Believing Atheist;

I was making the statement in general and not to one specific person or post since I haven’t been reading the thread.

Now… secularism and Islam… I think there are two issues. The first is people trying to make Islam ‘palatable’ to the ‘western audience’ and I think that is wrong. The second is what one considers ‘secularism’.

All in all, and as the article I shared the other day (http://thepenofawanderingstranger.com/personal/most-islamic-countries-in-the-world-are-non-muslim/ I feel really bad to keep pimping this article but it is very very good) points out, ‘secular’ states tend to be more ‘Islamic’. I can take or leave secularism but in this day and age I think it is, to paraphrase Churchill, the worst apart from all the others.

I think that ‘secularism’ is all well and good as a step towards an ‘Islamic’ government. Frankly I feel that the so called ‘Islamic’ states of today would do well to prove that they can handle ‘secularism’ before they dare try something as complex as an Islamic state.

As your man points out this is becuase the ‘Sharia’ we see today is so deviant, so corrupted, that it is almost that we have to wipe the slate clean. Indeed, in some respects even the word ‘Islam’ has become so dirty it will be hard to save and bring back to how it should be. Will secularism help us clean the slate? In some respects I think so, but not all.

Jack

“And BTW @Believing Atheist, at the end of the day – *Islam* – is for Muslims, not others, and definitely NOT for Islamophobes – thus, the people who are best equipped to define “it” and what “it” means, will always be the MUSLIMS, not others, and certainly NOT those who despise “it”. Keep that in mind at anytime when you’re speaking of Islam.”

Well said… I get fed up of self declared ‘experts’ thinking they can tell me about my faith.

Jack

@Robert P

“Bush didn’t win against Kerry! He was crowned president by the US Supreme Court”

You’re thinking of the previous election, Bush vs. Al Gore, in 2000.

The election Senor is talking about was in 2004, and he’s completely right in his analysis. Bush got a clear victory in that election.

Although not directly related to the Oklahoma attempt to criminalize Islam, the U.S. Supreme Court yesterday (January 11) announced a major decision protecting religious liberty in the United States.

Chief Justice Roberts delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. In Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church and School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a minister was discharged from the Lutheran ministry, for cause, and was consequently terminated as a teacher at the church school. The EEOC sued the church, and the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment prohibited the secular government from attempting to overturn ministerial decisions related to the “secular” function of “teaching” performed by ministers. In other words, not only could the EEOC not interfere in church administration, but it could not even go to court to attempt to do so.

This is a major victory for religious liberty in America. It exactly parallels the Qur’an’s prohibition against interfering in the way other communities administer their affairs. Once again the Supreme Court has made clear that the “separation of church and state” ~ an Islamic law reflected in 1400 years of recorded history ~ prohibits secular authority from telling people of faith how to live within their respective religious communities.

The Supreme Court’s Opinion is worth reading ~ it recounts the history of religious liberty from the battles in England to the establishment of the Colonies, the Constitution, and the First Amendment. The history shows, unequivocally, that America was founded and established as a “Christian” country without the Roman Empire’s imposition ~ by the sword ~ of “official” religion on people who did not believe in that religion (notably Jewish people and later, during the Reconquista, muslims and everyone else as well).

The “Hosanna-Tabor” Opinion also has particular relevance for Muslim America. We are currently in the Washington State Supreme Court because this little Town of Springdale is trying to prohibit us from providing housing for an indigent homeless substitute teacher, a religious mandate and a ministerial exercise that the Town is trying to prohibit with “building codes” that violate the State Building Code (which explicitly accommodates this common practice by Christian churches all over the State). We’ve been fighting this battle in the courts for nearly two years, and would have had to have spent (so far) over a quarter of a million dollars had we not been able to do the legal work ourselves. In Hosanna-Tabor, the church has been supported by religious and liberty-oriented institutions across the country ~ Jewish, Christian, muslim, Hindu, and secular; here in Springdale, without secular-certified lawyers and doctorates and any fund-raising or “public relations” offices, we’ve had a somewhat different (but very enjoyable) experience with a Spokane television news show.

(Skeptics and those “inspired” to cast doubt in our direction may wish to look at Stevens County Case 10-2-00155-5 and Supreme Court Case 854173 before they start crying “Proof! Proof!” as if this forum were some kind of courtroom where everything has to be proven except what they write.)