Brigitte Gabriel
Right-wing Christianity’s favorite self-hating racist, Hanan Tudor, a.k.a Brigitte Gabriel has been making a killing through her anti-Islam organization “ACT! For America,” also better known as Hate! for America.
Not too long ago she was at the Cornerstone Church in Nashville, Tennessee, (yes, the same church that hosted European fascist Geert Wilders) participating in the “anti-Shariah Conference.” You can watch the video yourself here.
As you can see Gabriel is up to her usual gimmick, fear-mongering about the deadly and dire “Islamization of the USA,” which is supposedly happening right under the patriotic noses of: good, wholesome, real Americans! According to her the Muslims are being aided in this anti-American endeavor by the liberals who wish nothing more than to see America destroyed!
She says at the 6:00 minute mark about the “Liberal-Islamic axis of evil”:
They’re doing exactly what Hitler did. What did Hitler say, what did Hitler do? “Give me the children and I’ll change society in ten years.”
Really? The Hitler card? Isn’t that played out by now?
Cornerstone Church has a history of giving a platform to this sort of anti-Islam and anti-Muslim propaganda. I won’t be surprised if one of its congregants believes he/she has to take out the Muslims before they take over, or perhaps a la cultural-Christian-Templar-Knight-Terrorist Anders Breivik, take out the liberals who are facilitating the so-called “demise of the USA.”
*********************
While Brigitte Gabriel’s reputation has been severely discredited and she is unable to get the kind of access that she was accustomed to in the past she is still able to weasel her way at times into the mainstream.
Such was the case recently in an article written by Frida Ghatis for McClatchy Newspapers and which was picked up by the Miami Herald, Sacramento Bee and several other papers. Ghatis’ article was titled, Truly Revolutionary: Arabs Speaking Well of Israel.
The piece is pro-Israel propaganda through-and-through and while maintaining a veneer of objectivity it degrades the successes of the Arab Spring and revolves around the not-so-hidden thesis that a real revolution in the Arab world would be one in which Arabs “speak well of Israel.” No explanation is given of why many Arabs are anti-Israel (i.e. occupation, apartheid, discrimination, war crimes, the bombing of Arab countries, etc.).
Instead the focus is: will Arabs finally love Israel and say nice things about it. All pretense to objectivity is dropped when we come to this sentence:
Pro-Israel Arabs, Muslims, and former Muslims who use their real names are usually people living safely in the West, such as Lebanon’s Brigitte Gabriel, Somalia’s Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Egypt’s Tawfik Hamid, or Canada’s Irshad Manji.
We have covered all of the loons mentioned above by Ghatis. If Ghatis was willing to do a basic search on Gabriel she would realize that Gabriel doesn’t even consider herself an Arab! In fact, Gabriel believes Arabs have no soul!:
The difference, my friends, between Israel and the Arab world is the difference between civilization and barbarism. It’s the difference between good and evil [applause]…. this is what we’re witnessing in the Arabic world, They have no SOUL!, they are dead set on killing and destruction. And in the name of something they call “Allah” which is very different from the God we believe….[applause] because our God is the God of love.
One can see why Ghatis would be so enthusiastic about Gabriel, she really speaks so “well” of Israel.
February 9th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Gah that face scares me
who is even listening to her?? I disagree with people, but that is not the same as genocide
February 9th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
@Emperor,
Looks Like Bridget and Geller are competing for the title of queen of Islamophobic fear mongering.
February 9th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Is this woman being paid? That would explain this.
February 9th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
Adolf Hitler and the Nazis have more in common with Geert Wilders and the PVV than “Muslims and Leftists.” Change the Dutch Constitution (Article 1) to strip Muslims of religious freedom is like What Hitler and the Nazis did to German Jews in revoking their citizenship. Need I go on…Just try me and I will.
Destroy America?
What rubbish!
This other side is anti-democratic and anti-freedom. They seem to think they can pick and choose what parts of the Constitution they don’t like, like not having a religious test for office. “Muslims and Leftists” won’t have freedom of speech and would have freedom of movement restricted, like not being able to use airline travel that to others are free to use. “Muslims and Leftists” would be on watchlists and there should be heavy surveillance against them. Since Europe would go along with this kind of oppressive “Amerika” – there will NO place to run to.
It’s not us, Muslims and Leftists, who want to destroy America, but those who believe that there is too much freedom for “Muslims and Leftists.”
What it actually is a dispute about what America should look like, contested national identity. What we want America to look like is a whole lot better for peace, security and freedom than what the Islamophobes want, which is a lot more like Hitler and the Nazis!
February 9th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
@Susie
Yes, she’s well paid:
“Her salary from two organizations she founded, American Congress for Truth and ACT! for America, was $178,411 in 2009. And the group’s combined income was $1.6 million.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/us/08gabriel.html?pagewanted=all
February 9th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
> “The piece is pro-Israel propaganda through-and-through and while maintaining a veneer of objectivity it degrades the successes of the Arab Spring and revolves around the not-so-hidden thesis that a real revolution in the Arab world would be one in which Arabs “speak well of Israel.” ”
Lol, that’s good one. Why will the Arab revolutionaries ever “speak well” of the Jewish state, when it’s oppressing and persecuting a portion of their own people, and it’s out to get them at every corner, and is doing everything in it’s power to stamp on their progress for their future?. Because that’s not the way friends act, that’s the way enemies act. — So on the contrary, now that they got their God giving freedom back, from dictators precisely the Jewish state supported and contributed in oppressing them, and have the capabilities finally to use their voices, and speak-up to protest both the injustices of Palestinians and their own, they will finally tighten the screws on those who claim leading the Jewish state that dictators let loose for decades, and through that hopefully, the Israeli people themselves will be saved from the psychopaths and warmongers that governs them. This after all could be a fresh beginning for both people, if the power of the people is well applied of course.
February 9th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
ohhhhhhh God
Susies comment depressed me……sheeeeeeesh we really have a long way to go to educate people…..
Let’s raise $100million,…..and put these Islamophobes out of business
February 9th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
@eslaporte,
Of Course Bridget and people like her would insist that such changes to the constitution would be necessary to protect us from the evil of Muslims and leftists. Give me a a break. I’m sorry I ever took her seriously, and believed anything she said.
February 9th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
@ Ilisha
“Her salary from two organizations she founded, American Congress for Truth and ACT! for America, was $178,411 in 2009. And the group’s combined income was $1.6 million.”
and to think, all that money could have been used to feed starving children all over the world
February 9th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
U.S. marines posed with Nazi symbol in Afghanistan, officials confirm:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1128744–u-s-marines-posed-with-nazi-symbol-in-afghanistan
February 9th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
@Arman, SO not helping our image in the world
February 9th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
…nothing more than a self-hating Arab…
February 9th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
Thanks for the tip Arman.
February 9th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Gabriel is a profoundly stupid bigot and needs to be debunked much in the same manner as Walid Shoebat was.
Same goes for ACT! For America as well. Islamophobia needs to be driven underground.
February 9th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
And again the Hitler comparison.
February 9th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
> “Adolf Hitler and the Nazis have more in common with Geert Wilders and the PVV than “Muslims and Leftists.””
@eslaporte, you sure are right, but unfortunately the world of right-wing nut-cases is a world of up side down. I swear, those nut-jobs are not speaking from their mouths, but behinds. Or else how is’t explainable that while they’re the ones working so hard calling for the freedom of a religious minority group to be taking away, which is precisely how Hitler and Nazis behaved, and in the same breath, audaciously accusing of “acting Nazis” the very people they’re calling for their repression?. Which Muslim or “Leftist” in the West is calling for the freedom of Christians or “Rightists” to be restricted?. — Is like this psychopath Wilders, I’ll bet he gets his main inspiration from Hitler’s “memoirs” (Mein Kampf), I’m sure he sees himself as the next Hitler, to get rid of Muslims from the West. In Mein Kampf, Hitler uses as main thesis, “the Jewish peril”, which speaks of Jewish conspiracy to gain “world domination”, now can any “Rightist” deny that this is exactly Wilders thoughts on Muslims?.
February 9th, 2012 at 5:15 pm
“It’s the difference between good and evil [applause]”
These loons do seem to like things to be black and white, don’t they? I guess they don’t have to think so hard.
February 9th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
The statement I am about to quote is a massive lie, I assume it is by Frida Ghatis?
“She claims: Pro-Israel Arabs, Muslims, and former Muslims who use their real names are usually people living safely in the West, such as Lebanon’s Brigitte Gabriel, Somalia’s Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Egypt’s Tawfik Hamid, or Canada’s Irshad Manji.”
That is a boldface lie. A poll taken by the Truman Institute found that 63% of the Arab citizens accepted the principle that Israel is the state of the Jewish people.
Furthermore, In a 2004 survey by Sammy Smooha of the University of Haifa Jewish-Arab Center, 84.9% of Israeli Arabs stated that Israel has a right to exist as an independent state, and 70% that it has a right to exist as a democratic, Jewish state
http://blog.shalomsalaam.net/post/11195819935/in-a-2004-survey-conducted-by-professor-sammy-smooha-of
I will link the first poll if I can find a source that doesn’t give my computer a virus. I tried clicking on one source where the poll was mentioned but my virus protection blocked it.
But anyway both polls can be found on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Surveys_and_Polls
“One can see why Ghatis would be so enthusiastic about Gabriel, she really speaks so “well” of Israel.”
Brigitte Gabriel may love Israel but she hates Jews. She is an Anti-Semite as Omar Baddar details in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NrNXgd-_oY
I suspect her love for Israel is derived from her greater hatred of Muslims.
February 9th, 2012 at 6:40 pm
> “That is a boldface lie. A poll taken by the Truman Institute found that 63% of the Arab citizens accepted the principle that Israel is the state of the Jewish people.”
Listen I know you probably meant well, and I do not know what you mean by “accepted the principle”, as the land first and foremost is STOLEN through aggression from their own people, but she’s talking about being “Pro”, and most definitely Arab ordinary citizens are not “Pro”… 92 to 95% of Arab Middle-Easterners think of the “Jewish” state as their number 2 threat to their safety and security, only second to the US empire… and that same percentage supports Iran to develop nuclear weapon for balance in the region.
February 9th, 2012 at 6:57 pm
@Geji,
I wasn’t taking about Arab Middle-Easterners now was I, Geji? I was talking about the ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL (also known as ISRAELI ARABS). Maybe you should read what I say before jumping to conclusions.
Once again,
That is a boldface lie. A poll taken by the Truman Institute found that 63% of the Arab citizens accepted the principle that Israel is the state of the Jewish people.
Furthermore, In a 2004 survey by Sammy Smooha of the University of Haifa Jewish-Arab Center, 84.9% of Israeli Arabs stated that Israel has a right to exist as an independent state, and 70% that it has a right to exist as a democratic, Jewish state
Arab citizens of Israel are pro-Israel.
February 9th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
“Brigitte Gabriel” is way too stupid to come up with these things. I say the rich white guy that writes her shit for her should come forward and show his cowardly face.
February 9th, 2012 at 7:56 pm
nothing was stolen, Mr Géji you mean reclaimed. Jews and Israel are inseparable, and Jews were absorbed into Israel leaving behind billions in property and assets, yet Palestinians are still living in camps and treated like second class citizens by Arabs. Who stole what? Arabs rejected the land they were offered choosing instead to destroy the fledgling state of Israel.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137129
A new book shows in detail how the Qur’an (Koran) and Islamic tradition actually uphold the Divine nature of the bonds between the Land of Israel and the Jewish People.
New Book: Qur’an Backs Jewish Claims to Land of Israel
A new book shows in detail how the Qur’an (Koran) and Islamic tradition actually affirm links between Jews and the Land of Israel.
“You will find very clearly,” says Sheikh Dr Muhammad Al-Husseini, “that the traditional commentators from the eighth and ninth century onwards have uniformly interpreted the Koran to say explicitly that Eretz Yisrael has been given by God to the Jewish people as a perpetual covenant. There is no Islamic counterclaim to the Land anywhere in the traditional corpus of commentary.”
Dr Al-Husseini is a British imam who teaches a course on the Koran as part of interfaith studies at the Leo Baeck College, the Progressive rabbinic college in Finchley, north London. One of the texts he has taught is the following verse in the Koran (5:21), “O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has decreed for you, and turn back on your heels otherwise you will be overturned as losers.”
He examines this passage through the eyes of one classic commentator of the Koran, Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923), who says the remark is “a narrative from God… concerning the saying of Moses… to his community from among the children of Israel and his order to them according to the order of God to him, ordering them to enter the holy land.”
Al-Tabari, Dr Al-Husseni says, is “our Rashi”, the founder of tafsir, “the science of exegesis” — the Arabic word is similar to pesher, Hebrew for interpretation. “One of the key rules of Islamic exegesis by which Islamic scholarship is bound is that the authority to interpret lies in the hands of the Prophet and of the Prophets’ Companions alone,” he says, “Nobody can go to the text and just freely interpret the text for their own purposes. This is really important… because if the Prophet, or one of his Companions, has given an interpretation, then we are bound by it.”
February 9th, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Today’s Nazis are more clever than yesterday’s Nazis. Today’s Nazis often publicly DENOUNCE Hitler and “fascism”, while at the same time promoting the same fascistic ideas that led to the rise of Hilter and the Nazis themselves….
February 9th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Derry man admits 200lb Strand Road car bomb charges
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16971270
Derry man admits 200lb Strand Road car bomb charges
Police at bomb scene A number of businesses were damaged in the explosion
A 43-year-old Londonderry man has admitted a car bomb attack at the city’s Strand Road PSNI Station.
No-one was injured in the August 2010 bombing, claimed by dissident republicans Oglaigh na hEireann, but several businesses were badly damaged.
Philip O’Donnell, of Baldrick Crescent, pleaded guilty to causing an explosion likely to endanger life.
O’Donnell also admitted hijacking the taxi containing the 200lb device and falsely imprisoning the taxi driver.
Further charges he pleaded guilty to were belonging to or “professing to belong” to Oglaigh na hEireann and two further charges of attempted hijacking in the two days before the attack.
At Belfast Crown Court, Judge Tom Burgess adjourned passing sentence until pre-sentence probation reports have been compiled and also until the case against O’Donnell’s co-accused is completed.
Martin McLoone, 23, from Abercorn Road in Derry, is in custody awaiting trial as he maintains his not guilty pleas to the charges.
============
Another story that will not make the main pages since the skin color of the guy is not dark enough
February 9th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
LOL Pot meet kettle
February 9th, 2012 at 9:01 pm
> “I wasn’t taking about Arab Middle-Easterners now was I, Geji? I was talking about the ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL (also known as ISRAELI ARABS). Maybe you should read what I say before jumping to conclusions.”
Leave the insolence aside before deciding to type, but anyhoo, you’re the one who’s off track here, she’s not talking about Palestinian Arabs living under the “Jewish” state, but Arabs and Muslims in general. I don’t even know how you took she’s meaning “ISRAELI ARABS[sic]“, but even so, the majority of Palestinian Arabs leaving under the Jewish state do not support the religious oriented “Jewish” state, but are demanding a full, secular democratic state where they don’t have to live as second class citizens, which precisely what they are now. So maybe you should read the article where you’re commenting before once again “jumping the gun”.
February 9th, 2012 at 9:19 pm
@IlanReiber, take you’re zionist and rubbish propaganda elsewhere mate, [snipped]
February 9th, 2012 at 10:12 pm
@Geji
Our dear Geji fails reading comprehension once again.
The quote which I claimed was a boldface lie was: “She claims: Pro-Israel Arabs, Muslims, and former Muslims who use their real names are usually people living safely in the West,”
Now are pro-Israel Arabs who use their real names usually living safely in the West? Hell no! They are living in Israel as the two polls I mentioned showed.
Then our dear Geji claims that land (Israel) was stolen from the Palestinians. Yet our dear Geji refuses to state that that land in question was stolen from the Byzantines by the Muslims and that the patriarch Sophronius surrendered to the Rashidun caliph Umar. That land has been stolen several times throughout history.
So Geji you also fail history. Tisk…tisk.
February 9th, 2012 at 10:13 pm
@Ilisha I knew it, this is the first time I heard about her and like the other hatemongers, she is making mad money.
February 9th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
I don’t even think these people even actually believe that Muslims are evil. They just want that money!
February 9th, 2012 at 10:29 pm
Huh…I was going to say gaybriel and the others engaged in projectionism, accusing others of being nazis when its actually becoming the nazis, but everyone beat me to it. So I’ll say I could get behind legislation that would make it manditory that brigette gabriel has to wear a bag over her head at all times.
February 9th, 2012 at 11:00 pm
More evidence that this statement: “Pro-Israel Arabs, Muslims, and former Muslims who use their real names are usually people living safely in the West, such as Lebanon’s Brigitte Gabriel, Somalia’s Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Egypt’s Tawfik Hamid, or Canada’s Irshad Manji.’
Is a lie!
“Seventy-seven percent of the State of Israel’s Arab citizens would rather live in the Jewish state than in any other country in the world, according to a new study titled “Coexistence in Israel”.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3559045,00.html
So do Pro-Israel Arabs usually live in the West? Nope, they live in Israel as well.
This doesn’t mean that Pro-Israel Arabs do not live in the West, but they also live in Israel and that quote (I assume by Ghatis) should’ve mentioned this.
February 10th, 2012 at 4:27 am
Mr Géji, which part of that was ‘Zionist propoganda?’ R u telling me the Koran is a lie? Jewish Israel is affirmed in your Koran, and that Israel will be reborn and that Allah gave it to Jews, and that is why Arabs who keep seeking to destroy Israel, fail. What do you base your Anti Zionism on?
What The Qur’an Say About Israel
February 10th, 2012 at 8:21 am
IlanReiber: you forgot the fact that the land is Allah’s and it is for him to give and take. How about the golden calf you worshipped that Allah wasn’t too happy about? How about your killing of the prophets that is mentioned in the Quran? If you stop cherry picking you will read exactly what Allah thinks about the children of Israel. Hint: it has something to do with la’anah (curse)
February 10th, 2012 at 8:30 am
off topic, does anyone have any reactions from the anti-muslim movement on marines in afghanistan posing with the SS flag?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/groups-outraged-by-marines-posing-with-logo-resembling-nazi-ss-want-new-probe-troops-punished/2012/02/10/gIQAFepv3Q_story.html
February 10th, 2012 at 11:30 am
@llanReiber,
You are not alone in thinking that way. You have support from many Muslims actually, they are known as the Muslim Zionists.
You have the backing of many Islamic scholars and thinkers. One is Khaleel Mohammaed who claims that “the Quran never mentions Jerusalem as a holy city, and added, “It’s in the Muslim consciousness that the land first belonged to the Jews. It doesn’t matter if the Jews were exiled 500 years or 2000 years, the Holy Land, as mentioned in Quran belongs to Moses and his people, the Jews.”
Another is Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi who wrote an article for Tablet Magzine titled, “Allah Is a Zionist.”
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/28575/allah-is-a-zionist/
I on the other hand am I vehement supporter of the two-state solution and don’t believe ALL of the holy land belongs exclusively to the Jews. I believed some of that land has to be shared with the Arabs if we want peace in the region.
February 10th, 2012 at 2:08 pm
@IlanReiber
“A new book shows in detail how the Qur’an (Koran) and Islamic tradition actually affirm links between Jews and the Land of Israel.”
“‘You will find very clearly,’ says Sheikh Dr Muhammad Al-Husseini, ‘that the traditional commentators from the eighth and ninth century onwards have uniformly interpreted the Koran to say explicitly that Eretz Yisrael has been given by God to the Jewish people as a perpetual covenant.”
Who the hell is Sheikh Dr Muhammad Al-Husseini? Anyway, the Quran doesn’t say that the land of Israel was perpetually given to the Jews (or anyone else). All land belongs to God. The Quran says:
7:128 Moses said to his people: “Seek help with God, and be patient; for the land is God’s. He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the victory belongs to the righteous.”
When the Jews were being oppressed in Egypt, God gave them Israel (not in perpetuity). The Quran says:
7:137 We let the people who were oppressed inherit the east and the west of the land which We have blessed, and good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel. For they were patient, and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.
Notice that the Quran says that the land belongs to God, not Israelis or Arabs. God is not a divine real estate agent! Note that when the Jewish king Dhu Nawas oppressed the Christians of Najran, God made the Christians victorious. And when the Jews of Medina oppressed the Muslims, God made the Muslims victorious. The Quran says:
33:27 He made you inherit their land, their homes, their money, and lands you had never stepped on. GOD is in full control of all things.
When the Arabs oppressed the Jews in Israel, God made the Jews victorious. Now that the Jews are oppressing the Arabs in Israel, they shouldn’t think that they will be victorious (because they think they have some kind of perpetual real estate contract with God).
“Dr Al-Husseini is a British imam who teaches a course on the Koran as part of interfaith studies at the Leo Baeck College, the Progressive rabbinic college in Finchley, north London.”
He teaches a course at a rabbinical college? No conflict of interest there!
“One of the texts he has taught is the following verse in the Koran (5:21), ‘O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has decreed for you, and turn back on your heels otherwise you will be overturned as losers.’”
How did he get a perpetual real estate deal from that verse?
“He examines this passage through the eyes of one classic commentator of the Koran, Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (838-923), who says the remark is ‘a narrative from God… concerning the saying of Moses… to his community from among the children of Israel and his order to them according to the order of God to him, ordering them to enter the holy land.’”
How did he get a perpetual real estate deal from that commentary?
“Al-Tabari, Dr Al-Husseni says, is ‘our Rashi’, the founder of tafsir, ‘the science of exegesis’ — the Arabic word is similar to pesher, Hebrew for interpretation.”
We don’t have any Rashis in Islam. Indeed, the Quran tells us that self-appointed scholars often lead people away from the path of god:
9:34 O you who acknowledge, many of the scholars and priests consume people’s money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God. Those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
“‘One of the key rules of Islamic exegesis by which Islamic scholarship is bound is that the authority to interpret lies in the hands of the Prophet and of the Prophets’ Companions alone,’ he says, ‘Nobody can go to the text and just freely interpret the text for their own purposes.”
That’s not a key rule of Islamic exegesis. . . and I just interpreted the text freely (see above). So there!
February 10th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
@Michael Elwood,
Michael I say this with all due respect, but these two statements that you made are just so absurd
Again I don’t mean any disrespect over this comment.
“Note that when the Jewish king Dhu Nawas oppressed the Christians of Najran, God made the Christians victorious. And when the Jews of Medina oppressed the Muslims, God made the Muslims victorious”
And
“When the Arabs oppressed the Jews in Israel, God made the Jews victorious. Now that the Jews are oppressing the Arabs in Israel, they shouldn’t think that they will be victorious (because they think they have some kind of perpetual real estate contract with God).”
So God, makes armies victorious and God tends to be on the side of the oppressed people/army? ROTFL.
The oppressed people were the Native-Americans, yet “God,” made the oppressor i.e., the colonizers victorious and those very same colonizers have compressed the Native Americans into reservations.
The oppressed people were the indigenous people of Patagonia yet God made Julio Argentino Roca victorious establishing the dominance of Argentina over Patagonia resulting in the death of 1300 indigenous people.
God made the Russians victories over the Muslim Circassians, the latter being ethnically cleansed from their own land. See Russian-Circassian War. The Russians were expansionists and imperialists and the Circassians weren’t.
Allah did not come to the aid of the Circassian Muslims and 90% of them now live in other countries, I believe.
Then you say the Arabs will be victorious in Israel. The Arabs will never achieve victory militarily (they have shoddy armies) hence it is best to resort to diplomacy and negotiation.
February 10th, 2012 at 2:57 pm
@llanReiber – I doubt any “non’ or “anti”-Zionist Christian or Muslim will deny that God granted Palestine to the Israelite people (descendants of Jacob/Israel) under Moses and Joshua (which is what the passages in Suras 5 and 7 referred to). What we say is that today’s Zionists fail to take into account what Moses, the Hebrew Prophets (including Jesus), and the Qur’an given to Muhammad (peace be with all of those Prophets) have to say about the conditions laid upon the descendants of Jacob in order for them to continue to have any claim to “the land”. The Israelites’ claim to the land was not based simply on their genetic descent from Jacob, but rather on their being faithful to “the faith” of Abraham, and keeping God’s covenant.
Consider the “blessings” and “curses” Moses himself enumerated in Deuteronomy 28-30. If the Israelites were unfaithful to God, God would “curse” everything to do with them and drive them out of the land. Then if they turned back to the LORD, God would bring them back into the land. But so long as the majority of Israelites are unbelieving and unfaithful, they do not have any claim at all to the land. From the perspective of Christians and Muslims – and also of such Orthodox Jews as Neturei Karta – the Israelites of today are still in unbelief and unfaithful, and so cannot claim the land as their “Divine right”.
There were two major ‘deportations’ prophesied by the Hebrew Prophets. The first culminated in the “Babylonian captivity”, prophesied for instance by Isaiah and Jeremiah. The second was Prophesied by Daniel – as the Babylonian captivity was about to end – in Daniel 9:24-27. From the time when Cyrus issued the decree for the Jews to return to Judea and Jerusalem (about 2 years after Daniel gave this prophecy) there would be 70 ‘sevens’ of years. During the 70th “seven”, Messiah the Prince would be introduced to Israel, and would be “cut off” in the middle of that “seven”. As a result of the rejection by Israel of their Messiah, a prince (Titus) would come with his people (the Roman army) and bring complete desolation to the city and Temple. This would be a “decreed end” to the national pretensions of Israel.
The Prophet Jesus said that as a result of the Jewish people’s continual rejection of their Prophets (including himself), the kingdom of God would be taken away from them and given to another people. This has been fulfilled. The Roman army was the instrument of God to remove the Jews as the “cornerstone” in God’s kingdom; and the kingdom was eventually given to another nation – the great nation God had promised through the seed of Ishmael – which has been faithful in bringing forth the fruit of God’s kingdom.
God’s rejection of the Jews who rejected His messages and Prophets is mentioned in the Qur’an in such places as 3:55 and 56 (Abdel Haleem English version) – “God said, ‘Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding your differences, I will make the disbelievers suffer severely in this world and the next; no one will help them’”.
Sura 17:4-8 speaks specifically of the two major periods of disobedience and destruction in the history of the Jews. The first destruction was accomplished by the Babylonians; the second by the Romans. In verse 8, the hope is given that God may yet have mercy on the Jewish people; but the warning remains that if they turn their backs on Him again, He will also reject them again.
Because the Jewish nation was removed from its “cornerstone” position in God’s kingdom (and consequently deprived of their land) because of their rejection of God’s Prophets (particularly that final Jewish Prophet and Messiah, Jesus), they cannot conceivably be considered eligible for restoration until they have repented of their rejection of the Prophets – including both Jesus and Muhammad. Submission to God’s message delivered through those two Prophets is required in the concept of ‘returning to the LORD’. In other words, Jews must embrace “Islam”; their Judaism is not complete until they do so. That, at least, is the Qur’anic perspective.
So it’s not enough to refer to verses that say that God led the Israelites under Joshua to inherit a “promised land”. One must take into account the covenant requirements of the Jewish people, and the “curse” of God on that people because of their covenant unfaithfulness. If there is any hope for the Jews to “reclaim” their land, it is only as “Muslims” (those who are devotedly submissive to God and ALL of His Prophets) that such a hope will be fulfilled. And if the Jewish people do return to the LORD, they will not be dispossessing and murdering others of God’s devotees who belong to a different ethnicity.
February 10th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Sumbowdy, yes that generation was punished, but how long did calf worship last? Did Allah curse all Ishmaelites because Ishmaelites lapsed into idol worship and female child burial for so many centuries? The ingathering was unconditional, not conditional upon Israel’s sins. Am Yisrael Chai.
Michael Elwood, Israel never was a reward for good behaviour as you are implying, and by what standards? Why does the Koran state that Allah punished Jews for refusing to fight the inhabitants of Canaan?
“Do not make a treaty with these nations… Do not allow them to reside in your land, since they may then make you sin to Me.”
Shemot
(Exodus) 23:32-33
“You must drive out the land’s inhabitants ahead of you… Clear out the land and live in it, since it is to you that I am giving you the land to occupy… But if you do not drive out the land’s inhabitants before you, those who remain shall be barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, causing you trouble in the land that you settle. I will then do to you what I originally planned to do to them.”
Bamidvar
(Numbers) 33:52-56
February 10th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
@Believing Atheist
“Michael I say this with all due respect, but these two statements that you made are just so absurd Again I don’t mean any disrespect over this comment.”
“So God, makes armies victorious and God tends to be on the side of the oppressed people/army? ROTFL.”
No disrespect, Believing Atheist, but that’s your interpolation. I implied that God is on the side of the oppressed, and that He will make them victorious. I don’t know what made you assume victory can only be achieved militarily.
By the way, if it’s that easy to have you rolling on the floor laughing, you’d make an ideal audience member for a comedy club.
“The oppressed people were the Native-Americans, yet “God,” made the oppressor i.e., the colonizers victorious and those very same colonizers have compressed the Native Americans into reservations.”
“The oppressed people were the indigenous people of Patagonia yet God made Julio Argentino Roca victorious establishing the dominance of Argentina over Patagonia resulting in the death of 1300 indigenous people.”
That’s an oversimplification. Many native nations were and are victorious over their oppressors. And many Native Americans have become quite successful (both on and off the reservation). Unfortunately, sometimes the oppressed can become the oppressor. For example, take the case of the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Seminole, and Chickasaw Freedman.
“God made the Russians victories over the Muslim Circassians, the latter being ethnically cleansed from their own land. See Russian-Circassian War. The Russians were expansionists and imperialists and the Circassians weren’t.”
“Allah did not come to the aid of the Circassian Muslims and 90% of them now live in other countries, I believe.”
You’re too hasty, Believing Atheist. Victory doesn’t come overnight. How many generations were there from Joseph to Moses? How many generations are there between me and my slave ancestors? Take a guess. . .
“Then you say the Arabs will be victorious in Israel. The Arabs will never achieve victory militarily (they have shoddy armies) hence it is best to resort to diplomacy and negotiation.”
Again, that’s your interpolation. The Palestinians themselves will choose rather to achieve their goals militarily or non-militarily (or a combination thereof). Malcolm X and Dr. Abdullah Abdurahman achieved their goals non-militarily. The Palestinians may or may not choose to follow their example. There is no cookie cutter way to achieve a goal.
3:140 If you suffer hardship, the enemy also suffers the same hardship. We alternate the days of victory and defeat among the people. GOD thus distinguishes the true believers, and blesses some of you with martyrdom. GOD dislikes injustice.
@IlanReiber
Again, the Quran is clear. All land belongs to God. And He lets whoever he wills inherit it:
7:128 Moses said to his people: “Seek help with God, and be patient; for the land is God’s. He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the victory belongs to the righteous.”
And no one has a perpetual real estate deal with God:
7:100 Does it ever occur to those who inherit the earth after previous generations that, if we will, we can punish them for their sins, and seal their hearts, causing them to turn deaf?
February 10th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Sir Stephen writes: Because the Jewish nation was removed from its “cornerstone” position in God’s kingdom (and consequently deprived of their land) because of their rejection of God’s Prophets (particularly that final Jewish Prophet and Messiah, Jesus), they cannot conceivably be considered eligible for restoration until they have repented of their rejection of the Prophets – including both Jesus and Muhammad.
The “Jewish nation” was restored to Jerusalem after the Battle of Yarmuk, August 20-21, 636 a.d., near where the River Yarmuk flowed past Har Meggido, when the Byzantine army, augmented by the cavalries of the Ghassanids, was utterly destroyed in a literal river of blood. ‘Umar returned seventy Jewish families to Jerusalem after liberating The Promised Land from the Roman/Byzantine (Trinitarian) occupation, restoring to those families their ancestral homes, properties, and holy places. Thereafter, until World War I, they governed themselves by their own Law, in their respective communities, and were protected by the muslims, just as were the Christians who rejected the false messiah of the Talmud as embraced by imperial Rome, who had been driven into exile by the Romans and kept from their holy places by the Byzantines.
The “Jewish nation,” in other words, was restored for over a thousand years in the Millennial Kingdom that bore the fruits of the Kingdom. Then the false Sanhedrin returned to Palestine to break the peace.
Submission to God’s message delivered through those two Prophets is required in the concept of ‘returning to the LORD’. In other words, Jews must embrace “Islam”; their Judaism is not complete until they do so. That, at least, is the Qur’anic perspective.
The People of the Book need only return to the Book to “return to the Lord.” This is explicit in the Qur’an. Should some of original Israel recognize, acknowledge, and follow their Messiah Jesus, then they join Messianic Israel, the second stage of Judaism. Should some of them recognize, acknowledge, and follow the Messenger of the Covenant Muhammad, then they join the muslims, the third state of Judaism, completing their Judaism and fulfilling the Law of Moses. But they only need to return to the Book to “return to the Lord.”
February 11th, 2012 at 3:58 am
HajJ Dawud:When are you going to understand that Mohammad was never a prophet sent by God of Abrahm ,Isaac and Jacob?He was just a god father of Arabia who wore the cloak of prophethood.Unfortunately,you are too blind to see that.
February 11th, 2012 at 7:32 am
Anyone hear a dog barking ?
February 11th, 2012 at 9:42 am
How interesting to see Sir Stephen and Hajj Dawud arguing over Judaism.
Sir Stephen says, “they cannot conceivably be considered eligible for restoration until they have repented of their rejection of the Prophets” and “their Judaism is not complete until they do so.”
Hajj Dawud talks of “the false messiah of the Talmud” and of “the third state of Judaism, completing their Judaism and fulfilling the Law of Moses.”
There was another thread in which the question of why Jews may feel uncomfortable on sites like Loonwatch. Perhaps once we repent, reject false teachings (not even sure what was being referred to in that quote), and “complete” our Judaism, things may be different.
In all seriousness, if the goal of Loonwatch is to point out and argue how certain people vilify Islam by, for example, arguing that Muslims must “repent” of certain beliefs and remove them from the religion so as to make it more correct, or shall we say “complete,” these type of comments don’t gain you any allies.
February 11th, 2012 at 11:35 am
Sir David write: Anyone hear a dog barking ?
I thought I heard a lap dog yipping, but it was only coughing up a hair ball. Must think it’s a cat.
February 11th, 2012 at 11:37 am
Just Stopping By writes: … these type of comments don’t gain you any allies.
I’m not interested in allies, I have One.
February 11th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
@Hajj Dawud says, “I’m not interested in allies…” My mistake then. I thought that knowing other nations and tribes would involve being friends and allies with them when possible.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
@Just Stopping By,
Don’t lament, you still have me as your friend and ally.
February 11th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
( for those of you slow on the uptake eg halalpork/truthseeker Hajji Dawud is not talking about me
)
February 11th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
@Just Stopping By
You have many friends and allies here. Loonwatch is a non-partisan, secular website, and everyone is welcome.
Also, as I have mentioned before, I really appreciate your contributions.
February 11th, 2012 at 2:11 pm
@ “Just Stopping By” – You should note that I was responding to “Ilan Reiber”, who was claiming that the Qur’an promotes “Zionist” beliefs about a perpetual right to Palestine – and thus supports the vicious atrocities of the Zionists in stealing Palestine from the Palestinians (though he would not call it “stealing” of course).
My response sought to show that not only does the Qur’an not support the claims of the Zionist “synagogue of Satan”, but not even their own Jewish Scriptures support them – and neither do the Christian Scriptures. These current “Zionists” are among those who draw near to God with their lips (those who aren’t atheist or agnostic, at least), but their hearts are far from Him. All of the “Abrahamic” Scriptures proclaim that they have no “Divine right” to Palestine.
I also mentioned that there are anti-Zionist Jews who acknowledge this fact – mentioning Neturei Karta in particular. They certainly believe in a future true restoration (in righteousness and godliness under a still-to-come Messiah) of the Jewish people to the land; but they deny that the present ugly situation even comes close to that restoration.
As to Hajj Dawud’s statement, I don’t consider that he was arguing with me – if that’s what you meant. While I don’t know him personally, I still think of him as a friend; and I value his comments. In this case, I may have overstated what it means (from the perspective of the Qur’an) for the Jewish people to return to the LORD; and I appreciate Hajj Dawud’s pointing out the ‘three-stage’ approach to complete Judaism.
I find a bit exaggerated his idea that the invitation by Umar (peace and blessing be with him) for 70 Jewish families to live in Jerusalem constitutes the restoration of the “Jewish nation” to the land. I’m pretty sure such an idea won’t meet with acceptance by anyone of a Zionist persuasion!
Nevertheless, I believe there is at least some truth to it. This invitation showed that there is nothing “anti-Semitic” about Islam, and Jews and Muslims (and Christians) can live together in peace in Palestine – as they did for the most part for over 1200 or 1300 years. If I’m not mistaken, the Christian Crusaders murdered or expelled the Jews as well as Muslims when they “retook” Jerusalem “for Christ”; but the Muslims restored the Jews again when Saladin won back the city from the Crusaders.
There is also truth in the idea that “restoration” of the Jews does not mean their exclusive ownership of Palestine (or Jerusalem in particular). Since the kingdom has been taken away from the Jewish “builders” and given to another people (“the stone which the builders rejected”), they will never have a “Divine right” to exclusive ownership to that land they consider “theirs”. They may have a “right” to dwell together in peace with other Palestinian people (as they have done until Zionists decided to “reclaim the land”); but whatever may have previously been the case before the Roman conquest, they do not have any “chosen” status in the presence of God or mankind.
As to calling on the Jewish people (as well as non-Jews) to ‘repent’ and return to the LORD, we can do no other than follow the teachings of God’s Prophets who issued such calls to repent of following the teachings of men rather than God’s commandments. And this is precisely what the Hebrew Prophets did – they didn’t go easy on the Jewish people of their times!
Isaiah, for instance, said (29:13): “their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote”. The Greek Septuagint rendering of that statement is: “but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.” Jeremiah (8:8) said that the Jews of his time didn’t even have the Law of the LORD with them, because the lying pen of the scribes had turned God’s Law into a lie!
Jesus is ‘notorious’ for rebuking the Jewish teachers of his time for their departure from God’s Law. For instance, Matthew 15 says that the Pharisees and scribes [remember Jeremiah said the scribes turned the Law of God into a lie] wanted to know why Jesus’ disciples transgressed the traditions of the elders. Jesus responded (verse 3) “and why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” He then, in verses 8 and 9, referred to the statement of Isaiah in 29:13 – “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”
So I, and others who seek to follow the teaching of God through His Prophet Muhammad, say just what the Hebrew Prophets had to say. If people wish to reject the teachings of God’s Prophets, that of course is their decision to make. We are commanded to leave such people alone, and God will be their Judge. But they should not imagine that they have God’s blessing and are His “chosen people”. And when they seek to violently expel “non-people” from Palestine ["A land without a people for a people without a land"], they should not be surprised or shocked when those Palestinian “non-people” resist.
February 11th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
@Just Stopping By
Isn’t it ironic that a self-proclaimed Deist is encouraging Jews to be Muslims? BWAHAHAHAH!!!
Now let’s look at the definition of Deism
de·ism [dee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation ( distinguished from theism).
2.
belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deism
Belief in Muhammad as a prophet or any other prophet for that matter is incompatible with belief in Deism, because Deism rejects supernatural revelation and beliefs that the Deity is indifferent to human need and want.
Thomas Paine was a deist yet he wrote “The Age of Reason,” a book critical of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Here is a full view of the book
http://books.google.com/books?id=fFMMMmQk1CsC&pg=PA14&dq=the+age+of+reason+thomas+paine&hl=en&sa=X&ei=99I2T-qlK6HK0AGwuIWgAg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
So pay no heed to the person giving you a lecture.
February 11th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
@Believing Atheist and @Ilisha:
Perhaps my tongue was not firmly enough in my cheek. When I said, “I thought that knowing other nations and tribes would involve being friends and allies with them when possible,” I did not mean that I was changing my view of what most Muslim and other admins/commenters here believe; I was referring only to certain comments that I think can turn away others and in effect justify similar statements by Islamophobes.
I think that Loonwatch and its admins/commenters bring out some very good points, and I am humble enough to admit that I have learned a lot here. If there is anything I lament, it is that due to the tone of various statements here, the site probably is not terribly effective at reaching out to those who would not already be heavily inclined to agree with you.
@Stephen Parker: I just realized that I accidentally pulled the “Sir Stephen” name from Hajj Dawud’s post. I did not mean to change your name, and I apologize for that. I started reading your last post, but when I got to the “synagogue of Satan” bit, I just didn’t have the stomach for it. So, whatever you have to say after that won’t even have a chance of convincing me.
February 11th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
Stephen Parker,
I gave you the benefit of the doubt once before, you claim to be a Muslim, but everything you say indicates that you are confused Christian desperately trying to find some legitimacy in the New Testament and selectively picking out Quranic verses to justify your prejudices, which have no basis in Islam.
What you don’t grasp about Islam, is that rejecting a Prophet is not as bad as rejecting God or saying God is a trinity, or has a son, or rejecting the laws. A Muslim is not just one who professes a belief in Mohammed, as those like you who try to condemn Jews do using this logic, this can then be used agaisnt Christians with more validity, since Shariah law permits us to do more with Jews than with Christians. We do not eat with Christians, but we do with Jews because they follow the laws, their rejection of Jesus and Mohammed is immaterial here, because both of these Prophets brought the same message. Similarly, Christians not believing in Mohammed is immaterial since they are judged by their own Book. Since Christians reject the Torah, they have no business telling Jews what their verses mean. Just as the Quran cannot be understood without it’s exegesis and the Sunnah, so the Torah cannot be understood without the Talmud.
In any event, neither the Christian nor Jewish understanding of their Books is valid for a Muslim. We only follow Quran. It’s OK for them to follow their Books and be judged by them, but not for us. We cannot selectively take Christian theology and apply it to jews when it suits us, as you are doing.
kindly refrain from twisting Islam to suit your agenda. The Quran is a not tool for confused Christians to use against Jews. Nor for Jews to use against Christians for that matter. Stick to your own Books, and we’ll get on just fine. Calling yourself a Muslim whilst following Christian beliefs is not fine.
February 11th, 2012 at 3:43 pm
@Inspired and Just Stopping By,
Stephen is not a Muslim he is a self-proclaimed Deist pretending to be sympathetic to Muslims.
These are his own words: “I started out as a fundamentalist Christian, but have come a long way from that by now. I currently call myself a Deist with a strong bent toward mysticism. My political stance is very libertarian, which places me as a conservative economically, but liberal on many other issues.”
http://mystic444.wordpress.com/about/
Now can a real Deist believe in prophets who speak to God or the supernatural? No! That is contrary to the very definition of Deism. Please see my above post to Just Stopping By.
So I suspect Stephen is still a fundamentalist Christian (hence his anti-semitic diatribe) so you’re right Inspired. I finally agree with you!
February 11th, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Stephen Parker
My response sought to show that not only does the Qur’an not support the claims of the Zionist “synagogue of Satan”, but not even their own Jewish Scriptures support them – and neither do the Christian Scriptures.
The Synagogue of Satan is a New Testament thing, and it has no basis in Islam. If you really were a Muslim you wouldn’t be using new testament which is rejected by Islam for your own beliefs. So now that we have established you are a confused Christian, let’s move on.
The Zionist case as you call it, simply means that Jews have the right to live in Israel, that was never denied to them, and it is as confirmed in Surah Al Maidah, and as Ibn Kathir, and Ibn Tamimi (some of our greatest names) clarified. Do you think you, a confused Christian knows better than them? It does not depend on their behaviour or acceptance of Jesus or Mohammed as you call it. Neither does it for Christians either, we accept Christians following the New Testament, but don’t use it justify our beliefs, as you do, as Trinitarian Christianity is absolutely forbidden to Muslims and clashes with Islam. We also do not use the Tanakh for ourselves, or the New Testament since both are corrupted and forbidden to the Muslim. They are fine for their respective followers though.
Moreover, God made it clear in the Quran, that he hid not want his creation to follow one religion as you are insisting. You sound like an extremist if you were not a confused Christian. This is what the Al Qaeda crowd propogate, that all who are not Muslims are condemned. This is not traditional Islam and never has been.
You appear to support collective punishment, and think the crimes of a Jews should be passed on to their descendents, and you use the Quran to justify your beliefs, when the Quran supports no such belief.
Rejecting Jesus or Mohammed does not make Jews ‘incomplete’, so long as they worship God, and follow the laws of the Prophets, they can be rigteous. Palestine is not mentioned in the Quran, and nationalism was actually forbidden by The Prophet to Muslims.
So according to what you say, Christians have no right to any land anywhere in the world, since as polytheists and saying Jesus is God and a Trinity, and rejecting Mohammed , that makes them worse than Jews according to your logic. The Jews are Monotheistic at least, and rejecting Jesus is better than giving him divine status. Orthodox Islam has a problem with trinitarian Christianity far more than it does with Judaism which is Monotheistic. Hence Christians have no right to any land anywere since the earth belongs to the ‘righteous’ and that does not include polytheists. That is the logic you are using. But if you use that logic, then what about the sinning Muslims? Muslims are punsihed more and held to a higher standard than Book People. This means, Muslims have no right to Mecca for their sins, and your logic would immediately make every Muslims couintry unworthy of holding title to land, for the sins of their population.
In another thread I already explained some of the Surah’s you are misrepresenting above. You do not understand them in their context nor what they mean, but you have done what Christians did to the Torah which they call the ‘old testament’ rewritten to show that Jesus was a trinity, and son of God, and the laws were not binding.
Well rest assured we will not sit by and see you do the same to the Quran. Either learn what the Surah’s mean, or quit using the Quran to justify your prejudices.
The Quran is not a tool for anti semites or anti Zionists to mis use at will.
—————
O you people! Surely, We have created you of a male and a female, and made you peoples and tribes that you may know each other. Certainly, the most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the most pious of you. Surely, Allah is Knowing, Aware. (49.13)
After stating that we have all come from the same parents, Adam and Eve, Allah goes on to tell us that piety is the only criterion that discriminates between us in His sight, i.e. in terms of the ultimate reward in the hereafter. This is expanded on in the following set of verses:
You have been the best nation that has been raised up for mankind. You enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong, and believe in Allah. If the People of the Book believe [in Islam], it would be better for them; there are believers among them, but most of them are backsliders. (3.110) They will not harm you but a slight hurt. If they fight you, they shall turn their backs to you [to flee], and they shall not be helped. (3.111)
Abasement has been imposed on them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them. This is because they disbelieved in the verses of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits. (3.112) They are not all alike; among the People of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah’s verses in the nighttime, falling prostrate. (3.113) They believe in Allah and the Last Day, they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and they hasten to good works. Those are among the righteous. (3.114) Whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it. Allah knows the pious. (3.115)
———-
surah 3:112 and 3:113 make a mockery of your collective punishment from God claim,
Michael Eldwood,
You are correct when you say that God gave the earth to the righteous (see verse above which I posted) but it does not have any bearing on what you are saying? The verse you quoted was Prophet Musa telling them that the land would be theirs if they were righteous, but only God decides that, not he (Musa) and nobody else. The same principle applies to all the earth. Even though God gave them the land the ownership would be by human means (conquest) that was the way it was. That is the way it is alwasy is.
Your point is that humans should judge, but that point is flawed. It is not us who judges who is worthy of land or not, that is God. The righteous includes, all the Ummah (Muslims, Jews, Christians and all other Monotheists) It certainly does not mean collective punishment by other humans and to stand in judgement. For if that were so, then Christians have no right to land anywhere for their sins of the Crusades and the current wars, as you too seem to advocate collective punishment and that we should stand in judgement, when it is God who decides, and since the earth belongs to the righteous, if we used your logic or the one Stephen Parker used, we would need to apply it to all the Ummah. In that case, Muslims would come out the worst, since God said the earth belongs to the rigthteous, and if one Muslim sins then collectively all are guilty.
But in any case this point is a moot one, because you don’t have to believe in Jesus or Mohammed, to be righteous, as Stephen Parker is insisting, when Prophet Musa was given the land for his people, it wasn’t with the proviso that they believe in Jesus or Mohammed, but that they remain Monotheistic and follow the laws.
There are righteous amongst the Jews, and their are righteous amongst the Christians, and their are righteous amongst the Muslims, and all other Monotheists, who do not even believe in the major Prophets if they do believe in God.
Islam doesn’t have the ‘if you don’t believe in Mohammed’ you’re damned to hell view,. or if you don’t believe in Mohammed, the land no longer belongs to Jews, but to Muslims as some modern anti Zionists say. That belief has no basis in Islam, if it did, we would need to extend it to the entire Ummah, and let each other judge who is worthy of land. But God decides that, whomsoever controls land does it by the will of God.
and when God works his will he does it through nature. Thus those who do not want to believe that God’s will dictated Israel (or any other country) be reborn, have to accept the non religious verdict. The atheist above (Believing Atheist) supports Israel because he believes in the two state solution. Thus God has already decreed, and made it acceptable to the believer through their religous scripts, Jews, Christians and Muslims believe Israel will be reborn, and some don’t, but even for those that don’t (you don’t have to believe that God decreed it in the Quran if you don’t want to) and to the unbeliever there is another route (UN recognises Israel) as all countries (or most anyway) are signed to the UN charter of human rights.
This whole argument is riduculous, there is no case within Islam for anti Zionism. There is a case against the occupation, or right wing Zionism, which is against UN resolutions, and against oppression, and the Palestinians living under oppressive conditions, but that itself is linked to various other factors. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it defines Zionism, nor that it will remain so, nor that anti Zionists or Jew haters (as they usually are) should be justified in using it to vent their hate.
Just Stopping By
Don’t take offence at Stephen Parker. I gave him the benefit of the doubt once before, when he protested that he was a Muslim, but it is appararent from above he is just a confused Christian who hasn’t shed his anti semitic baggage, and who thinks a belief in Mohammed qualifies him to distort the Quran.
For this reason, I think Muslims should start becoming more discerning about whom we accept as converts. It is troubling that extremists ususally target new converts knowing they can brainwash them, they don’t go for born Muslims who have been schooled in traditional Islam, because they know they won’t be able to brainwash them.
We have enough problems with our own miscreants, we don’t need confused anti Semitic Christians, converting and then distorting God’s word.
February 11th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Believing Atheist
Thank you for exposing Stephen Parkers true beliefs. It’s clear he has no clue about Islam or it’s traditonal relationship with fellow ahl kitaab. I don’t have anything against Deisim for that matter, just this one for distorting the Quran.
February 11th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
TO: IlanReiber
The Quran is the Judge and Authority over the Bible, it reaffirms the Truths found in the Bible (Q. 5:46-48). That means Muslims DO NOT believe the Bible is totally manmade (from cover to cover) or corrupted. We believe the WORDS OF GOD cannot be corrupted (e.g. The Ten Commandments), only the false statements ABOUT God written by men. So the Muslims believe ONLY the Non-divine portions of the Bible are corrupt (altered), the Quran says Jews wrote the Book “with their own hands and said: “This is from Allah,” (Q. 2:79). They attributed LIES (false statements) to Allah by claiming “IT is from Allah” when it is NOT from Allah (God).
The Quran affirms that the Land was given to Israel; we must remember the “Israel” of today is NOT the same Israel mentioned in the Bible and Quran (the true Israel). Palestine does NOT belong to the Israel of today because they’re FAKE Jews who descended from European CONVERTS in the 8th century (740 CE). Hence, the Jews of today have NO RIGHT to the Land because they aren’t Semitic. The Palestinians, on the other hand, are Semitic, they dwelled in Palestine LONG BEFORE the Keys of Palestine/Jerusalem was given to Caliph Umar. So the “Israel” of today is NOT the same Israel mentioned in the Quran and Bible, read the book ‘The Thirteenth Tribe’ by David Koestler.
A few points must be addressed:
1. The Land wasn’t given to them FOREVER because the Quran doesn’t say forever. IF the Land of Palestine (Canaan) was given to Israel forever then WHY did GOD allow the Arabs (the Nation of Ishmael) to conquer it? IT is because GOD replaced Israel with a new (spiritually) chosen people (Matt. 21:43) after they rejected the LAST Israelite prophet (Jesus) and completely FAILED to fulfill the Divine mission (Ex. 19:6). The passage Ex. 19:6 is the REASON why GOD chose Israel, it wasn’t because of their race, He chose GOD for a spiritual purpose (to guide Mankind to GOD) but Israel made it RACIAL.
IF you read Jere 7:6, it clearly implies that Palestine (the Holy Land) would be taken away IF Israel DOES NOT obey. We know from the Bible that Israel FAILED to obey GOD, so GOD took away Palestine and allowed the Arabs/Muslims (new chosen people) to conquer it. The Kingdom of Islam is the Divine fulfillment of Gen. 7:20 that says:
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
IF Muhammad was a false prophet, how could His followers conquer Palestine? IF the Land belongs eternally to Israel (the Jews) then WHY did GOD allow Arabs/Muslims to conquer it?
2. Israel today is comprised of fake Jews who’re stealing the Land. (See The Thirteenth Tribe, by David Kosler).
3. Israel was given that Land ONLY if they obey. IF they disobey GOD, the land would be taken from them. That’s what the Bible clearly implies. Notice the word “IF” and “Then”
IF you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
THEN I will let you live in this place, IN THE LAND I gave your forefathers FOR EVER AND EVER. (Jeremiah 7:6-7)
Only IF the Children of Israel OBEY the Commands of God THEN he shall allow Israel to dwell in Palestine forever! So the Blessings of the Holy Land were contingent upon Israel following the Commands of GOD, the Covenant was BASED on Israel’s obedience! Yet, the Land of Palestine NO LONGER belongs to Israel because they BROKE the Covenant over and over:
For they have not listened to my words,” declares the LORD, “words that I sent to them AGAIN AND AGAIN by my servants the prophets. And you exiles have not listened either,” declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 29:19)
NOTE: Amazingly, even the EXILES failed to obey GOD!
The reason why GOD allowed Assyria, Babylon, and Rome to oppress Israel is because THEY disobeyed GOD! We know from Q. 5:13-14 and Jere 6:19, Isa. 1:2, Jere 11:11, 15:6, Isa. 5:24 that Israel disobeyed GOD (broke the Covenant).
Jeremiah 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? (Jere 4:4).
Did they wash the evil from their hearts? NO, so they weren’t saved, how could Palestine STILL belong to them? IF the Land is eternally Israel’s then GOD would NOT have allowed Ishmael (the Arabs) to conquer it!
NOTE: According to the Quran, the Jews were reluctant to enter the Holy Land, the Palestinians (children of Ham) lived in Palestine LONG BEFORE Caliph Umar conquered Palestine (and given Keys to Jerusalem).
February 11th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
I want to bring something to Loonwatch’s attention, but I am not sure if this article constitutes something relevant to your site.
Today I read a great article by Daoud Kuttab who has debunked another Islamophobic myth. The title of this article is: Myth Debunked: Palestinian Textbooks Don’t Teach Hatred
Here is the article on HuffingtonPost:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab/gingrich-palestinian-textbooks_b_1270016.html
If you guys wish to post this article feel free. If not sorry for wasting your time.
February 11th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Lev. 26:14-17 reads:
“‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
From this passage we derive the Meaning and Purpose of God’s wrath, the whole Covenant is based on Israel’s obedience to GOD! The Covenant extends to the Holy Land, the Divine Blessings of peoplehood, and Salvation. The Divine Blessings of Palestine would be TAKEN AWAY from the Jews IF they fail the Covenant of GOD. The Quran and Bible confirm that Israel BROKE the Covenant over and over; we don’t need the Scriptures to TELL US that Israel BROKE the Covenant, so how could Israel STILL be the Chosen People?! IT is very convenient to quote the Quran (Q. 5:20-21) for affirming THE TRUTH because the Jews were THE MUSLIMS of that time! Based on this, the Quran confirms that GOD commanded Israel to fight the PAGANS of that time (e.g. Ameliites), except the Quran doesn’t say GOD commanded them to KILL women and children! And that’s the difference between the Quran and Bible in this matter. The Jews were ‘the Muslims’ of that time, the Torah was THE QURAN of that time! When Israel FAILED the expectations of GOD, the Land and Divine Blessings were TAKEN from them (Matt. 21:43) and given to the Nation of Ishmael (Gen. 17:20). There’s good Evidence to show that Ishmael was BLESSED by GOD, that extends to the Arabs of today. How could Jews be the Chosen People (today) when MOST of them are fakes? They are stealing the Land that doesn’t belong to them! They are children of converts from Eastern Europe (Khazaria) going back to 740 CE under King Bulan! ALL this David Kausler has documented in his book The Thirteenth Tribe. Jesus said the Kingdom of GOD would be taken from Israel (Matt. 21:43) and given to ANOTHER nation bearing FRUITS. The Christians allege Matt 21:43 refers to Christendom (the “New Israel”) but Muslims provide good Evidence that Matt. 21:43 are about the UMMAH (Muslim nation). IT is very suspicious that only Matthew records Jesus’ prophecy (21:43)!
Here are the passages that confirm Lev. 26:14-17
Hear, O earth: I am bringing disaster on this people, the fruit of their schemes, because they have not listened to my words and have REJECTED MY LAW. (Jere. 6:19)
You have REJECTED me,” declares the LORD. “You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion. (Jere. 15:6)
“This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: ‘Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.’” (Jere. 19:5)
For they have not listened to my words,” declares the LORD, “words that I sent to them again and again by my servants the prophets. And you exiles have not listened either,” declares the LORD. (Jere 29:19)
This is what the LORD says: “For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because they have REJECTED THE LAW of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed (Amos 2:4)
Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel. (Isa. 5:24)
The Quran says:
So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. (Q. 5:13)
Compare the following passages:
Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, You will be for me a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
Hear the word of the LORD, you Israelites, because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: “There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land. There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed. (Hosea 4:1-2)
Israel broke the Covenant (Q. 5:13, Isa. 5:24), killed the prophets, rejected the Law, committed idolatry, shed innocent blood, so they’re NO LONGER the chosen people (by the standards of Ex. 19:5-6 and Jere 7:6-7).
February 11th, 2012 at 7:29 pm
@Believing Atheist,
Thanks for showing us that story on Palestinian Text Books. Things are radically different over-there than we are commonly led to believe.
February 11th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Believing Athiest: That is a nice article, but I am surprised that it links to 2004 information. The PA updated the textbooks in 2006 and the next review was generally a bit more favorable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbooks_in_the_Palestinian_territories
February 11th, 2012 at 8:45 pm
Defender of the truth
The Quran affirms that the Land was given to Israel; we must remember the “Israel” of today is NOT the same Israel mentioned in the Bible and Quran (the true Israel). Palestine does NOT belong to the Israel of today because they’re FAKE Jews who descended from European CONVERTS in the 8th century (740 CE). Hence, the Jews of today have NO RIGHT to the Land because they aren’t Semitic
Your comment is a racist one. You are talking of genes.
The Israel mentioned in the Quran are the Jews, and anyone who converts to Judaism becomes Jewish, just like anyone who converts to Christianity or Islam does. Regardless of where they are from and what their genes are, what their colour is. It is their business who they class as Jews nobody elses. No Jew can tell us who is a fake Muslim, only we decide that, and we do not decide on that based on whether they are white or black, or yellow or brown or what gene they have, but whether they are Muslim or not.
For the record, the Palestinians have the right to compensation and justice, not because of their Semitic genes but because they were there when all this upheavel took place.
If Semitic genes is the determining factor here, then one could extend your argument to say why is Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and other neighbouring countries denying Palestinians citizenship since they are Semites too?
Israel broke the Covenant (Q. 5:13, Isa. 5:24), killed the prophets, rejected the Law, committed idolatry, shed innocent blood, so they’re NO LONGER the chosen people (by the standards of Ex. 19:5-6 and Jere 7:6-7).
Collective guilt again. The concept does NOT exist in Islam even though it does in Christianity. That is because Christianity think they replaced Jews as the chosen nation.
You are doing what Parker above did, and what Sami Zaateri over at Muslim Responses rebutted when a Christian nazi made similar claims. In Islam the ‘chosen nation’ (Israel) meant that Prophets descended from them. The sins of some Jews does not negate that. It happened. God did choose them for that.
As Sami Zaateri explains:
Quranic Hate Speech against the Jews?
Or is it the Bible?
Sami Zaatari
http://muslim-responses.com/Hate_Speech/Hate_Speech_
So to put it very simply, whenever the Quran condemns the Jews, accusing them of killing prophets, disobeying prophets, and breaking the covenants.
It is simply referring to the evil and sinful Jews, not ALL Jews. Had the Quran NEVER said that not all Jews are bad then maybe Katz would have a point, but since the Quran makes it clear that not ALL Jews are bad it allows us to come to this understanding, which is as I repeat again, that whenever the Quran condemns the Jews for their crimes, it is specifically condemning the evil ones amongst them.
February 11th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
The Quran affirms that the Land was given to Israel; we must remember the “Israel” of today is NOT the same Israel mentioned in the Bible and Quran (the true Israel).”
I have to agree with this line. Israel mentioned in the Quran are suppose to be law-abiding, God fearing, good, religious people; not oppressors, law-breakers, and butchers that some have become!
February 11th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
@Inspired by Mohammad
“You are correct when you say that God gave the earth to the righteous (see verse above which I posted) but it does not have any bearing on what you are saying?”
I don’t know what you’re trying to say. If I’m correct, how could it have no bearing on what I said?
“The verse you quoted was Prophet Musa telling them that the land would be theirs if they were righteous, but only God decides that, not he (Musa) and nobody else.”
God is the ultimate judge. The Quran says:
2:62 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
22:17 Those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, the Christians, the Zoroastrians, and the idol worshipers, GOD is the One who will judge among them on the Day of Resurrection. GOD witnesses all things.
However, that doesn’t mean that we should suspend all judgement. God created humans as discerning creatures. And He expects us to use our discretion. The Quran says:
2:213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book with the facts ****so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing.**** But after receiving the proof, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. God guided those who acknowledged with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. God guides whoever/whomever (He) wishes to a straight path.
27:76 This Quran narrates to the Children of Israel most of what they are in dispute over.
“Your point is that humans should judge, but that point is flawed.”
Humans should always use their discretion. That’s what the Quran says (see above).
“It is not us who judges who is worthy of land or not, that is God.”
If someone tells you they have a God-given right to lord it over you and oppress you, you not only have a right but a duty to judge those claims. God criticized the people of ‘Ad for sheepishly following their leaders:
11:59 Such was `Aad – they disregarded the revelations of their Lord, disobeyed His messengers, and followed the ways of every stubborn tyrant.
Fatalism (jabr) is not a virtue in Islam.
“The righteous includes, all the Ummah (Muslims, Jews, Christians and all other Monotheists)”
I agree (see the verses above).
“It certainly does not mean collective punishment by other humans and to stand in judgement.”
I don’t know what makes you believe that I believe in collective punishment, but I don’t. God’s judgement is precise. That’s one of the one of the points of the Lot and his community. As for humans judging other humans, see my comment above.
“But in any case this point is a moot one, because you don’t have to believe in Jesus or Mohammed, to be righteous, as Stephen Parker is insisting, when Prophet Musa was given the land for his people, it wasn’t with the proviso that they believe in Jesus or Mohammed, but that they remain Monotheistic and follow the laws.”
I know (see the verses I mentioned at the beginning of this post). Also, let me quote a relevant verse from another post:
5:48 Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD’s revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws (shari’ah) and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny – all of you – then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/#comment-136380
“and when God works his will he does it through nature.”
Didn’t you just say a few paragraphs earlier: “Even though God gave them the land the ownership would be by human means (conquest) that was the way it was.”
“This whole argument is riduculous, there is no case within Islam for anti Zionism. There is a case against the occupation, or right wing Zionism, which is against UN resolutions, and against oppression, and the Palestinians living under oppressive conditions, but that itself is linked to various other factors. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it defines Zionism, nor that it will remain so, nor that anti Zionists or Jew haters (as they usually are) should be justified in using it to vent their hate.”
I agree.
February 11th, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Brigitte Gabriel has more soul and integrity than any of you pampered maidens, read her books , she speaks from experiences in war torn lebanon,everything she writes and says is pure solid gold and valuable to anyone who loves freedom and enjoys the milk and honey of our fine land, enjoy it while we can with primadonnas like you fault finding and smuggly sipping your carmel macchiatos
February 11th, 2012 at 10:51 pm
@ Inspired by Muhammad
I never said the Quran condemns ALL Jews, I’m aware that GOD condemns ONLY a portion of them. However, that “portion” is large because the Quran says MOST of them are transgressors.
I’ve learned from Ahmed Deedat that Salvation for the Jew is based on genes, a Gentile who converts to Judaism TODAY is deemed a “third grade Jew” (Deedat). I’ve heard Deedat say multiple times: “You have to be BORN a Jew to be a Jew”. That statement is confirmable! Many people would agree that the Jews of today aren’t Semites while Abraham and Isaac were Semitic! By the word ‘Semitic’ I mean ‘descendant from Shem’, the son of Noah, the European Jews today are NOT children of Shem but Japheth, the father of the Europeans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvrD_L7f1x0
Arabs (and Muslims) are disunited fools, that’s why Jordan, Lebanon, Syria don’t given Palestinians citizenship!
February 11th, 2012 at 11:04 pm
diddleydee you are a retard. She was once under the payroll of Pat Robertson in the 80s while in Lebanon. Do you want to support an illegal migrant looking miscreant who loves Pat Robertson, who in fact wants to discard secularism?
Enlighten yourself before talking out of your ass. http://dissidentvoice.org/2007/07/brigitte-gabriel-on-terrorism-it-takes-one-to-know-one/
February 11th, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Diddleydee,
Get a life, none of the horrible things that Bridgitte and people like her say will happen are going to happen. Its all bigotry and paranoia. Live in the United States and Want to support freedom here and oppose theocracy? Oppose the religious right. Its radical Christians in the US who are the ones most likely to turn America into theocracy. Radical Islam poses very little threat to freedom in non Muslims countries and its unlikely it ever will. If America becomes a theocracy in our lifetime it won’t be an Islamic theocracy given the tiny percentage of our population that Muslims, and “Eurabia” is a myth, so no need to worry about that either.
February 12th, 2012 at 3:39 am
“She speaks from experiences in war torn lebanon,everything she writes and says is pure solid gold”
If by “experiences” you mean “Made up stories” and if by “solid gold” you mean “lies”, then, yeah, what you said is a completely accurate statement:
“LOOSE WITH THE TRUTH: Brigitte’s writings and speeches are full of historical errors, including her recent statement that, “the world protected the Palestinians after the Palestine Liberation Organisaton [PLO] left from Lebanon in 1983,” (she probably meant 1982 when the PLO evacuated Beirut only after repeated pledges by the US and Israel that Palestinian refugee camps would be protected). She denies that the pledges were not kept and that Israel organised the 16-18 September 1982 massacre at the Sabra-Shatila camp. She claims it has never been proven who caused “that greatly exaggerated incident, and we may never know. Muslims are always killing each other. Like, what’s new, that is all they know.”
Brigitte’s book, Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America claims she spent 10 years in a bomb shelter until rescued by the Israeli army. Recently, she mentioned it was actually seven years. In a February 2008 update on her website, she writes: “As many of you know, I have a unique perspective on the threat we face. I lived for seven years in a bomb shelter in my home in Lebanon. I am a victim of Islamic terror. Most of my friends were killed by Islamic militants. I watched helplessly as we lost our beautiful country to radical Islam — I am determined that nothing even approaching that tragedy happens to my adopted country.”
Brigitte used to tell her audiences that Hizbullah was the group that terrorised her family for seven years, between 1975 and 1982, until people started to object pointing out that Hizbullah was formed after she left Lebanon with Israeli escorts following their 1982 invasion. Hizbullah was created as a resistance movement as a direct result of — and to confront — the Israeli occupation until it drove Israel from most of Lebanon by May of 2000. By then Brigitte was long gone and had never crossed paths with Hizbullah.”
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/887/focus.htm
February 12th, 2012 at 4:18 am
Defender of Truth writes: [T]hey’re FAKE Jews who descended from European CONVERTS in the 8th century (740 CE). Hence, the Jews of today have NO RIGHT to the Land because they aren’t Semitic.
“Truth” needs no defense, but what you are “defending” here is not truth. The Law of Moses does not exclude those who do not share the blood of Jacob, those who join themselves to Israel according to the Law are heirs of the Covenant of Moses equally with those born to it. Thus your blanket assertion that the present-day zionists are descended from “converts” is incorrect as a matter of Torah Law, as well as incorrect as a matter of lineage and heredity.
Yes, there was a mass conversion in or around the Eighth Century. Many of the descendants of YafatHa bin Nuh, systematically deprived of knowledge of their heritage from Noah, embraced Israel and became Jewish. They did this at the hands of the lineal successors of the Sanhedrin, scribes, and pharisees of Jesus’ time, who had fled Jerusalem before 70 a.d. They had migrated through Europe and remained “underground” for centuries, before recruiting the children of Yajuj and Majuj into the fold of Temple Israel ~ the Israel commissioned by Cyrus of Persia and condemned by Jesus to The Fire.
Download The Controversy of Zion and read it at leisure, or read it online, for that post-Messianic history of the deniers of the Messiah, from Jewish sources, along with other histories from unimpeachable sources.
February 12th, 2012 at 4:20 am
diddleydee
Sorry but she has neither a soul nor integrity. First Learn to read
then read what has been written on this site. Then we could have a talk rather than just making wild statements with no evidence.
February 12th, 2012 at 5:10 am
diddleydee, do you have anything of substance to say or will it be mere propaganda? I need to know before I spend five minutes of my time writing something out to you…
It is well know that Ms Gabriel’s books are embellished at best, so I am not sure I’d trust you on the gold front. And how are they in anyway valuable to ‘freedom’? Yes, I will find fault with her ‘works’, I think it is best to. Such writing is dangerous and stupid.
Jack
February 12th, 2012 at 8:58 am
Defender of Truth says, “I’ve learned from Ahmed Deedat that Salvation for the Jew is based on genes, a Gentile who converts to Judaism TODAY is deemed a “third grade Jew” (Deedat). I’ve heard Deedat say multiple times: “You have to be BORN a Jew to be a Jew”. That statement is confirmable! Many people would agree that the Jews of today aren’t Semites while Abraham and Isaac were Semitic! By the word ‘Semitic’ I mean ‘descendant from Shem’, the son of Noah, the European Jews today are NOT children of Shem but Japheth, the father of the Europeans.”
So many errors, so little time.
1. Despite what Ahmed Deedat says, Jews say that salvation is not based on genes. In fact, we don’t even think one has to be Jewish to be saved. (“The righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come” is a famous teaching from the Talmud (Sanhedrin 105a).)
2. Can you name one thing that a convert to Judaism can’t do that someone born a Jew can? Many rabbis are converts. (Famous recent example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alysa_Stanton) At most, there are some schools of thought that argue that adult converts should not be solely tasked with areas dealing specifically with how to raise a child Jewish because they did not have that experience, but can do so as part of a group that includes those raised Jewish.
3. Many may argue that Jews aren’t descended from Shem, but the DNA evidence argues otherwise for the bulk of Jewry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews “Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe…”)
“Arabs (and Muslims) are disunited fools, that’s why Jordan, Lebanon, Syria don’t given Palestinians citizenship!”
4. I try, perhaps largely unsuccessfully, to limit my discussion of Middle East politics. But, as far as Arab states not giving citizenship to Palestinians, my understanding is that this is not due to Arabs or Muslims being disunited, but the reverse, meaning that it is a very organized/united policy: “The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) ‘to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland’.[46]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee. I tried going to the underlying link, but it is no longer active. But see here: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/663/eg4.htm (“The roots of the Palestinian exemption go back to 1959, when the Arab League decreed that Palestinians should not be given citizenship in other Arab countries, as a way of preserving their identity.”)
February 12th, 2012 at 9:57 am
@ “Believing Atheist” – You said in a previous thread that you did not want to communicate with me any more, so I have refrained from responding to any of your comments. However, you keep bringing up my name and seeking to ‘badmouth’ or ‘expose’ me; so I guess I need to respond.
The “About” post on my blog to which you referred was published in September of 2009. That was before I ever started looking into Islam (I started in January of 2010). Things have changed a good bit since then – although I thank you for pointing out that I need to update that “About” page.
That’s a major difference between my writings and the Qur’an. Of the Qur’an it is written (4:82): “Will they not think about this Qur’an? If it had been from anyone other than God, they would have found much inconsistency in it”. You will certainly find “much inconsistency” in my writings, thus proving they are not “from God”.
My thinking develops and changes over time, as is probably true of all of us to one degree or another.
It was true that when I began publishing my blog, I tended to refer to myself as a Deist with a strong mystical bent. That reference to mysticism should be a strong indicator to any thinking person that my “Deism” was not the “traditional” Deism which is referred to in your definition. The “clockmaker” Deist who believes that God made the “clock” (universe), “wound it up”, and then left it to function on its own, does not tend to believe in any mystical ongoing relationship of God with His creation.
I found in the course of my correspondence on the “Positive Deism” site (still linked on my blog roll) that “Modern Deism” is not necessarily the same as “traditional” Deism. We had those who called themselves “Christian Deists” and “Spiritual Deists”. Many, if not most, would call themselves “Panendeists”, meaning that they believe that God is universally present in His creation and continually influencing it to one degree or another. I was one of those “Panendeists”.
I also at that time did not entirely discount “inspiration” and “revelation” – although I did not believe in “infallible inspiration”. I believed that to whatever degree God might “enlighten” and “inspire” very “advanced souls”, there was always the possibility or likelihood that the “inspired” information would become distorted in the process of transmission. The Bible was a major example of that for me. I believed (and still believe, for that matter) that there is much very good, “inspired” and truly “inspiring” information in the Bible; but there is also much that is distorted and even evil in it. I was willing to allow that the distortions came not only in the process of copying and editing, but in the very act of original transmission through the “prophet”. (I used the old illustration of light being filtered through stained glass).
Since beginning my study of Islam and the Qur’an – originally just to see if the Qur’an really taught the vicious things which Islamophobes attribute to it – my views have changed considerably. I find the Qur’an to be a true and infallible message from God, without internal inconsistency.
As I’ve said a number of times, I’m still not sure that I can identify myself as a “capital M” Muslim, though I identify myself as “muslim in spirit”. But I definitely love the Qur’an and the One Whom it presents.
So your “exposing” me as a Deist is only valid for those who don’t make allowance for people to change their minds. And your belief that I am still a fundamentalist Christian is simply too absurd to deserve comment.
February 12th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
@ “Inspired by Mohammad” –
You object to my use of the phrase “synagogue of Satan”, and accuse me of believing in “collective punishment” as if all Jews are alike and equally deserving punishment – as if I were asserting that ALL Jews belong to this “synagogue of Satan”. I don’t know where you got that idea – certainly not from anything that I have said – but the accusation is as ludicrous as when Islamophobes accuse the Qur’an of saying that “the Jews” are all “apes and pigs”. The Islamophobes are wrong about the Qur’an, and you are wrong about me.
Just within the context of my comments on this thread – never mind everything I have written in blog posts – I pointed out that there are anti-Zionist Jews; and I referred to Neturei Karta in particular. They may believe in a future “restoration” under a yet-to-come Messiah; but they totally repudiate the present “Jewish State of Israel” and its lies and murders. So no, all Jews are not alike. Another “for instance”: I would never accuse the commenter named “Mindy1″ of belonging to the “Synagogue of Satan” (unless of course she should completely reverse her attitude as expressed in her comments, and start insulting Jesus and Muhammad, or Christians and Muslims – God forbid).
But keeping the distinction between the “Synagogue of Satan” and the “Israel of God” in mind, the very passage from Sura 3 which you quoted proves my point about the Zionist “Synagogue of Satan”. Verse 110 for instance says concerning the “People of the Book”: “For although SOME of them do believe, MOST OF THEM are lawbreakers”. Then verse 12 says: “and, unless they hold fast to a lifeline from God and from mankind, they are overshadowed by vulnerability wherever they are found. THEY HAVE DRAWN GOD’S WRATH UPON THEMSELVES. They are overshadowed by weakness, too, because they have persistently disbelieved in God’s revelation and killed prophets without any right, all because of their disobedience and boundless transgression.” These Jewish deniers of God’s prophets and God’s law – which the Qur’an says constitutes MOST OF THEM – are the same people as the Biblical book of Revelation refers to as the Synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews but ARE NOT; and whom Jesus said are of their father the devil, who do the lying and murderous works of their father. What the Qur’an says is precisely the same thing as the Hebrew Prophets (including Jesus) said, and which I have said.
Your contention – if I’m reading you right – that because God has given each community its own law, it’s therefore possible and agreeable with God for people to claim to believe in and obey God while rejecting His messengers, is simply absurd. Over and over in the Qur’an God refuses to separate obedience to God from obedience to the messenger of God. It’s always: hear and obey “God and His messenger”.
And God does not accept the idea of believing some of His messengers and rejecting others. 4:150-152: “As for those who ignore God and His messengers [note again the refusal to separate God and His messengers - SGP] and want to make a distinction between them, saying, ‘We believe in some but not in others,’ seeking a middle way, THEY ARE REALLY DISBELIEVERS: We have prepared a humiliating punishment for those who disbelieve. But God will give [due] rewards to those who believe in Him and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them. God is most forgiving and merciful.”
Again in verses 155-162 of Sura 4, God speaks of the condemnation of those Jews who insult Mary the mother of Jesus, and boast of having rejected, crucified and killed the Messiah. Verse 159 says (in Abdel Haleem’s version): “There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in [Jesus] before his death, and on the day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.” I know there are different interpretations of the meaning of this verse, but the way I read it is that it is required of each of the People of the Book that they believe in Jesus before they die; otherwise Jesus will testify against them on the Day of Judgment.
Then verse 162 says: ‘But those of them who are well grounded in knowledge and have faith DO BELIEVE IN WHAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU [MUHAMMAD], and in what was revealed before you – those who perform the prayers, pay the prescribed alms, and believe in God and the Last Day – to them We shall give a great reward”. And verses 174 and 175 say: “People, convincing proof has come to you from your Lord and We have sent a clear light down to you. God will admit those who believe in Him and hold fast to Him into His mercy and favor; HE WILL GUIDE THEM TOWARDS HIM ON A STRAIGHT PATH”.
God knows what is in the heart. Those who have a heart for God (whether from the People of the Book or others) will find themselves guided by God so that they accept the Revelations given to all of God’s Prophets, when they are truly presented with those Revelations. They will be like those from among the Christians who are described in Sura 5:82-84: “…These people are not given to arrogance, and when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears because THEY RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH [IN IT]. They say, ‘Our Lord, WE BELIEVE, SO COUNT US AMONG THE WITNESSES. Why should not we believe in God and the Truth that has come down to us, when we long for God to include us in the company of the righteous?’” Perhaps they didn’t completely break away from their Jewish or Christian community, and the Law and Gospel; perhaps they continued to pray facing Jerusalem or some other direction rather than Mecca; perhaps they continued to follow the more restrictive dietary laws of the Torah; but they joyfully recognized and acknowledged God’s new message and messenger.
I know such was true of me. I may have considered myself a “mystical” Deist, but when I was confronted by the Truth of the Qur’an, by God’s guidance I recognized it and fell in love with it.
How can you think that a Muslim must totally reject former Revelation which still remains in the Bible, when it is that very Revelation which has enabled some Jews and Christians to recognize the Truth of the Qur’an and embrace that Revelation? They have recognized that Muhammad (peace be with him and his family) does indeed fulfill the prophecies contained in “the Law and the Gospel”. This was true in Muhammad’s day, and has been true since. Others, without necessarily recognizing prophetic fulfillment right away, nevertheless recognized the continuity of the message and embraced Muhammad as God’s messenger.
I don’t know where you get the idea that Muslims can’t eat with Christians; but I know I have read other Muslims who speak about eating with Christian friends. I’m sure they are careful to receive their food only in the name of God, but they don’t refuse to eat with Christians. I know this: if I came across a ‘hadith’ which forbade Muslims to eat with Christians, I would simply repudiate that ‘hadith’. I would consider it completely impossible that God’s messenger who gave us the Qur’an, and who made that wonderful covenant with St. Catherine’s Monastery, would ever say such a thing; therefore the ‘hadith’ must be one of those very many fraudulent sayings falsely attributed to God’s messenger.
And you seem to keep assuming that because I refer with approval to God’s former Revelation still contained in the Bible, I must be promoting Trinitarian Christianity. I have no idea where you get that idea from, because I repudiated ‘orthodox’ Christianity (meaning Trinitarian, “Jesus is God the Son” Christianity) between 20 and 25 years ago. I understand the Bible, including the “New Testament” and letters of Paul, in the way Unitarian Christians have always understood it (so far as the teachings about the Unity of God and humanity of Jesus is concerned). I do not for a minute believe that any of the “New Testament” writers taught the absurd doctrine of the Trinity, or believed that Jesus is “the One True God”. Their writings have been grossly distorted to infer that teaching from them; but such a teaching is not actually to be found in those writings. Whatever other faults are to be found in the Bible, Trinitarianism and “Divine Sonship” are not among those faults.
When I oppose Zionism and the idea of the “right” of the Jewish people to Palestine, I am opposing the idea that they have a God-given Covenant right to “own” that land – especially “for all time”. I do not oppose the presence of Jewish people in that land; I just oppose the idea that the land belongs “by right” to them exclusively – and that they have the right to invade and drive out of the land those non-Jews who were already there.
If “Zionism” only meant that Jews should be allowed to live in Palestine, there would not have been any controversy – because as Hajj Dawud pointed out, Jews have been living in the land together with non-Jews pretty much continuously since the time of Umar (peace be with him).
But I think you know very well that when people refer to “Zionism”, they’re not just talking about some Jews living together in peace with non-Jews in Palestine; they’re talking about the “right” the Zionists have imagined they have to kick out the non-Jewish Palestinians and establish their own “Jewish State”. It involves the absurd idea that the Palestinians are not even to be considered “people” (“a land WITHOUT A PEOPLE for a people without a land”) and therefore they don’t have any human rights. Anyone who can support such “Zionism” is morally and spiritually bankrupt, and cannot be considered “God’s chosen people” with any “Covenant rights”. I make absolutely no apology for being “Anti-Zionist” with regard to such “Zionism”; and I say there is no basis for it in the Qur’an at all.
Your quotation of 49:13 itself demolishes any claim of “chosenness” with “special Covenant rights” for the Jewish people. “In God’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him”. Those Jews who are “mindful of Him” belong among God’s “special” people – as do those English, French, German, Iranian, Arabian, Indian, Russian, etc. people who are mindful of God. None of them has any special covenant right to a particular piece of geography though. Christians do not have a covenant right to any piece of land, and neither do Muslims or Jews. But each person, whether he/she is a believer or not, has a right to live in that area of the world in which God has caused him/her to live, until God takes his/her soul.
Such are my current beliefs. It seems to me that in some points you have misrepresented me, and in other points you have misrepresented the Qur’an. But God knows best, and will straighten us out eventually – if not in this lifetime, then in the next.
February 12th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
@Stephen Parker,
You claim: “I find the Qur’an to be a true and infallible message from God, without internal inconsistency.”
If you love the Quran and Allah so much and believe in the Quran’s infallible message , what’s stopping you from taking the Shahada and becoming a full-blown capital “M” Muslim? That’s the natural and rational step to take, to express this love.
Second, you have updated your blog with new info and posts constantly since 2009, are you telling me that you did not have the time to update your “About Page to include the fact that you’re a “muslim in spirit”? How did you have the time to update your blog with new info and new posts?
February 12th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
@ “Believing Athiest” – I don’t believe I said anything about not having time to update it. It just never occurred to me to do so. My blog posts were so obvious in making clear my changing viewpoints, as well as comments on my blog posts, that it simply never entered my mind to update the “About” page until you tried to use it to “expose” me.
My reasons for not becoming “official” are several and would probably take up too much space; but let me see if I can be brief.
I believe in reincarnation and karma, which does not fit in with any major interpretation of Islam with which I am familiar. I believe it is compatible with the Qur’an, by understanding the use of symbolism and imagery in the Qur’an. But most Muslims would probably consider my view as ‘heresy’ or some such thing.
Also, I do not know Arabic, and so cannot say prayers in Arabic; and obviously I can’t follow along with the prayers at a Friday prayer service. I don’t believe in the necessity in praying in an “unknown tongue” – English seems just fine to me – and so I don’t feel the need to try to mimic the sounds in order to join in public prayer, nor do I feel the need to pay to take Arabic lessons in order to learn the language.
One more thing is that, as I said that I am muslim “in spirit”, I’m not at all sure that following the “letter” of the outward rituals is at all necessary. I believe that the rituals are like instructional material; if the lessons of the instruction manual have been learned and internalized, one doesn’t need to continue reading the manual as it were. The primary aim of the rituals, it seems to me, is to teach people to be constantly aware of God and honor Him in all of our thoughts, words, and deeds. As God has impressed that lesson on me gradually over the years without any reference to the rituals of Islam, I see no need to take up those rituals now.
Obviously, my Muslim friends will disagree with my evaluation; but I’m sure they will be willing to let God be my Judge.
By the way, as an aside, although I am no longer an ‘orthodox’ or ‘fundamentalist’ Christian, nor am I a ‘Deist’, and I have thoroughly repudiated many beliefs related to those systems, I am deeply grateful that God gave me the opportunity to experience those systems. They were an important part of my ‘training’, as far as I am concerned. And I’m still “in training” in some ways, so there is no predicting where I’ll be in another 2 or 3 years if God permits me to live on earth that long.
February 12th, 2012 at 5:47 pm
Wow! I was gone for 2 days and this thread is already busting with infights, and way off topics. But I want to know why is my post at February 9th, 2012 at 9:19 pm to IlanReiber, been “[snipped]“, as if I’ve said something outrageous… Was’t because for going off topic? Then in that case I’m sorry but, I must say that I was just responding to others who’ve brought up the subject of Palestinians into the thread, and there are those after my post who’d continued to do so as well, and I don’t see anyone’s post been [snipped]… Or is’t because I’ve said to Mr IlanReiber who was shamelessly using the Qur’an to spread and legitimize his Zionist ideology, that I wont have it when he said- “nothing was stolen, Mr Géji you mean reclaimed”- and said to him he can take that back to his European ancestors where probably Judaism reached them at later time? If that was the reason for the “[snipped]“, then I want to know where is the harm in that, because last I’ve checked Judaism is a religious ideology, not a racial Ideology, as much as religious ideology as it’s other two sisters-(Christianity and Islam) where all Three of them have reached their respective followers at different stages, and still are doing so. The fathers of Zionism themselves knew this and never claimed what Mr IlanReiber and other modern day Zionists are claiming, there are also plenty of other Jews today, whether Zionist leanings or not, like Yehuda Bauer, Shlomo Sand and many others who are saying the same thing-(i.e., that the Jews of today have different descendants, some European, some African, and some Middle-Eastern ect, and all embraced Judaism at different stages). So is there a need for “[snipping]” everytime one state such? Cause I think is being a little overtly sensitive to certain group’s sentiment, and in this case may I add a bit double-stander, when visitors here have stated “worse” about Muslims and Islam, and just like the Muslim LoonWatchers have corrected those visitors statements regarding them and their religion, so can Jew LoonWatchers do the same as well, and I don’t think none of us really need administration to come in for difference of opinions, I think Just Stopping By and others are smart enough fellow to do just that, and they’ve done it many times, even on this very thread.
February 12th, 2012 at 7:18 pm
> “One more thing is that, as I said that I am muslim “in spirit”, I’m not at all sure that following the “letter” of the outward rituals is at all necessary. I believe that the rituals are like instructional material; if the lessons of the instruction manual have been learned and internalized, one doesn’t need to continue reading the manual as it were. The primary aim of the rituals, it seems to me, is to teach people to be constantly aware of God and honor Him in all of our thoughts, words, and deeds.”
@Stephen G. Parker
Declaring the Shahada, Salah , Sawm , Zakat, Hajj to Mecca, are the foundations set forth by Allah Himself, and obligations that falls upon every able Muslim, they’re not just as “necessary” as they’re straight commandments of Allah. A Muslim cannot be a “Muslim” without performing them , which are precisely what makes someone a “Muslim”.
1) — O ye who believe! bow down prostrate yourselves and adore your Lord; and do good; that ye may prosper.
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive (with sincerity and under discipline): He has chosen you and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the religion of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (Revelation); that the Apostle may be a witness for you and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer give regular Charity and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector the Best to protect and the Best to help! — Qur’an 22:77-78, Surah Al-Hajj
2) — When my servants ask thee concerning Me I am indeed close (to them); I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me; let them also with a will listen to My call and believe in Me; that they may walk in the right way. — Qur’an 2:186, Surah Al-Baqarah
3) — O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you that ye may (learn) self-restraint.
(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free will it is better for him and it is better for you that ye fast if ye only knew.
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur’an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting but if anyone is ill or on a journey the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. — Qur’an 2:183-185, Surah Al-Baqarah.
Salaam.
February 13th, 2012 at 5:10 am
Just FYI kids If you look at a history book Israel has been created and destroyed 3 times Last time was by Rome who then kicked out all of the jews from the land and they scattered all over the world from Africa to EU so anything about it in Bible quran torah has all ready been for filled.
February 13th, 2012 at 5:21 am
and I personally dont have a issue with Israel I would love to go there walk around I am sure they won’t let me since Israel is a religious apartheid state wont let me in but I agree with the 1940 Israel heck or peace I give them 1960 border since they won the war but They need to lay down a permanent border and follow it and allow Pali do the same.
February 13th, 2012 at 7:36 am
Many people would agree that the Jews of today aren’t Semites while Abraham and Isaac were Semitic!
And those “many people” would be mistaken. Those who are suffering the curses of Deuteronomy 28:15-68, according to the Covenant made at Horeb (Deut 29:1), are suffering because they are Jews, not because they are not. And the Ashkenazi are the successors of the pharisees, scribes, and sanhedrin of Jesus’ time, they didn’t spontaneously appear out of thin air.
February 13th, 2012 at 7:47 am
Sir Stephen writes: I find the Qur’an to be a true and infallible message from God, without internal inconsistency.
Which makes you a muslim, which is why I refer to you as “Sir Stephen.”
February 13th, 2012 at 8:10 am
“Inspired by Muhammad” writes (to Sir Stephen): If you really were a Muslim you wouldn’t be using new testament which is rejected by Islam for your own beliefs.
In the Qur’an, ALLAH instructs the Christians to return to their Book, proving that it was intact and extant at the time, and will be intact and extant forever. The Qur’an instructs us that the people of the Book (1) moved words from their places, (2) twisted their tongues with the Book, (3) hid the Book behind their backs, and (4) wrote with their own hands what they said was the Book but was not the Book. Nowhere does the Qur’an say that they were able to remove ALLAH’s Words from the earth that He had established in the earth.
With the Qur’an we can identify most, if not all, of what they said was the Book but is not; with the history of The Promised Land from Abraham through to today, we can identify most, if not all, of what words were changed from their places; with knowledge of Semitic grammar, syntax, and vocabulary construction, we can identify most, if not all, of how they twisted their tongues with the Book; and with the recorded history of the beginnings of the Ummah raised by the Final Revelation, we can identify most, if not all, of what they hid behind their backs ~ the history of those beginnings recorded, in advance, in the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures and in the words of His Word that He cast into Mary, Jesus.
If you really were a Muslim you wouldn’t be abusing the “new testament” which contains what is guarded, preserved, and protected by the Qur’an.
February 13th, 2012 at 9:05 am
@ “Geji” – I do appreciate your reply; but I won’t be using the comments section of Loonwatch to try to defend my personal beliefs on those matters (and everyone breathed a sigh of relief
). My views are sometimes just simply MY views, and will sound “strange” and “weird” to others.
You may be sure, though, that I have no desire to try to convince “practicing” Muslims to cease their practice; and I most certainly am not seeking to say that such practice is ‘wrong’. God’s peace and blessing be with you as you seek to obey the will of God.
February 13th, 2012 at 9:11 am
@ Hajj Dawud – Thanks for your comment. I’ve been wondering about the “Sir” Stephen; I thought perhaps you were getting me confused with the commenter “Sir David”.
February 13th, 2012 at 10:46 am
Géji writes: Declaring the Shahada, Salah, Sawm, Zakat, Hajj to Mecca, are the foundations set forth by Allah Himself
No, Dear, those are what establishes that an individual is a muslim, the last (Hajj) being waived (and thus presumptive) for those without the means to perform Hajj (these days, between $5,000 and $8,000 from America).
The foundation of Islam is “Laa ilaha ill-ALLAH.”
Shahadah obligates us to accept someone’s testimony that he is a muslim. ALLAH already knows the truth of that testimony.
His explicit command is “Aqimoo’s-salat” ~ establish the prayer. All other commands said to refer to salat either describe it or say “Remember ALLAH” at this or that time of day or night. The common ritual form is described by numerous hadith, most of which differ, while the Qur’an specifies “Stand up for ALLAH, singly or in pairs, in the night.” Finally, we have the hadith “The Imam’s prayer is your prayer,” which can be understood in a number of ways, the most common being that the Imam is performing your prayer for you.
Zakat is incumbent on those from whom it is due, which at only one time in history included all of the muslims.
Fasting is incumbent on those who witness the hilal of Ramadan and are not otherwise exempted. “Witness” means direct, personal knowledge, not anything else. Although it is permissible for someone who has not witnessed the hilal to begin fasting on the basis of someone else’s testimony that he or she hears first-hand, it is not mandatory.
You can compare the hadith that mentions these five with another:
“Bada al-jama’a ‘ala khums ~ amira, sama’a, tawaa’iya, jihad, wa hijrah” ~ the jama’ah is established on five: an amir, hearing him, obeying him, struggle at his direction, and retreat at his call.”
You can have as many muslims gathered for Friday prayers as you can find, but until they are united behind an amir and joined in struggle, they are not a jama’a, they are a group of muslims. Similarly you can be certain that you are a muslim when ALLAH allows you to visit His House. Until then, it’s a matter of faith, not certainty, and the muslims are required to keep faith with what they hear and see.
February 15th, 2012 at 4:46 am
So here’s an example of how stupid and unoriginal this woman really is:
Jon Stewart does a video about American Christians that are saying they’re persecuted , and in it he says
“You’ve confused a war on your religion with not always getting everything you want”
9 hours later, this is “Brigitte’s” Facebook update:
“Brigitte Gabriel
People have confused a war on religion with not getting what they want. CAIR is a first class example. LIKE if you agree.”