Summer Seale wrote:

First of all, there are numerous passages within the Koran which call for the death of unbelievers. In fact, there are even passages specifically calling for the death of Jews on “Judgement Day”.

RESPONSE:

The “numerous passages…that call for the death of unbelievers” aren’t civilians or non-combatants, they’re ENEMY-SOLDIERS that Muslims are commanded to fight IN BATTLE. When the Quran says “Fight the disbelievers” it’s always referring to the COMBATANTS, not civilians! The Quran says “Fight those who FIGHT YOU” but “Do not transgress the limits” repeatedly. IN contrast, the Bible says “utterly destroy them”, “show no pity”, and “leave NOTHING that breathes” (even animals). The Islamic war-doctrine EXPLICITLY forbids the killing of women and children, the Bible EXPLICITLY condones the killing of women and children. I see the contrast! Combatants are enemy-soldiers, not civilians, which Muslims are forbidden to harm (Q. 6:61, 60:8). The Quran never says to KILL NON-MUSLIMS, it says FIGHT THOSE YOU FIGHT YOU! They are COMBATANTS among the Disbelievers, Muslims are forbidden to harm non-combatant disbelievers (8:61, 60:8). Also, the Righteous Non-disbelievers among the Jews/Christians are REWARDED (2:62), they didn’t believe NOR disbelieve. What does Christianity say about Righteous Non-Christians who didn’t believe NOR disbelieve? Judaism says the Gentiles who worshipped the True GOD and followed the Seven Noahide Laws shall be SAVED, that Universalism is taught by Islam.

The Quran doesn’t call for the “death of Jews” on Judgment Day, you’re alluding to this Hadith:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim). From Sahih Muslim, 41-6985

This is a very misunderstood Hadith! IT is a PROPHECY about Judgment Day when Muslims shall fight the Anti-Christ’ ARMY comprising of 70,000 Persian Jews according to the Hadith:

“Dajjal will be followed by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan, they will wear (robes) al-Tayalisah (Persian shawls – (today’s Shia)) which are seamless.” [refer Saheeh Muslim]

So the Hadith is about PERSIAN JEWS fighting for Dajjal (the Anti-Christ) on Judgment Day (or near). That Hadith doesn’t extend to ALL JEWS, only the 70,000 Persian Jews who shall fight FOR the Anti-Christ (Dajjal)!

Therefore, it’s NOT a general and open-ended call for genocide! The Clear Islamic Teachings distinguish between Combatants and Civilians. The SOLDIERS of the Anti-Christ are NOT civilians, they are 70,000 combatants! Compare that to the TWO MILLION people (combatants and civilians) that Yahweh massacred in the Bible! (We don’t accept it) Muslims are forbidden to harm the Jews and Christians:

“Whoever harms a dhimmi (Jew or Christian) has harmed me” (Tirmidhi).

“It is quit obvious to me at least, that Islam is more violent TODAY than Christianity (the violence of the US is the part of the war that started AFTER the Sept 11 2001 attacks in the US by Islamists)”

Don’t blame Islam for that you foolish moron, or else Christianity is TO BLAME for what Christian Serbas did to Bosnians. You are brainless SHELL-HEAD Mr. spielman, if you know, the 9/11 attacks was orchestrated by the US government to INVADE THE WORLD and STEAL THE OIL (resources). they planned to invade the Muslim World long before 9/11 and used 9/11 (inside job) as the “justification” for killing Innocent People that did NOTHING to them. your too busy remembering “Where was I?” on 9/11 when it happened! You won’t be speaking, ignorant, don’t forget what Black Water (comprised of Christians) did in Iraq. al-qaeda doesn’t exist, it was created by the US government so americans can GIVE UP their freedom for “security”. WAKE UP

There are verses in the Quran AND Bible that can be DISTORTED and TWISTED to justify violence and terrorism.

Only a short time after Peter Keller murdered his family then shot himself in his bunker that he made in anticipation of the end of the world, another good, upstanding, Christian patriot, JT Ready, murdered a bunch of people then shot himself:

http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-news/2012/05/02/gilbert-mass-shooting-white-supremacist-j-t-ready-left-tracks-in-politics/

No comment from Spencer, Geller, and friends. . .

JT,

I disagree, even though I disagree with John Spielman as well. I certainly disagree with what Ilisha has to say about the matter as well. I suppose you can call me a contrarian in this instance.

Long post coming up, and I apologize, but I have to say this.

First of all, there are numerous passages within the Koran which call for the death of unbelievers. In fact, there are even passages specifically calling for the death of Jews on “Judgement Day”.

Before you say that such passages can be read in the Bible as well, please understand that I’m an atheist. In fact, like the late Hitchens, I’m an anti-theist as well. It is clear to me that almost all religions have inherent violence and ignorance built within. I dislike and even despise Islam just as much as other religions which seek converts and claim to know the answers of the universe. I find them to be ignorant, barbaric, and even stupid.

Islam is not an “enlightened” religion which cannot be used for violence. I think that it’s fairly clear that the entire history of Islam, from the start, was based in a sort of violence – as was the fanaticism of the apocalyptic visions which spurred on the creation of Christianity, and the history of the tribes of Israel before the Babylonian period. Anyone who believes in gods has a potential to do harm on an incredibly irrational level. I do think that it is slightly more pronounced (currently) with Islam, even though I think that almost all Muslims would never think of using their religion to do harm. But when terrorist leaders start talking about killing infidels and quoting passages in the Koran to justify it, I absolutely take them at their word. So too when IRA terrorists do the same and pull people off the street to ask them if they’re Catholic or Protestant.

I would completely disagree that there are more Muslims living under occupation than Christians. Throughout the Muslim world, Christians, Jews, Hindus, and others are oppressed far more than Muslims are. They are burned, beaten, and even executed for their “faith” – another word I detest. However, as much as I think that believing in these religions is idiotic, I would never, ever, kill somebody for it. Yet apparently this is something which believers have no problem doing to each other.

As an atheist, I am also tremendously disturbed and angry that Christian fundamentalism has become so prominent in the U.S. military. It is a huge mistake. The United States was founded as a secular nation and, much as the faith-heads like to pretend otherwise, we are not a nation which is founded on spreading any religion of any kind. But, however bad the problem is in the U.S. military, it is not the same as the terrorists who blow people up with forethought and deliberation. Indeed, were the U.S. military to use the same philosophy, you would have tens of millions of dead in Iraq. Nobody would be left to oppose them. If the rules of the military were different, they would simply kill everyone and be done with it – just as terrorists aim to do. They would deliberately target entire crowds of civilians to kill as many as possible, just to get the pictures on the nightly news to terrify others. And they would plant secondary bombs after the first went off simply to try to kill and maim even more people who rushed to help in after the original attack.

This is not what the military does as a rule. Yes, there have been many instances when soldiers in the field have committed war crimes, but these are individual acts. They are not the rules under which the soldiers fight or are trained to fight under. They are the acts of usually unstable, disturbed, or insane people in extremely tense situations in which they overcome their rigid training and commit the worst possible crime of betraying their oaths and hurting those people they are sworn to actually protect.

Such people usually end up on charges in the dock and go to jail. It is, in effect, as against the law to commit these crimes as a soldier as it is to commit terrorist crimes. And that’s where the difference lies. One side will say that both crimes are abhorrent, and the other side will only say that what one side does is abhorrent.

You can put me in the camp which says that both crimes are abhorrent. However, defending oneself is not. That does not count as an act of terrorism. An act of terrorism is the deliberate harming or maiming of civilians for political gain. Defending yourself against terrorists – unless one actually starts deliberately shooting civilians in return – is not a terrorist act. The key point in this is deliberate. I’m not saying that there aren’t many accidents. We all know that in war, accidents happen. Terrible ones. In fact, there are many accidents which include friendly fire as well. Many soldiers are killed by their own side by accident. Are we to believe that because of the frequency of this, that this is a deliberate policy as well? That would stretch the limits of credulity. No, I think that it is fairly clear that in combat, there are far too many unknowns for accidental violence and death not to happen on a fairly regular basis. Yet, however tragic they may be, it is not the same as literally going out of your way to look for a gathering of civilians simply to blow it up, and then add another explosion to that a few minutes later to ensure that one kills even more.

I would also like to point out another thing: most of the people killed by these terrorists are not U.S. military personnel. By a factor of ten or even more, the people who have lost the most to these terrorists are Muslims themselves. Is that a way to protest “occupation”? By killing one’s own? Deliberately so, in fact. Is that something which strikes you as a legitimate protest or even fighting for one’s freedom? When the French Resistance was active against the Germans, it didn’t go around blowing up entire markets of French farmers simply to make a point, did it? No, it didn’t. And yes, I know that the French Resistance did sometimes kill French women and men, but they were not generally assumed to be the target of the attacks.

No, I think that one can fight for freedom without killing swathes of one’s own people. I would say that such methods are, in fact, evil. Far greater evil than even occupying a country – whatever the reason – by a far more benevolent power. And, much as I don’t think that the U.S. military is filled with enlightened angels, I don’t think that the rules governing its conduct are handed down from the devil himself either.

The U.S. military has Muslims as well in its ranks, and Jews, and Christians, and Hindus, and even atheists. Can you say the same for the terrorists? At the very least, the rules of the military provide a place for all of those people to become the same and treat them (at least ideally) as equals.

I think it is incredibly misplaced to put both on an equal footing. And it is incredibly wrong to try to justify the brutality influenced by religions by calling on the language of the oppressed.

I’d like to re-iterate that I disagree with right wingers who state that Islam is inherently violent more than others. It isn’t, but it’s still bad – along with the rest. And, as an atheist who would suffer greatly under shari’a or “the church”, you cannot tell me that I should come to respect such a mindset of ignorance and see the benefits if it simply because it makes people feel good or because it “gives them a voice”. in fact, I would say that Islam and Christianity have done more to oppress my kind than any other religion on the stage today. You won’t get any sympathy from me from religious people who start talking about how wonderful their books are and how it gives them hope and meaning. I can go to a clinic and hear the same about heroin or crack as well. It doesn’t make it true, and it doesn’t make it something I wish to justify the use of.

@john spielman, Sir, I’ve asked-you questions that I’m waiting waiting the answers.

Threads like: – Robert Spencer to Debate Achmed the Dead Terrorist and The Dictator -

And: – UKIP Candidate: “Koran is Worse than Adolph Hitler’s ‘Mein Kampf’ -

I’m guessing it’s not being covered in the USA as its Irish and there’s a prejudice to excuse Irish terrorism there
A failed Muslim bomb would be wall to wall
Wonder what Peter king has to say on this?

I would partly agree with you Summer Sale ,us Brits are much more understated than our slightly excitable cousins across the pond but there has been sensational coverage of IRA bombs and shootings that went off in the past such as Docklands Bomb , Omagh ,Warren point etc.
Plus entrapment by law officials is not legal in the UK. So the FBI methods for capturing loopy people with wacky plans does not work.
No one has been arrested in the UK trying to buy stinger missiles for example . Walmart (Asda ) does not sell guns in the UK so your options are limited

@mindy1, when people do hateful acts.