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Santorum: Equality ‘doesn’t come from Islam’ but from ‘God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob’

Rick Santorum

Rick Santorum

Santorum: Equality ‘doesn’t come from Islam’ but from ‘God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob’

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Republican presidential contender Rick Santorum provoked an angry response from the Council on American-Islamic Relations Saturday for saying equality “doesn’t come from Islam“ but ”from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

“I get a kick out of folks who call for equality now, the people on the left, ‘Well, equality, we want equality.’ Where do you think this concept of equality comes from?” Santorum said during a South Carolina campaign stop Friday, ABC News reported. “It doesn’t come from Islam. It doesn’t come from the East and Eastern religions, where does it come from? It comes from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that’s where it comes from.”

The former Pennsylvania senator, a Catholic, has spoken openly about faith on the campaign trail.

“So don’t claim his rights, don’t claim equality as that gift from God and then go around and say, ‘Well, we don’t have to pay attention to what God wants us to do. We don’t have to pay attention to God’s moral laws.’ If your rights come from God, then you have an obligation to live responsibly in conforming with God’s laws, and our founders said so, right?” Santorum asked.

In a statement, CAIR communications director Ibrahim Hooper called Santorum’s remarks “inaccurate and offensive,“ and said the organization was sending the candidate a copy of the Quran so he could ”educate himself.”

“The Quran, Islam’s revealed text, is the best refutation of Mr. Santorum’s inaccurate and offensive remarks, which are unbecoming of anyone who hopes to hold our nation’s highest office. Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God and share religious traditions that promote justice and equality,” Hooper said. “We suggest that Mr. Santorum educate himself about Islam and the American Muslim community by reading the Quran that we will send to his campaign headquarters next week.”

 

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  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Proverb: It is clear that we have nothing further to discuss on this topic.

    Thank you. We are able to continue with nothing further from you, thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

  • Proverb

    @ Hajj Dawud

    Islamic claims are of no significance Biblically. What Muslims claim is what Muslims claim. Their claims have no bearing or credibility to me, as a Christian.

    The Christian faith and Covenant has no relation or affiliation with Islam, Mohammed, the quran and its deity.

    This is why I say your “theology” is confused. Now, it is clear that we have nothing further to discuss on this topic.

    Take care.

  • Proverb

    @ Stephen G Parker

    Look, you clearly missed the point of my diplomatic response to you. Please do not take this the wrong way, but I have zero interest in your take regarding Dispensationalism, Post-Millennialism, Futuristic approach, etc. I think coming from a theological family background, I know where to get any information I need.

    I also place no value on Islamic texts and sources. They are irrelevant to my Christian faith and have no authority or value Biblically.

    Take care.

  • Proverb

    @ Inspired By Mohammad

    1. What Jews claim to believe about Christian eschatology is irrelevant and does not amount to a representation of Christian eschatology. Logic dictates this. So the list of “Jews” you provided are of no significance of relevance regarding Armageddon.

    2. It takes a pretty poor grasp of the English language for one to conclude from my description of my doctrine that I am “Evangelical”, while ignoring “Protestant”, “Pentecostal”, “Non-denominational” and “Full Gospel”.

    Your claim that I am “Evangelical” merely evidences your selective reading and hawkish desire to impose your assumptions on me. It makes you a dishonest participant in this discussion.

    FYI, and to destroy your bizarre claims about my view of Catholicism, I come from an established Catholic family background and tradition – with relatives who are PRIESTS, hymn writers for the Catholic Church, trained Bible translators, etc. I was schooled in Catholic doctrine. So you comment on my motives out of sheer fiction and ignorance. I think the facade you wear of one tries to engage in productive discussion has clearly slipped off.

    3. As I do not recognise or place any validity on the left-wing and right-wing labels that popular media attach to various Christians, including, Evangelicals, I think your statement is an empty shell.

    4. You claim I “lie”. What have I lied about? Where did I ever mention or even deny “missionary activity”? The issue has never come up in my comments. If anyone is a liar here, it is evidently YOU.

    You talk as if missionary activity is something out of the ordinary. Christians have been sending out missionaries and witnesses of the Gospel around the world from the time of the Apostles of Jesus Christ (i.e. about 2000 years. Yes, read that again). As Christians have been sending missionaries and witnesses of the Gospel for almost 2000 years now, why do you speak as if you’ve made some new discovery, Inspired By M? You claim that there are missionaries in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Well, here is a NEWSFLASH: there are missionaries in not only Iraq, Afghnistan, Israel; but also in USA, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Somalia, China, Japan, Pakistan, across Europe, even in North Korea – actually in EVERY corner of the globe. I hope you are not surprised that there are missionaries in Israel. The Gospel was preached first in JERUSALEM.

    And here’s the bizarre fact: with rising persecution against Christians, there is a rising commitment to send MORE missionaries into places that persecute Christians. Persecution results in rising missionary activity. When the states behind the Iron Curtain began persecuting Christians, missionaries went in.

    I remember once standing in a book store looking for a new Bible. I then got into a conversation with another Christian (a stranger) regarding Bible translations. I did not notice an Arab man standing nearby, but he was paying attention to our discussion and approached us to ask if we could recommend a Bible to him. He must have seen my surprised expression (for in my country, it is rather unsual to come across someone who might need assistance choosing a Bible) and he explained clearly that he was a Muslim from Saudi Arabia and that he really needed a Bible. He had never owned one. In short, someone (a witness for the Gospel) has planted a seed by witnessing to him in Saudi Arabia. He, afterall, did not witness to himself…

    5. You claim I did not bring proof against the Catholic teachings and practices I reject. You say this, while not realising that this very statement from you PROVES that, contrary to your claim, you are in fact ignorant of the issues under discussion. Is it your submission then, that according to your “knowledge” of Biblical doctrine (for you claim to know much), those practices are Biblical?

    Go, read Martin Luther’s thesis – nailed to the door during the Reformation. Go pick up the Bible and read as YHWH clearly condemns the Israelites for their worship of the pagan deity known as “queen of heaven”. Go read Jesus’ words, where he says clearly to the believers that they have only ONE Father – God, not the Pope.

    Finally, you say that it is your “business to know what [your] talking about here”. Well, Inspired By M, from my observation, your “business” is clearly not “profitable” and shows evidence of “bankruptcy” when it somes to knowledge and truth. Furthermore, you should refrain from imposing your assumptions on others – this is clearly dishonest and dishonourable. You should also refrain from “bearing false witness against your neighbour”, which include Evangelicals. You must surely be omniscient, for you, a Muslim, claim to understand Christians more than I, another Christian.

    Clearly, we have nothing further to discuss here. Go your way. I cannot say “Go, in peace”, for your dishonourable words, seem to point to malice, not peace.

    Take care.

  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Sir Stephen writes: Muslims might better understand the actual teaching of the former Revelations (Torah, Prophets, and Gospel) if they can disassociate themselves from the cacophony of “traditional”, “orthodox”, and “dispensational” teachings – and examine the Biblical texts in the light of God’s Revelation through Muhammad (peace be with him and his family). If we do that, we will find that the “dominionism” which God has always taught is actually the same throughout all the Revelations.

    “Man has domain over all the earth.” Fundamental to all of the faiths of Abraham, and more.

    Muslims and others outside of Christianity should not be deceived by the “loudness” of “rapture theology” into thinking it’s “the” Christian viewpoint, or even necessarily the predominant Christian viewpoint.

    “God has sent a fragrant breeze that overtakes the souls of the faithful.” The Arabic translated as “fragrant breeze” is reeha, which is a diminutive word for ruh, a spiritual wind. It’s rapturous, and it’s heavenly, but it’s not a space flight.

  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Proverb testifies: I hold to the Fundamentals of the Protestant Faith, which are “Sola Scriptura” (the Bible alone is the authority for the Christian Faith …)

    Muslims believe that the Bible alone is the authority for the Christian faith.

    I am “born again” or “born of the Spirit of God” …

    Muslims believe that among the nominal Christians there are those who have been “born again of the Spirit of God.”

    I [am] filled with the Holy Spirit, as the Bible declares that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit.

    Muslims believe that among the nominal Christians there are those who are filled with the Ruh ul-Quddus, in English “The Holy Spirit” or “the Spirit of Holiness.”

    The Church of Christ has no “denominations” as His Body is ONE and UNDIVIDED.

    Your phraseology describes a mystical communion, but muslims believe that Messianic Israel, although scattered like salt in soup, is one body and undivided.

    Armageddon happens when the nations of the world gather together in the valley of Megiddo

    The Yarmuk river, during the rainy season, flows through the valley of Meggido.

    Peace to you, Christian.

  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Proverb Says (@ Hajj Dawud): Man! I am still reeling from the confused theology expressed in your post …

    The confusion is in your head. Read the Old Testament ~ which includes, among other things, a prophetic view (i.e., from an infinitely broad perspective) of human history through the present day ~ and make yourself familiar with the actual recorded history of The Promised Land after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem until the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the declaration of the modern state of Israel. You won’t just be “reeling,” you’ll see your entire world turned upside down.

    The forces of “the dark side” didn’t quit when Constantine made the bishop of Rome the Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman Empire, they just shifted into a higher gear, consolidated their control over their colonies in The Promised Land, and hid from our European (and American) ancestors what happened there for the next seventeen centuries. When you see the larger history, which was prerecorded in the Hebrew Scripture, “reeling” will not begin to describe the utter helplessness of what we’re all caught up in today. This Second Flood is of the waters of knowledge, and few today are able to swim, let alone ready to walk on water.

    Anyway, here is the link to the Philadelphia Church online publication.

    Thank you. Now I have more reading to find time to do.

    Take care

    Taking care ~ being careful ~ is the beginning of faith. There is more to religion than counting days and weeks of years that have already been fulfilled, that were hidden from the final heirs of Abraham, the children of Japheth, except in Books of “old fairy tales” that they don’t read.

    You need to take care of the children of the Father of Lies who have lied to you for over two thousand years.

  • http://www.mystic444.wordpress.com Stephen G. Parker

    @ Proverb – Thanks for your clarification. My difference with you still stands in that your original statement was that Dominionism was NEVER a part of Evangelical teaching; whereas I think it is fairly clear that from the time of the Protestant Reformation Dominionism was the prevalent teaching in Protestant and Evangelical thinking until Dispensationalism began to emerge and prevail around the middle of the 19th century.

    Even though Dispensational “rapture” theology is the form which is most vociferous today, I’m not at all sure that it is the majority view even in churches which may be labeled “Evangelical” even today. For instance, the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) is no doubt the largest “Evangelical” Presbyterian denomination currently. While they don’t have an “official” position on eschatology – there are Premillennialists, Amillenialists, and Postmillennialists within that denomination – the Dispensational “rapture” theology is simply not a part of that denomination. Even the “Premils” do not tend to adopt a primarily futuristic interpretation of the book called Revelation. They may be “partial” Preterists; or they may hold to “historical” interpretation (where the events of Revelation are seen to have been fulfilled in various historical events – with Rev. 20-22 still future, of course); or they may hold to “spiritual” interpretation where the symbols of Revelation are seen to be fulfilled over and over throughout history; but a completely “futuristic” interpretation of Revelation is probably completely absent in the PCA.

    I don’t really know for sure, but I suspect that “Evangelical” Lutheran Churches are either Amillennial or Postmillennial. A lot of Evangelical Methodists will also no doubt reject “rapturist” theology – though there are probably a lot more of them in Methodist churches than PCA or Evangelical Lutheran.

    Most of the vociferous “rapturists” are likely to be found in Baptist and Independent Bible Churches – and yeah, there are an awful lot of those around.

    The reason why I would consider it important to point this out is so that those outside Christianity will not be deceived into thinking there is any overwhelming uniformity in Christian belief about “future things”. In fact, the majority may in fact reject that which is the “loudest” position.

    But there’s an awful lot of Dominionism in Evangelical and Pentecostal circles – even though there are various shades of that Dominionism. And that Dominionism has been there from the beginning of the Protestant Reformation no matter which “millennial” position is being advocated. Charles Spurgeon always gave adherence to historical Premillennial confessions; but his Biblical exposition was right in line with that of Postmillennialists. He believed in the progressive triumph of Christianity, and what Ian Murray called “the Puritan Hope” of the universal conversion of the Jewish people at the same time as the blessing of the “Gentiles” reaches its “fullness”. He may or may not have believed in a regathering of those converted Jews in Palestine, but he definitely believed in the future conversion of the Jews as a people.

    Muslims and others outside of Christianity should not be deceived by the “loudness” of “rapture theology” into thinking it’s “the” Christian viewpoint, or even necessarily the predominant Christian viewpoint. “Rapture” theology is not “traditional” Protestantism or Evangelicalism – and there are a lot more “traditionalists” within Christianity even today than one might imagine if one listens only to the “loud” voices.

    I don’t believe, though (despite the amount of space I’ve taken up in writing about this), that Muslims ought to get too involved in trying to figure out the various Christian viewpoints on theology in general, or eschatology in particular. Muslims might better understand the actual teaching of the former Revelations (Torah, Prophets, and Gospel) if they can disassociate themselves from the cacophony of “traditional”, “orthodox”, and “dispensational” teachings – and examine the Biblical texts in the light of God’s Revelation through Muhammad (peace be with him and his family). If we do that, we will find that the “dominionism” which God has always taught is actually the same throughout all the Revelations.

    From Yusuf Ali’s edition of Sura 61: “8. Their intention is to extinguish God’s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But God will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). 9. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).”

    And as his note on that verse says: “‘Over all religion’ in the singular; not over all other religions, in the plural. There is really only one true religion, the Message of God, submission to the Will of God: this is called Islam. It was the religion preached by Moses and Jesus; it was the religion of Abraham, Noah, and all the prophets, by whatever name it may be called. If people corrupt that pure light, and call their religions by different names, we must bear with them, and we may allow the names for convenience. But truth must prevail over all…”

    I’m going to quit on this eschatology theme (and everybody sighed with relief! :grin: ). It’s really quite off the topic of this article, except what can be drawn from Sura 61 and Yusuf Ali’s note. It’s really as another commenter said: Rick Santorum was right in saying that equality comes from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But he’s wrong to say equality does NOT come from Islam, because the religion of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IS Islam!

  • http://www.inspiredbymohammed.com Inspired by Mohammad

    Anybody who wants to see Proverbs lies being debunked Should see the ‘Jews on First’ website, which keeps a tab on Christian Zionist extremists, there is excellent material there, a reminder that these people along with the neo cons are the biggest supporters of the illegal settlements and oppose the two state solution

    also see, Jim Lobe’s (neo con watcher) and his IPS News,
    http://www.lobelog.com/
    which Ali Gharib, and Eli Clifton (of Think Progress, and Fear Inc writers) contribute to,

    Evangelical leader pushing ‘End Times’ war with Iran
    http://www.alternet.org/story/39264//
    July 20, 2006 | By Joshua Holland

    ——————

    Christian fundamentalists favor an aggressively interventionist US foreign policy
    http://www.jewsonfirst.org
    Blackwater: fundamentalist-led mercenary army

    War and peace: Did evangelicals’ support for Iraq invasion damage credibility?

    Christian fundamentalists favor an aggressively interventionist US foreign policy

    ———————-

    Conservative Christians Biggest Backers of Iraq War
    by Jim Lobe
    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htm

    ———–

    CAP, “Israel-Firsters” and Iran
    January 20th, 2012 |
    http://www.lobelog.com/cap-israel-firsters-and-iran/Daniel Luban
    ———–

    Iran Hawk Watch
    January 27th, 2012 |
    http://www.lobelog.com/iran-hawk-watch-6/

    Jasmin Ramsey

  • http://www.inspiredbymohammed.com Inspired by Mohammad

    Proverb

    This is sheer fiction, Inspired By M. Do you actually have any idea what the War of Armageddon is? I keep seeing Muslims throw the word around, as if it lends credibility to the bizarre claims they make about Armageddon

    No it isn’t just Muslims. It’s Jews and Israelis too. Rachel Tabachnik is a Jewess. Max Blumenthal, Richard Silverstein and the largely anti Christina Zionist Jews in the USA are not Muslims. Sarah Posner, Phill WEiss, Christian Zionists biggest critics are Jews.

    So you are an Evangelical, trying to smear Catholics. The Pope and prominent Catholics around the world condemned the war mongering, as did the Protestant clergy but the Evangelical right wing SUPPORTED IT for religious reasons. That is the dirty truth that you are trying to obfuscate in your haze of end times theology.

    You’ll have to take my word, when I say i know what i’m talking about here. It’s my business to know, and i’m not as ignorant as you think I am.

    The problem with Right Wing Evangelical Christianity is that it is an empty shell, it has nothing to look forward to except the end times.

    You also lie, I am well aware of the missionising efforts in Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan which Evangeliscals try to do surrpetitiously, but keep failing at.

    You are trying to obfuscate by bringing in issues which are irrelevant. Evangelicals support the wars in Iraq and Iran for the Armeddegon.

    You brought not an iota of proof to back your smears against Catholicism.. Granted they have had a past which is not pretty, but they have made a serious effort to clear out the intolerance and make friends with those they wronged and their efforts have been largely successful.

    I suspect your own animosity and the fact that they are successful is what is fueling your resentment.

  • Proverb

    @ Inspired By Mohammad

    Question 1: “Just to understand your POV about Catholicism, what are your beliefs?”

    ANSWER: In short, I simply call myself a Christian and by every righteous label that the Bible gives to Jews in the Old Testament and to Christians in the New Testament:-)

    But, as I must classify myself by “theological” label, I am Protestant, Non-Denominational, Pentecostal, Evangelical, Full Gospel. To expound further:

    1. Protestant: I hold to the Fundamentals of the Protestant Faith, which are “Sola Scriptura” (the Bible alone is the authority for the Christian Faith, not tradition- like Catholic Tradition, etc); “Sola fide” (salvation is by faith alone); “Sola gratia” (“by grace alone”); “Solus Christus or Solo Christo” (salvation is in “Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”); “Soli Deo gloria” (“glory to God alone”).

    2. Evangelical and Full Gospel: In that I am “born again” or “born of the Spirit of God” or “saved through Christ Jesus”.

    3. Pentecostal: In that I filled with the Holy Spirit, as the Bible declares that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit. I also accept that the Holy Spirit still gives believers spiritual gifts (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, gift of faith, healing, etc)

    4. Non-Denominational: As all those labels mean little. The Church of Christ has no “denominations” as His Body is ONE and UNDIVIDED.

    5 My view on Catholicism is based solely on Scripture. I therefore reject the Catholic claim that:

    a) their Popes are the successors of the Apostle Peter;

    b) salvation is through the Roman Catholic Church;

    c) priests have the authority to “absolve sins” – only Christ Jesus forgives sins;

    d) it is “OK” to venerate objects or kneel in their direction as part of prayers: stones, statues, body parts of saints, etc. This practice is unBiblical;

    e) the Pope is infallible (only God is infallible), has the title “holy father” (this is blasphemy as only God is Holy Father), has the title “Vicar of Christ” (this title should be used for the Holy Spirit);

    f) Mary is “queen of heaven” – this is a pagan title;

    g) Mary can dispense “grace” – only Christ can. Furhtermore, it is unBiblical to “pray through” Mary and the saints;

    h) the Pope can confer “sainthood” – Only God confers sainthood and ALL LIVING and DEAD Believers are Saints, for God Himself “sanctifies them”;

    i) etc, etc.
    But they do believe in the rapture. They do believe in endless war for the Middle East. They support Israel for the wrong reasons, because the Jews will fry for their Armeggedon, and those that don’t will convert,

    Question 2: “Why do you think Evangelicals support/ed war in Iraq and now Iran?”

    ANSWER: For a variety of reasons, ironically. Some object to war in principle, but consider some wars a necessity. For some its political – they hold the view that Iran is a threat that must be dealt with. Some believe that it is unrighteous to allow a man threatening destruction to get the means to carry out his destructive threats. It also goes to the heart of Evangelical criticism of the Catholic Church during WWII nd the holocaust. That the Catholic Church failed to take Hitler at his word and failed in its moral obligation. It all depends on HOW the moral dilemma raise by war or failure to go to war is raised or framed. Why do some Evangelicals oppose giving aid to Eqypt? The moral objection to its persecution of Copts. There are even those who support military intervention in Sudan because of the murderous regime there. But alas, this is not news – you’re all hyped up by the media on Iran… Not everything in Evangelical circles revolves around “eschatology”.

    You made a rather bizarre statement “They do believe in endless war for the Middle East. They support Israel for the wrong reasons, because the Jews will fry for their Armeggedon, and those that don’t will convert..”

    COMMENT: This is sheer fiction, Inspired By M. Do you actually have any idea what the War of Armageddon is? I keep seeing Muslims throw the word around, as if it lends credibility to the bizarre claims they make about Armageddon.

    For the record, the War of Armageddon is sometimes called the “SHORTEST WORLD WAR IN HUMAN HISTORY”. Armageddon has nothing to do with “conversion”. The only forcible conversion that is expected to happen is when the anti-christ (supported by all non-Christians) persecute Christians and Jews who refuse to join their “world and religious system”. Evangelical eschatology teaches that the Jews will turn to Christ during this persecution as God would have prepared 144 000 Jewish believers in Christ (Revelation 7), who will bring the Gospel (for the final time) to Israel and the world. Evangelicals also refer to the 2 witnesses described in Revelation (the prevailing view is that they will be Jewish), who will stand and preach the Gospel in Jerusalem, wearing sackcloth (a sign of weeping, sorrow, repents and fasting). It is believed that the Jews turn to Christ from the preaching by the 2 witnesses and the 144 000 Jewish preachers. Armageddon happens when the nations of the world gather together in the valley of Megiddo to oppose CHRIST. The Evangelical understanding of this passage in Revelation is that the War ends before it even starts, as Christ appears in Glory with His hosts of Heaven and destroys the anti-christ and all the armies gathered to oppose Him. It is a no-contest war. Read Revelation 16 and 19.

    NOTE:

    Armageddon (the Final War) = the WORLD OPPOSING CHRIST. His mere appearance destroys them where they are gathered to oppose Him. Only those who have not gathered to oppose Christ (i.e. the remnant of believers in Christ who survive the Tribulation) are understood by Evangelicals to be protected from destruction.

    Gog and Magog war = the Islamic nations attacking Israel. It is a brutal war and Israel is severely outnumbered. By the hand of God, Israel’s enemies are destroyed.

    Evangelicals and many Pre-Millennialists make this clear distinction between the 2 wars.

    Take care.

  • http://www.inspiredbymohammed.com Inspired by Mohammad

    Proverb

    I have little interest in Evangelical eschatology or any other, as Christianity seems to live for the end times.

    You couldn’t answer 2 simple questions which would explain where you are coming from but you have the time to come and go and write long posts about the end times.

    My interest in your end times is where it specifically involves other nations and war, and by the way Rachel Tabachnik is one of the worlds best authoritie son Christian Zionism and the deviant theology it is.

    You’re an Evangelical right? That’s why you couldn’t explain Evangelical support for the war, and your hostility to Catholicism which has tried to right it’s wrong.

  • Proverb

    @ Hajj Dawud

    Man! I am still reeling from the confused theology expressed in your post…. Anyway, here is the link to the Philadephia Church online publication http://www.thetrumpet.com.

    Take care

  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Proverb writes: I read the publications by Armstrong’s Church often

    I haven’t read Armstrong for decades ~ I don’t know why, I suspect I was dropped from a subscription list at some point and never restored it, losing interest when the old man passed on. Do you have a link by which I can subscribe again?

  • http://www.muslimamerica.net/ma/dominion.htm Hajj Dawud

    Proverb writes: I do not expect any Muslim here (including Inspired by Mohammad) to grasp Evangelical eschatology – despite the explanations provided.

    I’m familiar with all of the futuristic speculations of those who inherited their faith from the Romans and the Talmudists, and I’m familiar with the fulfillments of nearly all of those prophecies that European Christians are awaiting and are only recently hearing about and not recognizing.

    The Promised Land was transformed and made new. The faithful have come, bearing the fruits of the Kingdom ~ which European Christians, after escaping the dominion of Rome, then inherited during, after, and from Islamic Spain. The Millennial Kingdom has come and gone. Armageddon ~ when “the camp of the saints” were beset by the legions of the false messiah ~ ran rivers of blood in 736 a.d. The “short season,” which began when Portuguese navigators learned to use sextants invented by the muslims, has scoured the world, consuming the natural resources of others, eradicating populations and cultures and religions, and is drawing to a close. The actual Good News ~ which did not reach Europe although still detailed in the Old Testament ~ is being spread in Europe and in the western hemisphere, fulfilling the Law of Moses. And Christianity, divided into innumerable sects all condemning every other, remains as it began ~ a House divided against itself, deceived by The Lie that salvation ~ liberation from the yokes of the enemy of humanity, the father of lies ~ comes in Israel.

    I agree that most of today’s muslims do not know these things. This is because ~ just as the Messenger of the Covenant told us ~ God took possession of the knowledgeable, and the ignorant took their places and went astray and led astray. Most muslims do not read the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures, giving lip service to a belief in the “original” versions, even though the Qur’an makes utterly clear that they were extant and sufficiently intact in the time of the Messenger. The ignorant, who took the places of the knowledgeable, declared the previous Revelations obsolete and reading them virtually a sin, and the muslims followed them in that. And although the Qur’an states without doubt or equivocation that we are mentioned in The Book given to the Children of Israel in Hebrew, only the muslims who are familiar with Islam and the history of the time of the Messenger ~ and who read the former Scripture ~ know that we are mentioned and described in almost every Book of the Bible.

    Dominion is the eternal burden and honor of the House of Israel ~ which today consists of a damned party that bought The Fire and is forever condemned to aspire to dominion over it, and a faithful party that followed Jesus and ministers to the ignorant and the faithful lost in The Fire, inviting them into His Eternal Kingdom which is among the followers of Jesus. The muslims share neither of those dominions, we are subject only to the dominion of The True King, God, and have no role to play in the dominion of the owners of The Fire or the dominion of the ministers of The Messiah, when there is no aggression of either against the other to invoke our duty to defend the faithful.

    It is the Evangelicals who do not grasp their own eschatology ~ they’re still waiting for events that occurred in history over a thousand years ago. Getting ready to fight as “soldiers of Christ” ~ which Jesus absolutely did not call upon us to become, but quite the opposite ~ and rule over the nations with an iron rod for a thousand years, giving no thought to what comes after that: that has been happening before their eyes for five centuries. Driven into cloistered internal exile from the very world into which Jesus and the Apostles sent the Disciples to minister, the world of His Dominions has passed them by.

  • http://www.bandofstrangers.org Jack Cope

    “And honestly, there is only so much hype, distortion and ignorance that I my Christian mind can tolerate from the links”

    Perhaps you understand how we Muslims feel at times Proverb… think that one through eh? Understanding, stepping back and listening does so much to fix the world…

    Jack

  • Proverb

    @ Inspired by Mohammad

    While I appreciate those links provided, none of them expound on Evangelical eschatology – they merely project their understanding of it.

    One article I found very interesting in its confusion was the one on “Christian Zionism”. The article itsself is full of inherently contradictory claims and evidences a lack of understanding of the subject matter.

    1. There is, in fact, a clear difference between Evangelicals, Pentecostals and Charismatics. The writer seems to confuse these groups and their eschatology – they share some views, but they sometimes differ as well. Hagee and Rick Joyner won’t agree fully on their eschatology…

    2. The writer seems ignorant of the Latter Rain doctrine amongst Pentecostals and Charismatics – which has Dominionism influence, as opposed to Pre-Millennial influence. Many of them do not expect a Tribulation as understood by Evangelicals. So, the writer, meanders in confusion lumping all assumptions together.

    3. You know a writer is talking hot air when anti-semitic motives are imposed on the late Derek Prince.

    4. One of the most astounding claims (that had me laughing at its absurdity and trust me the article contains many absurdities) is the claim about British Israelism. The most well-known eschatological view by British Iraelism is taught by Armstrong’s denomination… They aren’t on the same page as Evangelicals, Pentecostals or Charismatics on eschatology. The focus is on Germany (EU), the Catholic Church and Islam. As I read the publications by Armstrong’s Church often, I know the difference between their eschatology and that of, for example, Hagee (whose view I have grasped from his sermon series on the Last Days). Furthermore, political and atheistic British-Israelis (yes, they exist) are more British nationalist than religiously focused on any eschatology… The writer also fails to grasp that those who hold the Davidic Line teaching (and they are many, like Armstrongs denomination) have zero interest in Evagelical claims. For them, David’s descendant currently reigns in England and must continue to do so in ENGLAND – the Queen of England.

    5. It is also silly of the writer to claim that there is a common aim to convert Jews. Hagee (who the writer loves to refers to constantly in the article) is often criticised in Christian theological circles for preaching “TWO salvations”. One salvation for Gentiles through Christ and another salvation for Jews through the Law. So, conversion is not an aim for Hagee and many CUFI members….

    6. Look, you are free to rely on your links, if you wish. I could go on and on with regard to the Christian Zionism article and, I guess, all the others you provided, but I would be here the whole day. And honestly, there is only so much hype, distortion and ignorance that I my Christian mind can tolerate from the links…

    7. Just don’t be surprised when Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Charismatics and British Israelists look at you in a bizarre fashion and ask you which cult you belong to, when you try to explain their eschatology to them (as based on your article on Christian Zionism, for example). Having read parts of the Christian Zionism article, I now grasp WHY you’re so confused on Armageddon, Dominionism, etc.

    8. On “Pauline Christianity” – there is no Biblical support of any such claim. What Paul wrote (which we have in the Bible), was clearly called Scripture by the Aposlte Peter (in his letter, which is also in the Bible). Consequently, the so-called “Pauline Christianity” is also Peter’s Christianity, John’s Christianity, James’ Christianity, Matthews’ Christianity, Mark’s Christianity, Luke’s Christianity, etc. A rejection of Paul’s epistle is a rejection of Peter and all the Apostles of Jesus Christ. It is, therefore, a rejection of the Gospel of Christ.

    9. I will revert soon on the 2 questions you asked about Catholicim and support by Evangelicals for the Iraq war. Just pressed for time.

  • Proverb

    @ Stephen G. Parker

    My apologies on Spurgeon. You are 100% correct. He was Baptist (Reformed). It was, afterall, Spurgeon who was clear that the Jews would return to Israel and be gathered from exile in the latter days.

    On another note, I think you are confusing the issue regarding my comment on Dominionism. I stated in my comment that “Dominionism was never part of Evangelical Christianity (feel free to research), and is a recent development. Traditional Evangelicalism considers worldly governments “Caesar’s domain” or “Satan’s domain””.

    I did not elaborate on Post-Millennialism, for the simple reason that the prevailing and dominant eschatological view amongst Evangelicals is Pre-Millennial. This is a fact – not just in the USA (for I am not American), but around the globe. In ALL my experience in Evangelical circles, I have NEVER come across anyone who holds to Post-Millennialism (which would be regarded as a clear lack of understanding of Scripture), but I have come across plenty of Amelliannialists (who also believe there will be a Tribulation and Armageddon, BUT reject Preterism). Now, I suppose I could confuse Inspired by Mohammad further by elaborating on all these minority views and weird and wonderful theological phrases. But, it is mere hot air and is irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion. Afterall, exceptions do not make the rule (i.e. the minority Post-Millennialists). Evangelicals predominantly hold the view that there will be an Armageddon – that’s the primary premise of this discussion.

    While it is always interesting for Christians to throw around theological phrases like “Post-Millennialism”, “Preterist”, etc in the effort to explain eschatology to non-Christians, it is often unhelpful. It is always preferrable to unpack the SPECIFIC view raised. I also do not waste my time expounding on minority views in Evangelical circles, as they are not representative and only create more confusion amongst the already confused non-Christians, who get their “understanding” of “Christian” eschatology from a clueless US media.

    When all is said and done, I do not expect any Muslim here (including Inspired by Mohammad) to grasp Evangelical eschatology – despite the explanations provided. They rely on LoonWatch and US media reports on “Evangelicals” (as evidenced by the links Inspired by M has provided in one of his responses). From what I have picked up from the substance of various comments here, none of them read any material that is representative of the Evangelical understanding of Armageddon. Afterall, in grasping Hagee’s view on Aramageddon, all I had to do was watch his sermon series on the Last Days (with a clear explanatory timeline). I compare what he says in his sermon series to what US media claims he says and they might as well be talking about another Hagee.

    Take care.

  • http://www.inspiredbymohammed.com Inspired by Mohammad

    Turthseeker
    Hitler was was also very influential like Mohammad but he was also EVIL

    No, ignorant one. Hitler’s influence died in WW3, The Prophets influence lives on and grows. His followers benefitted humanity.

    But that wasn’t the question. You claim Jesus is God so a mere man like Mohammed cannot be more influential than God. Or if Jesus is God, and came to earth as man, he would be the most influential man today. But he is not.

    Epic fail ;)

  • http://www.inspiredbymohammed.com Inspired by Mohammad

    Proverb

    between US and Iraq prior to the Rapture. The war in Iraq does not feature in any prevailing Evangelical eschatology.

    No, i didn’t mean that. Regarding your point number 1 above, I know that war between US and Iraq or Iran is not necessary, I meant the war in Iraq, is part of their rapture/Armeggedon fixation on Israel and the Middle East for Jesus return. I will post links below. They oppose the peace process, and think Israel should reclaim all her Biblical terrirtory by force. They are in a nutshell, a fifth column and a threat to the USA.

    There is no such thing as “Pauline Christianity” and those that swallow this phrase do so ignorantly.

    I’m Muslim, and we do not believe in Paul as a Prophet. More as a distorter of the message Jesus brought ( I don’t mean to offend you) I understand you, (although some Christian denominations do agree that Paul distorted the messsage) disagree with this, so we can agree to disagree there. I also want to clarify something, to us, the differences that are important to you between yourself, as differing interpretations of Christianity are irrelevant, because all of you (except Ebionites) believe that Jesus is a trinity and Jesus is God. That means catholic or protestant is all the same to us, as Muslims, the belief is blasphemy. Hence we are arguing over semantics here.

    You see, your favourable statements regarding Catholics “today”

    I only mentioned Catholic because Santoroum is one, but I extend my positive views towards all Christian denominations that shun Crusades and pogroms and endless war. Including left wing Evangelicals. If you note above I said right wing Evangelicals, the CUFI crowd etc.

    When Hagee called the Catholic Church the “great whore”, he actually confirmed my claim that Evangelicals have no eschatology that supports wars with Iraq and Iran.

    But they do believe in the rapture. They do believe in endless war for the Middle East. They support Israel for the wrong reasons, because the Jews will fry for their Armeggedon, and those that don’t will convert,

    Two questions
    1. Just to understand your POV about Catholicism, what are your beliefs?
    2. Why do you think Evangelicals support/ed war in Iraq and now Iran?

    —————

    On the Road to Armageddon
    How evangelicals became Israel’s best friend

    http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/End-Times/On-The-Road-To-Armageddon.aspx
    Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/End-Times/On-The-Road-To-Armageddon.aspx#ixzz1ka7DP8UI

    ————

    Most Evangelical Leaders Still Support Iraq War
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/most-evangelical-leaders-still-support-iraq-war-31154/

    ————–

    Armageddon Lobby — trying to hurry up God –Its “Christian” Muscle
    http://www.iraqwar.org/ArmageddonUpdates.htm

    —————-

    http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/10/19/133852/88
    Top Ten Reasons Christian Zionism “Impairs Israel’s Interests”
    Rachel Tabachnick
    Christian Zionists talk openly about a “greater Israel” that consumes its neighbors and often provide graphic details of the slaughter of millions expected to accompany that territorial expansion. Christian Zionist literature is filled with extensive and explicit details of how Israel’s neighbors are to be destroyed including maps showing Israel extending from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates. In his 2001 book “The Battle for Jerusalem,” Hagee states on page 236, “In modern terms, Israel rightfully owns all of present-day Israel, all of Lebanon, half of Syria, two-thirds of Jordan, all of Iraq, and the northern portion of Saudi Arabia.”

    Christian Zionist end-time narratives typically depict efforts towards peace as evil, an expected tactic that the anti-Christ and his minions will use to bring about a totalitarian world government. Christian Zionists exclude the possibility that Mideast conflict will ever be resolved by anything other than apocalyptic violence; in this view, there will never be a human peace for Jews or Israel.

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