“So, should we take that as a small win, i.e., “dislike” at least being a little step better than “hate”?”

I have never said i hate islam. I have said I dislike it, to like it I would have to think it is true and I don’t think it is, same with every other religion.

“its possible to say Muslims “are welcome” in Europe but Islam is not?”

Who has said that?

“Lets say for example you end-up working in the same office (desks not far apart) with a woman who wears a hijab, or GOD-FORBID a niqab (remember you choose to Not even speak to those wearing-it), prays five time a day, eat halal at every launch, listens to Quranic recitation while shes working instead of music on the little radio she has on her desk, ect”

2 women near me wear hijabs, I have no issue with hijabs. I wouldn’t speak to somebody wearing a niqab, in my culture covering your face when talking to somebody in person is rude. She could listen to what she liked on her radio as long as she wore headphones, same goes for everybody else in the building, and if she chooses to eat halal meat that’s up to her.

Some people on here seem very keen to misinterpret what I write.

As I said, I engage with muslims as people. Maybe that isn’t good enough for you, tough!

@Steve says: “It is perfectly possible to dislike an ideology/religion without disliking its practitioners.”

So, should we take that as a small win, i.e., “dislike” at least being a little step better than “hate”? or even a little better than the – its possible to say Muslims “are welcome” in Europe but Islam is not? isn’t just that potato potato, as “dislike”/ “hate”? But somehow, I’m sure you’re little more capable than that Steve.

But anyway, lets take this from a different angle shall we. Lets say for example you end-up working in the same office (desks not far apart) with a woman who wears a hijab, or GOD-FORBID a niqab (remember you choose to Not even speak to those wearing-it), prays five time a day, eat halal at every launch, listens to Quranic recitation while shes working instead of music on the little radio she has on her desk, ect.. Brief, Islam in action right-there, and remember your “dislike” for it, i.e., her Islam actions. So, in this little space office, what would you do, how will you be able to “like” the person doing around you all that Islam actions all the while your “dislike” for them ?

> “… every muslim is more than just the embodiment of islam”

First of all, Muslims are not the “embodiment” of Islam, they simply cant, nor were they meant to be such, or else had God made them such, (i.e., the “embodiment” of His Quranic message) there wouldn’t be a need to write-down the Qur’an now isn’t, which generally speaking anyway, a “message” is meant to be followed and not embodied. Nor wouldn’t He need to talk so much about what the meaning of ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ are, nor offer them tips to avoid the latter, and certainly not offer them chances to come-back from whatever He says He “dislike”, since they “embodied” the message anyway! you agree so far? Thus, it just goes to show you that He’s addressing imperfect human beings that are widely open for mistakes (which He says both He and His message are not) hence offering them steps meant to be followed (not embodied) in order to avoid said mistakes best. And which curiously if you remember, on a different thread, yourself thought was not a good idea the chances He gives them after they fall-off from those steps, saying quote- “either they are Muslims or they are not” – i.e., “embodiment of [sic] islam” not open for mistakes, remember?

But what Muslims tries to do though Steve, is to “embody” Islam as best they can. When a woman puts on a hijab or God-forbid the niqab you seem to hate so much. Or when a man try to find a clean corner to pray whatever he happens to be in a shopping-mall when the hour of prayers comes (I’m sure you saw those). Or when a community try to build a mosque in your neighborhood for worship, or try to get an interest-free bank, or open an Islamic school to teach their kids Islamic values, or when they ask for few places that serves halal western-style fast-food, and not always be stuck to have to go to Shawarma/Falafel Kings to get something quick in their stomach while they’re going around town, and so on. All that stuff Steve, is Islam in action, waking around trying to be presented as best as it can, not the “body” of Islam, but its message human beings are trying to apply as best possible. And if you’re so full of contempt, so disgusted, or “dislikes” as you say, all that Islam “ideology” stuff, put to action, then I sincerely fail to grasp how you’ll be able to “like” and hang-around people that tries to “embody” them.

> “I have several colleagues who are muslims, I don’t engage with them as muslims, I engage with them as people and work colleagues, their faith is not relevant in the workplace.”

Somehow, I cant help but doubt that, it remains me much of the tired-old cop-out – but its impossible, I’m not a racist, cause I have friends, colleagues, neighbors that are … Ni@@#! oops! I mean African Americans!” – blablabla run for the escape-whole.

But regardless, you know what Steve, of-course when its convenient, specially when a Muslim happens to do some bad stuff, at that precise moment, people who are right-now insisting so hard the line between Islam and Muslims be drawn, insisting on the difference between the two, at that precise moment though, they insist in reverse that there’s NO line in between, no difference to consider. They certainly do not want to see the Muslim as human being at that moment, he/she becomes Islam “the ideology”, his/her actions becomes Islam, putting Islam at the forefront for judgment and discussions, brief, the sole “embodiment” of the incident, and the focal-point to focus ect… — But dare ask those same people (Islamophobes) about their hate, all of sudden “logic” rushes in, Muslims become human beings, Islam put back-seat as an “ideology” in their hate-to-go-car, the human Muslim sitting at front, lines drawn, we hear lots of insisting – but Islam is not a race, not a human being, its just an “ideology/religion”, its OK to hate-it oops!, I mean “dislike it” – Thus at that precise time, when asking where their hate of Islam is concern, FINALLY at last the Muslim become a human being, Islam a religion or “ideology”, therefore the natural order is established, right Steve ??

@JSB, yes, I did confuse the two! Thanks.

@Sir David, It’s not just the Queen, I think Abraham Lincoln smoked pot as well actually, as did many of the founding fathers:

“Two of my favorite things are sitting on my front porch smoking a pipe of sweet hemp, and playing my Hohner harmonica.”–Abraham Lincoln

Not that this is particularly germane to the topic at hand.

@anonymous, if what you say is true then it would have been better for him to argue these extenuating circumstances, surely he’d get more sympathy that way.

Don’t blame pot blame the perpetrator. Like David says pot makes you happy!

” thus should it be you’ll choose going “aside” while a woman is getting physically abused?”

Not at all, I would hope I would step in and try to calm the situation and deter the assailant

“One last thing also, for the last time, No, you cannot hate Islam without hating Muslims, impossible, who do you think Muslims are but Islam waking around, have ever saw Islam waking around EVER? without Muslims?”

It is perfectly possible to dislike an ideology/religion without disliking its practitioners.

It is true to say that islam (or any ideology/religion) is nothing without adherents but every muslim is more than just the embodiment of islam. I have several colleagues who are muslims, I don’t engage with them as muslims, I engage with them as people and work colleagues, their faith is not relevant in the workplace.

@Steve, you said.. “As an aside”, thus should it be you’ll choose going “aside” while a woman is getting physically abused?

Yeah, this defense might have worked in the 1915. Not so much today.

Ever heard of cannabis psychosis?

@Sir David

It makes you mellow ….. er …so I was told by someone I met in the pub once …… er … when I was young ….
( do you think I covered that up well Mindy )

Funny, I thought pot was supposed to make you more mellow. That is one dumb excuse.