution they faced when Islam started and muslim had to do to defend them self from people wipeing them out like Hitler did to the jews You do remember that right and how the “Christians” and followers of “ Peaceful Christ” did not turn the other cheek. If you have read Islam then you would know people throw trash at mohammed when he use to pray and they were forgiven by him.
Lebenon
# Total population, including non-Christians: 4 million
# Percent Christian: 34-41%
Syria:
* Total population, including non-Christians: 18.1 million
* Percent Christian: 5-9%
Occupied Palestine/Gaza & the West Bank
• Total population, including non-Christians: 4 million
• Greek Orthodox: 35,000
• Melkite: 30,000
Egypt:
• Total population, including non-Christians: 83 million
• Copts: 7.5 million
• Greek Orthodox: 350,000
Iraq:
• Total population, including non-Christians: 27 million
• Chaldean: 350,000 – 500,000
• Total population, including non-Christians: 5.5 million
• Greek Orthodox: 100,000
• Latin: 30,000
Get off Fox News Channel Some Isolated incidents dont make it a all out attack on all christians. There are Also Attacks on Muslims here in the USA remember there was a texi driver stabed and bombing of a mosque in FL Go back thru the archives here and read the story muslim don’t cry about wipe religious conspiracy against muslims and a all out war on Islam by Christians I know you think your special fighting a war against a evil army like Harry Potter vs Lord Voldemort and his followers and you will win and go down in history and people will remember you but that is not the way it is muslim are regular people .
January 2nd, 2012 at 10:47 pm
> “I use proprioception of the cardiac vagus nerve as my inner guide and science and logic as my outer method.”
1)- So are they Farlowe, so are they. But whereas you’ve decided that was enough for you, its only skin-deep superficial methods for them, so they’ve decided to go deeper in including God into the equation. It allows them to do even more mental gymnastics, to develop as what they see even greater methods for their inner and outer selfs. Thus, where you see that as enough, they don’t. But you also seem not to realize that those “methods” you’ve mentioned in the first place, were largely developed and transmitted to you by devotional godfearing people, whether they see Him as 10 or simply One.
> “I believe that at the final seconds of my life my own brain will sum up my own memories of how I treated others and my own brain will make judgement.”
2)- I thought Atheists didn’t “believe” anything unseen yet, and that that was precisely their major beef with the “believers” of the unseen, yet here you are “believing” what “will” happen at the final seconds of you life, isn’t that part of “believing” in the unseen yet? And why wait at the “final seconds” of your life for those assumptions, isn’t best to use them now as a reality while (hopefully) light-years away from your “final seconds”? And BTW, so are devotional godfearing people, but they make use of them now as a reality in order to avoid the worst and what they see as the bigger yet “judgement”.
> “I cannot escape my own judgement of my actions!”
Were you a bit “escaping” some of that “judgement” of yours when you’ve took the “action” of writing those “suggestions” as “alternative” regarding godfearing religious people? And by the way, do you even know what “godfearing” stands for? cause from your post it seem you don’t. So just to let you know, it means when one is to see that pecisely he/she can never “escape” the judgement of his/her own actions in life, and must constantly judge his/her own actions in order to better them in the hope of avoiding what they see as the ultimately inescapable big J !!.
Peace be with you.
January 2nd, 2012 at 10:48 pm
I hope all you muslim lovers burn in hell!
January 3rd, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Tyjkrysjh,
Oh yes we’re only fighting anti Muslim bigotry because we love Muslims. That’s like saying we’re only opposed to anti Jewish bigotry, because we love Jews, or we’re only opposed to anti black bigotry because we love black people, etc etc.
January 3rd, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Tyjkrysjh,
By the way, if there is a Hell, you might just end up there, and you maybe surprised by who else you see there.
January 4th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
@ H
You gave statistics on current non-muslim populations in those countries. It might be more fair for discussion if you gave what the non-muslim populations were prior to these countries becoming predominately islamic. Lebanon was predominately Christian and considered a Christian country, one of a few in the Middle East. Just saying!
January 4th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Populations are in flux all the time Susanna, that is the world and the age we live in, many of those countries were Jewish or Pagan before the Christians turned up for example. I think the point is that if Muslims really wanted to exterminate all Christians etc then we would have done so a long time ago. There have been non-Muslim minorities in Muslim majority areas ever since Muhammad’s time. We are either a) doing a very bad job getting rid of them or b) don’t really mind them being there.
Jack
January 5th, 2012 at 12:39 am
Susanna says: > You gave statistics on current non-muslim populations in those countries.”
1- Read carefully @H post, he didn’t give statistics of non-Muslim population, but statistics of total population including non-Christian populations.
> ”It might be more fair for discussion if you gave what the non-muslim populations were prior to these countries becoming predominately islamic.”
2- First, let me correct you on one note, no country its predominately “Islamic”, but there are many Muslim majority countries. The term “Islamic” really became adhesive in many “western” minds, which then they do not hesitate to stick it from left, right and center to anything Muslim, especially to what the deem bad. I think this sort of abuse of the word must come to an end………..Second, well I don’t know what you mean by “more fair” or even what is the base of the “discussion” you’re referring to, and you’ll have to clarify that for me. But I think that the majority of the non-Muslim in predominately Muslim (not “Islamic”) countries today, were what they are today, some which are Christians, others are Jews, and some others practice other form of monotheism. And before Islam, many practiced non-monoteistic religions.
> ”Lebanon was predominately Christian and considered a Christian country, one of a few in the Middle East. Just saying!”
3- Well what you’re “saying” is not very accurate, for example Lebanon never was a “Christian” nation. The area of what we’ve come to known today as “Republic of Lebanon” was part of the Ottoman Empire for many centuries up to 1918 when the area fall under the french colonizer mandate, in which some portions of the territory were predominately Christian, while others were predominately Muslim before September 1rst 1926 when the french colonizer decided to formed the “Republic of Lebanon”.
January 5th, 2012 at 12:53 am
Susanna, I’ve forgot to answer your last point where you’ve implied that there are “few” “Christian” nations in the Middle-East, there are no “Christian” nation in the Middle-East, or anywhere else for that matter, not one. And there are no “Islamic” nations as well. There are only Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindus, Buddhist “majority” nations that’s all.
January 5th, 2012 at 9:48 am
@Jack
Yes, populations are always in flux especially when they are persecuted and flee. As with the Jews in “predominately” Muslim countries, so has Christians fled the persecutions in their countries of origin. The Coptic persecution in Egypt continues while you and others do not speak up about their plight. Just so you know, Copts, while many have fled, will not leave Egypt, as they were there from the 5th century, long before Islam entered the scene. Below is an excerpt from an article about the Jewish refugees, little heard about or considered.
The Arab League rejection of the 1947 Partition Plan and its war against the new born state of Israel was responsible not only for the estimated 550,000 Palestinian refugees but also for the some 1,000,000 Jewish refugees who were driven out of Arab countries after their property and assets were sequestered. In 1945, there were more than 870,000 Jews living in the various Arab states. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted. Their property and belongings were confiscated. There were anti-Jewish riots in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and Iraq.
January 5th, 2012 at 6:13 pm
@Susanna
“The Coptic persecution in Egypt continues while you and others do not speak up about their plight.
It’s certainly not true that we don’t speak out about the plight of religious minorities, including Christians in Muslim-majority countries. We have done so consistently, and I have personally written quite a few comments on the subject this week.
We also recently published an article condemning the Christmas Day bombing in Nigeria:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/muslim-leaders-condemn-christmas-day-bombings/
Here are some videos that show a different side of interfaith relations in Egypt:
Christians protecting Muslims during their prayers in Tahrir Square – Egypt
Muslims protecting Christians, people of both faiths express solidarity: Sunday Mass Coptic Chrisitian and Muslims in Tahrir Square.- Egypt
Faiths united in Cairo demonstrations
January 6th, 2012 at 12:45 am
Susanna, as per ususal you judge both me and my 1.57 billion co-coreligionists based not on fact but on your own prejudice. I myself have spoken out against what happens to the Copts, many others doe. Muhammad himself even gave orders that Copts be protected during the eventual Muslim conquest of Egypt. Muslims also remember the fact that a Christian King sheltered the young Muslim community from persecution during the early years. And again, as you say, Copts and other minorities have been in Muslim countries since the beginning. Case point, if we really really really really really really wanted rid of them then we have had 1400 years to do it.
It is also interesting to note that the conditions for Copts were comparable to the conditions for any other minority anywhere in the world for a long time but only really started to deteriorate when the Free Officers Movement took control in the 1950′s. These days it is largely ‘Salfist’ groups, and a very small number of them, the same faces each time. As Ilisha points out, most Egyptians don’t take part in the violence, most Copts are generally fine and stable in Egypt. It is only certain people outside Egypt who play on it for political points.
As for the Jewish refugees, it was bad but what was to be expected? I think that the ‘Zionist’ moment wanting to create Israel wanted it to happen, indeed many governments supported it as they thought it was right that Jews should live separate from everyone else. Zionist groups deliberately stirred the pot many times to get what they wanted, even collaborating with Nazi groups, read about the Haavara Agreement. Indeed, Israel was great for Mr Hitler; it let him get rid of ‘the Jews’ and said Jews would in turn be armed and used to destabilize the British near the vital Suez Canal area. All if this I went through in a previous post that you never replied to, so we will take it as you accept this.
The thing is that these ‘refugees’ got a country. The half million or so Arabs who were evicted from Israel are still in camps a generation later.
But what is done is done, now we must live with it to achieve peace. What says you?
Jack
January 6th, 2012 at 8:06 am
Ilisha
These occurred during the initial uprising. Let’s see what happens once the Muslim Brotherhood reigns and implements Sharia law as its basis for government. It’s already happening, after Mubarak was ousted. We will have to wait and see.
January 6th, 2012 at 11:07 am
So will you come back and admit you were wrong Susanna ?
January 6th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
Susanna, I’ll first ask you to focus your energy in combating the prejudices and persecutions the Muslim community in your own country are facing today, from politicians bigoted and divisive statements towards them, to media bigotry first and foremost Fox “News, to burning Mosques and the objections to build them, to stabbing Muslims on the street just for being Muslim. Thus, if you’re so concern as you’re claiming about the persecutions of minorities by majorities, then start with your own country and your own fellow citizens in objecting the open bigotry directed towards your own minority communities, mainly since 9/11 your fellow American Muslim citizens, they’re the ones who need you right more than anyone else, and let the Egyptians handle their own problems the same way. And you must take into consideration that since it was the previous regime that had most to gain from sectarian divisions and violence, a democratic Egypt cannot afford this, especially since the world eyes as you yourself pointed out, will not only be on them from now on, but will also test them on their ability to deal with those issue thus proving their democratic capabilities. You also have to take into consideration that since both Copt and Muslim Egyptians were under secular dictatorship for decades which oppressed both groups for so long, the road for Change will be bumpy. I’m sure you’re familiar with the saying “Rome wasn’t built in a day”, well that should perfectly apply for the “Arab Spring”.
And BTW Shariah has always been the source of laws in Egypt even under the secular autocratic regimes of Mubarak and its predecessors. But since Shariah its interpreted differently under the 5 schools of Islamic thought: Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanafi; and the Shiite school, Ja’fari, therefore proving not being subject to stand-stills and can be interpreted in different ways, it can always be reformed at anytime to adjust the changing world, and can be as such incorporated in any system of laws according to the needs of the people and whatever situations they’re living in. So you Ms Susanna don’t need to “worry” for Egypt even if they decide to incorporate aspect of Shariah in their new constitution, Egypt follows the Hanafi school of Islamic thought which is the most liberal and the most focused on reason and analogy, so let the Egyptians decide for their own future( Insh-Allah )…………..Peace
January 9th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
@Geji
What persecution in Muslim communities are you talking about? I don’t see hordes of Christians burning a mosques and gunning down worshipers as they flee. I don’t see groups of Christians in cars running down innocent Muslims in the streets when they protest. I don’t see groups of Christians burning Muslim homes and destroying their property just because they are Muslims. If there are isolated incidence they are far and few between, but all over the Muslim world this is a daily experience for Christian minorities. I sympathize with anyone who has faced harm, but attacks on Muslims in this country is far less than attacks on even Jews. Your statements are far from correct and are slanted, because this is not a country that advocates violence towards one another.What may foster resentment towards Muslims is the constant victimhood stance that plays out in the Islamophobia arena, the push for sharia and the ineffective speaking out about what is going on in Muslim countries towards Christians and Jews. Yes, there are some who do speak out but as a community I have yet to see it.
As to your statement that sharia can be amended at time with the changing world. I think not.Youcef al- Qaradawi, spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, affirmed this reality in that sharia promoting organizations online forum ( that is, it is the concensus of the four schools of jurisprudence): THE SHARIA CANNOT BE AMENDED TO CONFORM TO CHANGING HUMAN VALUES AND STANDARDS. RATHER, IT IS THE ABSOLUTE TO WHICH ALL HUMAN VALUES AND CONDUCT MUST CONFORM. Sir, I take that to mean even non Muslims.
I am not a bigot or an islamophobe. I am Islam-aware. To me there is a bit of paranoia that seeks to find any little slight towards Muslims, islamophobic. What say you?
January 15th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
So glad BNI is back up. Look at the atrocities muslims cause every day all over the world. They kill christians and jews, because they will not convert. When was the last time you heard of a westerner going to a muslim country and blowing us islamists??? NEVER.. they come to Western countries, and DEMAND everything fits in with THEIR cult/islam, they regularly hold rallies in our country, demanding sharia law, and say that if we do not convert, death is the only answer. They mutilate little girls sexually, they also find it quite acceptable to take on more than one wife, most under age. The DO NOT assimilate, their koran forbids this. They are ‘allowed’ according to their koran, to tell outright lies to gain the upper hand on us..this is all documented in the koran. Women are considered on the same level as livestock and dogs, THE KORAN TELLS US SO. Death to INFIDELS- THE KORAN TELLS US SO…
This ideology is demeaning, cruel, sexually exploitive, demanding, male dominated, and filthy. The koran tells men, they can have sex with goats, but they cannot use the meat or milk of this goat once the act has been performed, but they CAN, give the meat and milk to a neighbour..this IS written in the koran.
I have read and studied this book, and all the hadiths etc and bits and pieces that go with it. This book is based on male dominance, war, possession, sexuality, murder, women stealing for sexual pleasure, just to name some of the wonderful subjects on offer.
The bible is not perfect either, but we- living in the Western world, do not follow all of the outdated beliefs in it, and do not live by every word said in its contents. We have become ‘realistic’ if you will. In islam, muslims follow that book with their life- still. People have been killed for running down this book, women have been killed for walking next to a man….AND SOME OF YOU HERE HATE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID ON BNI SITE? Look at video’s- graphic, YES, And why is that? Because that is how muslims roll my friends!…Sit back in your comfy homes, and say we are all being islamaphobes…I bet many did that through WW2, and now regret it!
These muslims are coming to our countries in boats and in droves. They bring their beliefs, and traditions with them , the very beliefs and traditions that cause the wars that made them flee their countries, straight to our countries..they have to be stopped carrying on these traditons and beliefs, or our countries will be the next to be taken over by these nutcases. Take a look in New York..the muslims are now spewing out into the streets and blocking the roads to pray 5 times a day! They keep having more and more kids, to add to the numbers and now the mosques are over filled! Some areas in Australia, even the police will not go to, for genuine fear of the neighbourhood, which has become totally muslim…and when you have idiots/imams on TV, telling us, (Yelling at us actually as they do) that we WILL become a sharia law abiding country, it makes my blood boil!
If we went to an islamic country, we would follow their rules or face death. islamists hate freedom. But they are very quick to demand their freedom of speech to push this cult as far as they can…wake up world, before you have muslims praying in your street, praying to allah to give them strength to convert all of us infidels to muslims…not in MY lifetime…!
BNI is a site that is TRYING to show the world what is happening. These muslims are engulfing our countries so fast, and have an absolute refusal to mix with anyone other than muslims. The men feel any woman uncovered is fair game to them. And we are allowing them into our country. The main stream media does not show some of the video’s BNI has on the site. Do you think these clips are fake, because our local TV channel does not show them? No way. It is just too much of a headache for the Government to face…our oil is contolled by islamists…need I say anymore?…
Sorry if some of the clips on BNI make you feel sick…and they should. Because THIS is what islam is doing all over the world. Don’t turn away…DO SOMETHING, before it is too late, before sharai creeps into YOUR home….
January 20th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Reference the oppression by Islam of those of other religions
For an exammple enter ‘Bulletin of the oppression of Christian women’ into your search engine.
January 20th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
@Wendy is trolling;
(8)they see me trolling,they hatin..(8)
and lacks originality