Robert Spencer

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Pamela Geller

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Bat Ye'or

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Brigitte Gabriel

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Daniel Pipes

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Debbie Schlussel

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Walid Shoebat

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Joe Kaufman

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Wafa Sultan

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Geert Wilders

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The Nuclear Card

Why Do They Hate Us? They Don’t.

Posted on 26 April 2012 by Danios

Mona Eltahawy, an Arab-American journalist, created a firestorm when Foreign Policy Magazine published her article “Why Do They Hate Us?”.  If you thought the they and us refers to Muslims and Americans, you’d be wrong.  In fact, they is Arab men, and us is women.  Her article is a stabbing critique of Arab culture, which she finds to be heavily misogynistic.

If that wasn’t provocative enough, she goes further: according to her, these Arab men hate women.  ”Yes: They hate us. It must be said.”  To prove her argument, she issues a challenge: “Name me an Arab country, and I’ll recite a litany of abuses [against women] fueled by a toxic mix of culture and religion.”  The rest of the article is a recitation of that litany, interspersed with jazzy catchphrases such as “[w]e are more than our headscarves and our hymens” and “poke the hatred in its eye.”

There is no way to deny the basic premise that the status of women’s rights in the Arab world is abysmal.  Why then did Mona Eltahawy evoke such a hostile reaction from even the Arab women whose rights she seeks to protect?  The easy answer, one that Eltahawy and her supporters might argue, is that these women are simply brainwashed.  Too much “Islamism” in their little brains.  The problem with this argument is that it’s sexist.  It’s basically saying Arab women are too stupid to think for themselves.

The real reason that Arab women recoil after reading Eltahawy’s article is that, while she tries to connect to them based on their gender, she attacks other aspects of their core identity: their race, nationality, religion, and culture.  In fact, her racist (and somewhat babbling) screed is nothing short of a vicious attack on their entire civilization.

Eltahawy cites “a toxic mix of culture and religion” as the source of the abuses against women.  Oddly, she later says, “You — the outside world — will be told that it’s our ‘culture’ and ‘religion’ to do X, Y, or Z to women.”  Yet, it is Mona Eltahawy herself who is arguing precisely that.

By attacking their core identity, Eltahawy has succeeded in alienating her own audience.  Imagine, for instance, an American feminist arguing for greater rights for African women, while at the same time assailing the black race, African culture, and traditional tribal religion.  How receptive or thankful do you think these African women would be?  How pleased would the black or African community be if someone was writing articles about how backwards their culture is?

Mona Eltahawy’s article engages in trite, racial stereotypes.  Legitimate problems in the Arab world are sensationalized.  They hate women.  What an absurd exaggeration!  They have mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters–and it is reasonable to assume that, like other human beings on earth, they love them.

A man can love his wife and still abuse her.  He can have undying affection for his daughter but still wrong her in horrible ways.  But, by going so far as to say they hate women, Eltahawy has dehumanized them.  One recalls similar invective against Palestinian parents: they don’t love their children.  The message being sent is: they are worse than animals.

Women’s rights is an area of concern in many parts of the developing world, not just the Arab world.  Why single out Arabs?  Women face major obstacles in India.  Should we demonize the Hindu religion and the great Indian civilization?

Eltahawy lists off “a litany of abuses”, bringing up extreme cases to make her point.  By citing isolated cases and stacking them all up together, she ends up portraying an imbalanced and biased picture of the Arab world.

Racists don’t see nuance.  They lump all people of a certain group altogether.  That’s exactly what Mona Eltahawy does in her article.  She paints the entire people of that region–or at least its men–with one broad bush.  They hate women.  All 170 million of them.

In fact, not all Arabs are alike.  During my travels in the Muslim world, I saw all sorts of people, with a broad diversity of views.  I met conservative Muslims, liberal Muslims, atheists, Christians, Communists, hippies, you name it.  No sweeping generalization could be made about them (aside for, perhaps, their disgust of American foreign policy).

It is true that I was deeply disturbed by the mistreatment of women, religious and ethnic minorities, poor people, servants, and animals.  But, I also met people there–men, no less–who were also deeply disturbed by these things and would have no part in it.

Just as the viral Kony 2012 video drew criticism for reinforcing the idea of White Man’s Burden, so too does Mona Eltahawy’s article tap into historically racist Orientalist attitudes towards the Arab world.

By firmly pegging abuses against women to the Arab culture and Muslim religion, Mona Eltahawy’s article was nothing short of bigotry.  Indeed, one could hardly tell the difference between Eltahawy’s article and what could normally be found sprawled on numerous Islamophobic websites, such as Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch and Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugs.  It is almost a surety that her article will be approvingly cited on such sites, which pit “our civilized, freedom-loving civilization” against “those barbaric, women-hating peoples.”

Had Mona Eltahawy been just any ole’ Islamophobe hacking away at the keyboard–had she been a Robert Spencer or a Pamela Geller–her article would hardly have made headlines.  It would have been just one of thousands and thousands of such hateful rants on the internet by anti-Muslim trolls.  But, like Irshad Manji and Asra Nomani, Mona Eltahawy has an official “I’m a Muslim” card.  That’s even better than the official “I’m an ex-Muslim” card that bigots like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nonie Darwish proudly carry.  It’s probably even a step above the “I’m a former jihadi terrorist” gold card.  Eltahawy holds the platinum card and gets extra points for being a woman.

As other pundits have noted, Mona Eltahawy is–along with Irshad Manji, Asra Nomani, Tarek Fatah, Zuhdi Jasser, etc.–acting in the role of the “native informant.”  Monica L. Marks writes on the Huffington Post:

Why Do They Hate Us?” asks the latest cover of Foreign Policy magazine. Beneath the title stands a cowering woman wearing nothing but black body paint resembling the niqab, or full Islamic face veil.

Egyptian feminist Mona Eltahawy authored the article. Her central contention — that Arab Muslim culture “hates” women — resurrects a raft of powerful stereotypes regarding Islam and misogyny. It also situates Ms. Eltahawy’s work within a growing trend of “native informants” whose personal testimonies of oppression under Islam have generated significant support for military aggression against Muslim-majority countries in recent years.

Books by these “native voices” — including Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s “Infidel,” Azar Nafisi’s “Reading Lolita” in Tehran, and Irshad Mandji’s “Faith Without Fear” — have flown off the shelves in post-9/11 America despite being roundly rebuffed by leading feminist academics such as Columbia University’s Lila Abu-Lughod and Yale’s Leila Ahmed. Saba Mahmood, another respected scholar, noted that native informants helped “manufacture consent” for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by serving up fear-inducing portrayals of Islam in “an authentic Muslim woman’s voice.”

Although such depictions have proven largely inaccurate and guilty of extreme generalizations, they have become immensely popular. Why? Because these native “testimonials” tell us what we in the West already know — that there’s something inherently misogynistic about Muslims and Arabs.

By stirring up our sympathies and reinforcing our prejudices, individuals like Ms. Hirsi Ali and Ms. Eltahawy have climbed to the top of the media ladder. Their voices are drowning out the messages of more nuanced, well-respected scholars.

Marks goes on to say:

Her fault lies in extrapolating broad cultural judgments from context-specific abuses, implying that Islam and Arab culture writ large are have toxically combined to create a hopelessly backward region that “treats half of humanity like animals.”

These native informants just tell us what we want to hear.  Their job is to increase hatred of Arabs and Muslims, something that is needed in order to sustain our multiple wars of aggression in that part of the world.

Native informants do not help fix the problems they point to.  Why, for example, did Mona Eltahawy choose to publish her article in Foreign Policy, an American magazine?  Why didn’t she write it for an Arab/Arabic publication, with a primarily Arab readership?

Instead she chose Foreign Policy Magazine, which was founded by none other than Samuel P. Huntington.  His famous Clash of Civilizations theory pit the Judeo-Christian West against the Muslim world.  How very fitting that Mona Eltahawy’s us vs. them article was published in the magazine he founded.

Eltahawy’s audience is clear:

You — the outside world — will be told that it’s our ‘culture’ and ‘religion’ to do X, Y, or Z to women.

Monica Marks writes:

 It is important for her readers, however, to understand the dangers of sensationalist coverage that over-simplify complex matters of gender, politics, and religious observance in Muslim-majority countries.

History is rife with examples of seemingly women-friendly arguments hijacked in the service of imperialistic and aggressive ends. While emotional and sensationalist portrayals such as this most recent Foreign Policy cover will sell copies, they do little to deepen our understanding of the contexts and conditions shaping women’s oppression in Arab countries today.

Indeed, the issue of human rights was routinely used by the colonial powers to justify the conquest and expropriation of land.  The Americas, including the land that is now the United States, was brutally conquered and stolen by Europeans on this very basis.  The indigenous peoples were portrayed as savages needing civilizing.  The white man would bring them “democracy”, “freedom”, and “civilization” (Operation Iraqi Freedom?).

In her article, Mona Eltahawi enumerates numerous abuses Arab women face.  However, none of these inhumanities–not even female genital mutilation–can be considered as problematic as the cannibalism and human sacrifice that the indigenous peoples of the Americas sometimes engaged in.  And yet, whatever failings the indigenous peoples had in their culture and civilization, it is now widely understood who the real savage was.

We can continue to pat ourselves on the back for how civilized we are, how free our women are, how we are so much better than them.  But, none of that will change the fact that we are the ones waging wars of aggression and occupation in the Muslim world.  We are the ones killing hundreds of thousands of their innocent men, women, and children.

It was in another article, also published in Foreign Policy with almost the exact same title–Why They Hate Us?–that Prof. Stephen Walt calculated the number of Muslim lives the U.S. has extinguished:  “a reasonable upper bound for Muslim fatalities…is well over one million, equivalent to over 100 Muslim fatalities for every American lost.”  To use a jazzy catchphrase of my own: mutilating a baby girl’s genitals is horrible, but dropping a bomb on her head is much worse.

Danios was the Brass Crescent Award Honorary Mention for Best Writer in 2010 and the Brass Crescent Award Winner for Best Writer in 2011.

  • Anticipated Serendipity

    “Just as the viral Kony 2012 video drew criticism for reinforcing the idea of White Man’s Burden, so too does Mona Eltahawy’s article tap into historically racist Orientalist attitudes towards the Arab world”

    Any criticism of the MidEast = orientalism. You didn’t have to write a whole article to tell us that. That Kony business reinforced White Man’s Burden? Really? I thought it was sensationalist and didn’t see how it could achieve much, but subtly racist? Methinks your PC-crippled leftist pals over-analysed that one.

    “By firmly pegging abuses against women to the Arab culture and Muslim religion, Mona Eltahawy’s article was nothing short of bigotry. Indeed, one could hardly tell the difference between Eltahawy’s article and what could normally be found sprawled on numerous Islamophobic websites, such as Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch and Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugs. It is almost a surety that her article will be approvingly cited on such sites, which pit “our civilized, freedom-loving civilization” against “those barbaric, women-hating peoples.”

    But this civilization is “freedom-loving” and relatively “civilized”. What’s wrong with admitting that? The MidEast is hardly a female utopia. Fact is fact, irrespective of who says it.

    “…Why, for example, did Mona Eltahawy choose to publish her article in Foreign Policy, an American magazine? Why didn’t she write it for an Arab/Arabic publication, with a primarily Arab readership?”

    LOL. Do you think the type of censorship that is practiced by Arab publications would allow such an article? I’m almost certain something like this would attract death threats if it was written for an Arab publication. Lucky Eltahawy lives in America and not in Europe or she may have needed to go into hiding and travel with bodyguards for the rest of her life.

    “We can continue to pat ourselves on the back for how civilized we are, how free our women are, how we are so much better than them. But, none of that will change the fact that we are the ones waging wars of aggression and occupation in the Muslim world. We are the ones killing hundreds of thousands of their innocent men, women, and children.”

    And this anti-war drivel has what to do with women’s rights in MidEastern cultures? WE are always worse than THEM, right? Diverting attention from the issue being discussed is NOT a good persuasive technique.

    “…To use a jazzy catchphrase of my own: mutilating a baby girl’s genitals is horrible, but dropping a bomb on her head is much worse.”

    FGM is an ancient cultural practice. No ceasefires or peace deals are going to make it stop and there’s nothing worse than being abused by those who are supposed to love and protect you. Furthermore, is it an aspect of Western culture to “drop bombs on baby girl’s heads” or is that the unfortunate result of certain policies? Do terrorists hailing from the MidEast, and even governments in said region not deliberately target civilians thereby “dropping bombs on baby girl’s heads”? Can the same be said for FGM? Is FGM not a reprehensible aspect of certain cultures (FGM is widespread in Eltahawy’s native Egypt)? Is FGM practiced in the West by Westerners?

    Talk about comparing apples and oranges *rolls eyes*. You can never miss an opportunity to badger on about how violent and destructive the West is, can you? So Danios, is no one allowed to talk about Arab issues? Must everyone join you in yapping about the evils of the West? Even after the bombs stop dropping, girls/women will still be suffering at the hands of the men their culture has produced.

  • Anticipated Serendipity

    Very disappointing article. So does any and all criticism of Arab culture and religious extremism equate to bigotry? You can’t argue with the hard truth that Arab culture is not woman-friendly, so instead you decide to basically argue that we shouldn’t mention it because “Islamaphobes” and racists may use it against us and because the West is worse with its wars and what not. If an Arab woman cannot criticize her own culture for it’s treatment of her sex without being labelled “racist”, then who can? Simply ridiculous.
    @Danios:
    “There is no way to deny the basic premise that the status of women’s rights in the Arab world is abysmal. Why then did Mona Eltahawy evoke such a hostile reaction from even the Arab women whose rights she seeks to protect? The easy answer, one that Eltahawy and her supporters might argue, is that these women are simply brainwashed. Too much “Islamism” in their little brains. The problem with this argument is that it’s sexist. It’s basically saying Arab women are too stupid to think for themselves.”
    She evoked a hostile reaction because Arab culture (like many other Eastern cultures) chokes its people with shame/honour. It’s all about saving face and it’s humiliating for the outside world to be aware of your flaws; not only that, but YES the women are somewhat brainwashed. There’s nothing misogynistic about pointing that out. It’s even more true when you point out that the average Arab woman is a lot less educated and a lot more likely to be illiterate than her Western counterpart. This makes it a lot easier for Arab men to control their women. They are socially programmed or “nurtured” to view themselves and their place in society a certain way by their CULTURE. FGM is abuse of an abhorrent kind and it is carried out by women – who’ve experienced the horror and know the damage first-hand – on other girls, not because these women are bitches, but because their culture has hardwired them to accept this barbarism and abuse as their burden for being women. Let the apologia by way of comparisons with high heels and the sexual objectification of women in the West begin…
    “A man can love his wife and still abuse her. He can have undying affection for his daughter but still wrong her in horrible ways.”
    What??? Do you really believe that? One man’s abuse is another man’s affection? You’re not going to deny that violence against women is widespread in the MidEast, you’re just going to argue that slapping your woman around every now and then doesn’t mean you don’t love her and even though you’ve killed your daughter because she wouldn’t marry her cousin you still have “undying affection” for her.
    “Women’s rights is an area of concern in many parts of the developing world, not just the Arab world. Why single out Arabs? Women face major obstacles in India. Should we demonize the Hindu religion and the great Indian civilization?”
    This is a perfectly generic argument as you can use it against anyone. “Why single us out, look at them”. If an Indian woman had said something similar I’m sure an article would have appeared somewhere in cyberspace saying something like “why single us out, how about the Arabs?” As an earlier commenter pointed out Eltahawy is an Arab and a woman hence the treatment of women in her culture is something that concerns her. There’s no reason why we can’t criticize Indian culture for it’s downfalls.

  • Pingback: Dear Mona Eltahawy: You do not represent "Us"

  • leia

    this is off topic a bit- but i’d like to comment on the attitude of a lot of ppl on the net on the state of the muslim world. On how they are patriarchal corrupt societies, on how islam seems to not have been a positive effect etc, and the opinion of some typically islamophobes, that the west is inherently superior, in everything. conclusions, arguments cosidering these facts blindly are inherently flawed.why?
    consider that most of the west became democracies within the last century, before which they were colonial powers, over almost the entire muslim world. the west has been free from any occupation, from foreign masters from the terrible effect of power hungry imperialism, for centuries. they had the peace and freedom, as well as wealth, from conquests, to become as great as they are now. Consider Muslim countries. Most of them are only decades old, and have had only so much time to deal with the rapidly changing world. rampant corruption, social ills are all caused by various historic factors, which should be taken into account.(reading up the immediate impact of Islam, of changing the lowly Arabs and early Muslims into the greatest Civilization ever seen in the world then could show a clearer pic of the incredible power of change of Islam)consider this. the fact that most Muslim countries were under foreign rule, and had their borders redrawn by those same foreign powers, their wealth stolen,etc it is a miracle that they are in such a high standing as they are now. contrast them with non-Muslim countries that were colonialized(this is solely for the sake of arguments, no disrespect intended), like those in Africa. The west may be at a great and admirable point of civilization, but they did not have to deal with what many of the rest of the world had to,(a lot of which was caused by certain western powers) to achieve greatness.Its illogical to compare the west with the Muslim world , and go ‘what savages!’or something like that.putting all those factors in, where we Muslims stand now is nothing short of incredible.

  • http://danielibnzayd.wordpress.com Daniel Ibn Zayd

    Laws are written by those in power to maintain that power. To abide by them, especially if they are not just, is to be complicit in that injustice. There are revolutions taking place all over the planet, and you would argue we need to do this “within the law”? This is an equivalent oppression, and maintaining such a line is equally oppressive.

  • Believing Atheist

    “Human REASON. Far far older than “law”.”

    ROTFL :)

    Human Reason created international law and the UN. These two things did not fall from the sky. (But this poster is delusional and so might believe that it did).

    In fact a philosopher named Immanuel Kant set the foundations for what would later become the League of Nations and the UN
    http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kant/kant1.htm

  • Géji

    “If you choose to ignore international law who determines what is right and what is wrong on an international level?”

    LOL. Is’t me? – giving the disastrous bordel “international level” that is – or does it seem funny somehow in same sentence – choose / right/ wrong/ ignore/ level/ law/ international/ -

    Question, Quote – who determines what is right and what is wrong ? –

    Human REASON. Far far older than “law”.

  • Believing Atheist

    A liar who once claimed that Hamas Charter did not want the elimination/genocide of Jews and who doesn’t have the guts to respond to me directly so does it indirectly via a reply to another poster has this absurdity/garbage to say:

    “Unfortunately, there are those who for some unknown reason, even though they seem to be having no problem using their God-giving conscience/common sense on other areas, would not hesitate when it comes to the history of the land of Palestine and it’s people, to abandon this God-giving reason/rational to bite into the wildest irrational, nonsensical rubbish only dare spewed and uttered by the most extreme irrational, fanatical cases of Zionism.”

    This poster must then concede that the PLO is also a Zionist entity since it recognized Israel as a state in 1993. I do the same and I am in favor of a two-state solution. Palestinians turning Zionists? Hmmmm.

    @JSB,

    Thanks for the assist.

  • This guy

    I’m pretty sure FGM doesn’t happen to baby girls but to pubescent girls. Since babies usually don’t have much in the way of external genitalia.LW must take place outside of an English-speaking country.

  • pai

    do you mean African American? ” Imagine, for instance, an American feminist arguing for greater rights for African women, while at the same time assailing the black race, African culture, and traditional tribal religion.” I ask since you seem to be trying to make a parallel, in that “Eltahawy has succeeded in alienating her own audience.” This would suggest that if Mona is alienating her own audience, then an American would be alienating her own audience – the Africans. How are Africans the audience of some American?

  • Believing Atheist

    @Nur,

    “Now…back to the women’s rights issue…and if BA doesnt like it…so damned what.”

    I am all for women’s rights. That’s why I linked to Human Rights Watch in order to show women’s rights violations throughout the world. So once again you are spreading falsehood.

  • Believing Atheist

    @Palestinian,

    I know it’s your land. I also know that your people were ethniclly cleansed from that land. I know that countless many now suffer in refugee camps. I know that countless many face unemployment and poverty in an open-air prison known as Gaza. I know that settlements are decreasing your land day by day. I know that your people face harassment and violence from settlers. I know that they were massacred in Israel’s assault on Gaza.

    But I as a human being am powerless to stop all of this from happening unless of course I cite the law. And it is because I can cite the law that I can condemn Israel. I can tell Israel that is has committed countless human rights violations.

    Here are a list of a few:
    http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/israel-and-occupied-territories

    However, if I cite the law I must also acknowledge that Israel is a state. I can’t cherry-pick the law.

    Even your own people and entities such as the PLO recognized Israel as a state in 1993
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

    And in exchange Israel recognized PLO.

    Please tell me how you will achieve the one-state solution? Meaning, how will you compel Israel to annex the Palestinian territories and give Palestinians citizenship? I don’t see anyway of persuading them. They are adamant in sustaining a Jewish majority.

  • Just Stopping By

    “I fail to see how someone whose ancestors were born in various regions of Europe and America can have their ancestors in a region NOWHERE NEAR either continent. It makes zero sense.”

    And here I thought that the most current science says that our ancestors originally came from Africa. By extrapolation, the sentence also implies that everyone’s ancestors were all from somewhere near where they are now, and not from some region far away. We, of course, know that is not true.

    I understand the commenter’s anger and frustration, but making claims that just go against science and common sense do not help one’s cause.

  • NurAlia

    The problem here is…we dont hear from REAL Muslim women about how they feel, what they think and so on.

    In the west, those that speak for Muslim women are not Muslim women. Of course, some claim to be ‘ex Muslim’, and if thier relationship with thier husbands, fathers, and the males around them was thier cause for loosing faith…they generalize it with Islam as an ‘excuse’ for thier leaving.

    We..the Muslims…must not ignore ANY woman being abused. We dont sort people into groups, and the cause of Arab women being abused is the same for Asian women being abused…and so on.

    I think the author has the right notion…but too the wrong road to get there. Rather than discussing the abuse of women in general, she made it ‘racial’.

    What she says is true…but true among all abusers of women. Some of them do actually ‘hate’ women, and alot of them simply learned to abuse women from the example of thier parents, culture, and even…yes…thier faulty interpretation of ANY religion.

    We should take this oppurtunity to discuss the rights of women.

  • NurAlia

    What we need to be dealing with as Muslims is womens rights…not Israel or Zionism.

    Let us not always let other people who use the back door to decide who has the right to self determination, over and above the rights of someone else.

    Bottom line here is we all have the right to self preservation, whether we are regarded as ‘humanity’ or not. We only have the freedoms we can defend.

    There is NO such thing as ‘ancestrial right’ to anything that someone else owns leagally. You can not claim self defence to keep something you have stolen, forced the legal owner to surrender by force, intimidation, threat, or murder.

    Any civilised human being would agree with this statement.

    Now…back to the women’s rights issue…and if BA doesnt like it…so damned what.

  • Palestinian

    Some Guy is right. It’s MY land, and no rich Western plutocrat has the right to say otherwise.

    Want science, BA? How about the science of every Palestinian’s right to return to the land that was stolen from them and the right to have ONE STATE, and that state’s name is Palestine.

    Some things are best left to the experts(me & every other Palestinian).

  • Géji

    @Palestinian says: “If you were seeking to rub a bunch of Palestinians the wrong way, congrats. You did it. Palestine is the land of MY ancestors. Palestine is the land of MY HUSBAND’S ancestors. I fail to see how someone whose ancestors were born in various regions of Europe and America can have their ancestors in a region NOWHERE NEAR either continent. It makes zero sense. You’re spouting BS. Kinda sad for an atheist, as we’re supposed to be the rational thinkers and stuff in this world. Next I suppose you’ll tell me my roots are from Jordan or Egypt. Just for future reference don’t go there.”

    @Palestinian

    Very well said. Although I sincerely fail to see how on earth in God’s name, anyone with a bit of conscience and a bit of common sense would to even for a fraction of a second dare think otherwise. Unfortunately, there are those who for some unknown reason, even though they seem to be having no problem using their God-giving conscience/common sense on other areas, would not hesitate when it comes to the history of the land of Palestine and it’s people, to abandon this God-giving reason/rational to bite into the wildest irrational, nonsensical rubbish only dare spewed and uttered by the most extreme irrational, fanatical cases of Zionism. And please take note that whether they’re Christian or Jew or even atheist, most that are even staunch Zionists and supporters of the “Jewish state”, do Not even go as far as to utter such nonsense- (i.e., that Jews belong to Palestine because of “race”)-. Most of Zionists don’t believe that. So they know that their claims of Jews having “right to posses” Palestine, is purely based on very very lame unsound grounds. If anything whatsoever at all, they try to find a bit tiny comfort in their HUGE discomfort, even though they clearly know well how very irrational is to base “land claims” on religious ground, nonetheless, they have none BUT that. But also, I believe that they think, – since Jews have immigrated to Palestine anyway, though it was by force without asking the least permission of the indigenous owners of the land, sort of à la America/Canada/Australia fashion. And no matter from which continent or country they’ve immigrated. No matter from which race or ethnic they may be. And no matter how unjust and dreadful was such immigration to indigenous Palestinians and their land, beginning some 80 years ago. No matter how such injustices and theft of their land is continuing on happening to the people of Palestine, nevertheless – Jews are there now, and there is no way reversing that. So they believe that the people of Palestine have no choice BUT to deal and WORK with that reality. And in that sense, I agree with them, Palestinians have to find a way to forgive what happen and learn to live peacefully with the immigrant Jews. But make no mistake, what happened to Palestinian people, if we classify by order of most atrocious human cruelty in history, is one of the Top of the list. Only second to mass killing, which is genocide.

    But the painful to watch nonsensical beings that utters and believes such nonsense, are a tiny fraction of religiously extremists, Zionist zealous, that believes A)- Jews equate “a race”, even though there are white Jews as the day, just as there are black Jews as the night, kind of ebony and ivory. —- And that believes, B)- Anyone that claims to be Jew, even if all it took for that anyone – regardless of who he/she – to become “Jew”, is to had uttered by mouth “believing” certain supernatural “message” that made you “Jew” in an instant. – For let’s not forget that Judaism, is none BUT religious message that’s solely based on supernatural ground, “from” a supernatural entity, just like any other world religions out-there. And which can be embraced at giving moment if we happens to believing in it, or leave-it if we don’t. A message that have proselytized and still proselytizing people to join. Thus they believe that by simple tour of “believing”, you have joined the Jewish “race”, thus by extension magically earning the RIGHT to posses Palestine. And if you WISH, be ready to be on the next plane that’ll drive you “home”, where a bus with the blue star of David will awaits, driving you into some forcefully evacuated indigenous Palestinian’s house, FREE of charge and guilt. So in that sense, raise your hand if you think polytheists and the multiple gods worshipers, SHOULD as well start claiming monotheists lands, for Polytheism as far as history records, dates far older than Monotheism, and pretty much had “occupied” at some point in history, all lands. Maybe the 1400 years monotheist Meccans be ready for the invasion of the Buddhists and Hindus “rightful” OWNERS of Mecca. And of-course of-course remember that is, to aid the mind-numbing lullaby claim of “ownership” ? better “If” some “chromosomes #@^&” of the one happens to “match” some “chromosomes &*%&^” of the other. Be ready Mecca.

    The poster you were replying to – replied back to you,

    – Quote: – “I am not saying it science is saying it. Science says that both the Palestinians and the Jews share a a common pool of Y chromosome, indicating that the Jews that immigrated to Israel/Palestine are also the indigenous people of Palestine –

    Other than just be amazed at what that poster’s replied here, if we’re going to play “a science” cache-cache-(i.e., game) let me just post another poster’s replied in answer, which is far far more superior, “scientifically” that is of course,

    – Quote: – “A genetic study entitled, “The Journey of Man,” undertaken in 2002 by Dr. Spencer Wells, a geneticist from Stanford University, demonstrated that virtually all European males carry the same genetic markers found within the male population of the Middle East on the Y chromosomes. That is simply because the migration of human beings began in Africa and coursed its way through the Middle East and onward, stretching over many thousands of years. In short, we are all pretty much the same.” –

    So in that case, should European male-(whom most of them are white Christian or atheist)- that carries the same genetic markers found within the male population of the Middle East on the “Y chromosomes”, get the OWNERSHIP of the Middle-East?

    And should the Arab male-(whom most of them are brownish Muslim and Christian)- that carries the same genetic markers found within the male population of Europe on the “Y chromosomes”, get the OWNERSHIP of Europe?

    No, absolutely not, because reason and common sense allows neither of them to claim possessing the land of the other. And if we get to “test” ALL human being’s chromosomes, and base SOLELY on that “finding” to claim lands that as far as our history and memory of generations through generations allows us to go, DO NOT belong to us, thus I’m sure they’ll be probably a whole LOT of “lands claims” going on. Chinese be claiming Africa, and Africans be claiming China. Probably my own ancestry whom are Arabs by my father’s side, and African and European by my mother’s side, based on chromosomes??? I’m sure some of them would be claiming JAPAN.

    And to ice the cake of choas that’ll be going based on such discovery of ” chromosome matchings” for “land claimings”? Just spiced-it-on-top adding to the already hugely humongous Cake of confusion, religiously bases identities such as “Jew/Muslim/Christian”, and voila! Let’s start THE BEST PARTY EVER of human madness!!.

    Now, just to be fair, and I’m gonna say this just for the sake of Allah the Almighty alone, even though I have my many differences with her, I don’t think the poster that replied to you that nonsensical reasoning is neither stupid nor dumb. BUT she do say stupid and dumb things at times, just to name a few – this particular reply of course, and the fact that she is pitifully misguided Believing based on utter ignorance and foolishness, that our Islamic “culture” is somehow, quote – “inferior to [her adopted] western culture” – which is mainly my main point of dispute and disgust with her on this Site. But sadly also, based on my experience with her on this Site, what she seem to be doing a whole lot is to always fall into some of the most nonsensical utterance from the most vile irrational beings of this planet, which she seem embracing it for some period of time, to then realize after a bit of reasoning with her, that such utterance she drunk for a while were just plain and pure rubbish that are contrary to human-reason after all. Although I’m not interested in conversing with her about this subject, since we seem to be oil and fire lately, I hope someone else will try and reason with her.

    BUT, let us try and take this claim of ownership to Palestine by Zionists, from a different angle. We all know they claim Judaism was “born” in the land we referred to as “Palestine”- (since 1948 splitting into
    “Israel/Palestinian occupied territories”). So far so good. And thus by extension, we all know they also claim one being “Jew” first started there. So far so good. Those claims are not hard to understand. Thus as far goes, we all know where they’re coming-from as to their claim of “owning” that land. Which is screaming to the world — I.E., WE have RIGHT to OWN that LAND, RELIGIOUSLY, so BUZZ-OFF — . Thus so far so good, we all know is based on their Belief system, in other word Biblically. So fine. Thus let’s to work with that.

    So for example, let’s take Saudi Arabia. The land Islam was “born” as we all know it, right? so far so good. Thus by extension one being “Muslim” stated there, right?. So far so good. Because it’s not hard to understand – i.e., ” message” arose in land, people embraced, become “Muslim” ect-ect… – So, so far we know where is the land Islam is born, and why the people of that land are “Muslims”. — BUT, let’s say “a new message”, or even “a old message” ARISE in that same land. Let’s say it’s Judaism for example. Let’s say it’s “message” begin spreading in the land, let’s say the people of that land thus by extension begin calling themselves “Jews” for they have embraced the very reason why. THUS in all and all, let’s say the land as we all know today as Saudi Arabia, where Islam was “born”, where “Muslim” began, where Qur’an talks about – BECOMES the land of Jews – for for it’s people have embraced the message of Judaism, thus naturally begin calling themselves “JEWS”. So far so good, right?. So, let me ask this, IF all that happens and become reality, for it certainly CAN happen. — Thus, SHOULD, a “Muslim” who’s Muslim because of Islam that his/her ancestors “embraced” generations ago, and that had been pass-on to him/her from generation through generation, all the while living at afar-land from the land of “birth” of said Islam, “[RE]claim” ownership of that land from the people of that land that are now JEWS, solely based that “Islam” and being “a Muslim” both BORN there, before the newer BIRTH of Jewish Saudi-Arabia??? CAN that happen based on such ground?? IS that possible thus for any Muslim to go on to – fight, kill, steal, if necessary – “[RE] claiming” the land from Saudi Jews???

  • Believing Atheist

    @Some Guy,

    I think you are mingling reality with your fantasy. But good luck turning your fantasy into a reality.

    @Zangi,

    It’s not my moral lesson it’s just the facts. If I could I would’ve stopped the Nakba from occurring, obviously I can’t rewrite the past.

  • Ralph Adamo

    Of course Muslim men love their women, as long as they do exactly what they’re told. Otherwise, they could end up with their heads bashed in with a tire iron, as in the Alawadi case in San Diego, CA. But don’t worry, they will still “love” their women even after they are dead. A new law is being proposed that would make it leagal to have sex with the wife’s corpse. Of course, the Egypitian govt. will deny the reports, but Muslims aren’t exactly known for telling the truth. You’ve got it hand it to those Muslims…..

    Egypt’s Islamist-dominated parliament is set to introduce a law allowing husbands to have sex with their dead wives up to six hours after death. Critics fear it highlights a trend of increasingly anti-female legislation since the Arab Spring.
    ­The “farewell Intercourse” bill was inspired by a Fatwa issued by a Moroccan cleric last year. Zamzami Abdul Bar said that since the two would meet in Heaven again anyway, death shouldn’t get in the way of one last post-mortem marital romp.

    Critics have slammed the law as “catastrophic.” Prominent journalist and TV host Jaber al-Qarmouty used his program on Tuesday to lash out at the proposed law.
    “This is unbelievable. It is a catastrophe to give the husband such a right! Has the Islamic trend reached that far? Is there really a draft law in this regard? Are there people thinking in this manner,” he lamented on air.
    Egypt’s National Council for Women (NCW) also called on Parliament not to adopt this and other measures which they believe increasingly seek to roll back women’s rights.
    The NTC further charges that “marginalizing and undermining the status of women would negatively affect the country’s human development.”
    Along with the rather grim “farewell Intercourse” draft law, parliament is also set to approve legislation that would allow girls as young as 14 to get married.
    Lawmakers are also seeking to eliminate a reform implemented over a decade ago that allows women to end unhappy or abusive marriages without interference from their spouses.

    NCW head Dr. Mervat al-Talawi sent a message to the People’s Assembly speaker outlining the plight of women in post-revolutionary Egypt.
    Apart from the controversial marriage reforms, she also reportedly appealed to parliament not to legislate away a woman’s right to education and employment under the guise of religion, Al Arabiya reports.

    But with the Muslim Brotherhood securing the biggest bloc in parliament and posed to take the presidency in next month’s elections, the rights women enjoyed during the Mubarak era may soon be a thing of the past.

  • zangi a

    @BA “No, the Jewish state was legally established before WW2 or the Holocaust. It was acknowledged by the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, and re-affirmed by the Mandate of the League of Nations. This declaration and mandate further have legal precedent via Article 80 of the UN Charter.

    Anyway this is not even the topic of this thread, so I am going to stop talking about it.”

    So if tomorrow a more powerful entity (call it what u like, UN, league of nations, international community, XXX, YYY) passes similar resolution to deprive one group of people of the lands they have been living on for generations for the benefit of others to recreate a 2000 year old history that will be justified! wonderful moral lesson dude.

  • MaratSafin

    I am all for the enpowerment of women everywhere. Let us hope Mona Althawwy learns from her mistakes. She appears to be intelligent, it’s a pity her personal problems prevent her from being taken seriously.

    There are serious problems in Egypt and Egypt needs sane voices to help them, not to condemn them universally.

    May God show her the right path.

  • http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/04/where-is-the-palestinian-nelson-mandela/ Some Guy

    @ Believing Atheist

    “If you choose to ignore international law who determines what is right and what is wrong on an international level?”

    That depends on which international community you are talking about. So-called “international law” being shaped by western plutocrats, certainly may have the brand but not the substance

    Much of the international community supports the Palestinians. What their governments do however is another point. The majority of Canadians for example support Palestinian rights, despite the fact that the Harper government.

    “If you wish to ignore international law, this also means that no country is bound by it and so each nation can do whatever it pleases, so do you wish to have a world of utter anarchy?”

    A world of anarchy certainly would be much better than the modern world where the West can rape and pillage whomever it wants, all under the guise of “democracy” and “human rights” no less.

    Again what you are calling “international law” has absolutely NO moral compass telling Palestinians they do not have a right to their own land, when that same “international law” is being shaped by the demonic alliance of western plutocrats and zio-nazism

    “You cannot be an agnostic on the law. It is a one package deal as Finkelstein said. If you have a right to walk on the green it means that you have an obligation to stop on the red (also from Finkelstein).”

    NO ! A law shaped by western plutocrats has no moral value for me, nor should it have any for you

    “So if you believe international law has no validity, then the right of self-determinism also has no validity and say goodbye to Palestinian rights.”

    HORSE CRAP !

    THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO THEIR LAND BECAUSE THEY LIVED THERE AND HAD IT FOR CENTURIES BEFORE BRITISH AND ZIONISTS COLONIALISTS CAME ON THE SCENE

  • rookie

    Thruth Seeker says:
    “He must have hated his mother immensely for dumping him with the Bedouin family to be raised in his infancy when children need love and affection most.No wonder,he did not know what love meant.”

    Listen up you moron,
    youd better read something else than Bobby`s hate page.
    Even Wikipedia would help you treat your disease.
    It is easy.

  • Reynardine

    Whether this lady or any other is full of It or not, an ad feminam impeachment of her arguments based on whether she is married or how many children she has is fifty years out of date. Answer the arguments as they stand.

  • RDS

    tl;dr:

    “Mona Eltahawy’s analysis of the problems afflicting females in Middle East gives a correct description of the symptoms, but critically misdiagnoses it.

    It’s not the content that I have a problem with it, it’s the cause, according to her, of the problem she describes that I have a problem with.”

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