*botn=born

@zangi, we all enjoy the fruits of previous wars and murders. That’s just a sad fact of life.

leia points out a lot of weird stuff which makes no sense.

I don’t need a god to show me a moral path, you do it seems. There were moral people before islam and there will be moral people after islam. Personally I prefer to base my morals on my perception of the sum of human experience and my empathy for others. You choose to base yours on the morals of 7th century arabic tribes, that’s fine, if you feel it helps.

Ethical and moral behaviour doesn’t need a belief in a god and fear of the notional punishment that god will extract. I don’t need a god in order for me to lead a good life and neither do you, you just think you do.

Can you name the “many western countries” where incest is legal?

I don’t believe homosexuals should be persecuted and I support same sex marriage.

In a secular, atheist, society murder is wrong – why do I need to prove that? The only proof you have that it is wrong is a belief in a god for which no proof exists. I know it is wrong, you believe you have to be told it is wrong.

@zangi interesting question. theoretically, and critically how do man-made idealogies like secularism prove that murder itself is wrong? is it wrong ultimately, when there is no such thing as ultimate truth, or is it wrong only as long as it serves the best interests of the reality of the time? scary, cuz murder is less wrong these days especially if the victim is someone considered not covered by international human rights laws. american torture camps in Afghanistan for example. or blind drone attacks. and lets never forget palestine.

@steve”I am not aware of any french law which prevents people from worshipping who or what they want. Freedom of religion means the freedom to worship what you want or to not worship anything. It doesn’t mean you can do what you like, it doesn’t mean, for example, apostates, homosexuals, adulterers and blasphemers can be murdered (as some people believe their religion calls for) or that children can be tortured to death because of african fundamentalist Christianity.”

Who gave you the right to define religious freedom as “Freedom of religion means the freedom to worship what you want or to not worship anything” ?

And even there who gave you right to define worship? in Islam worship is anything we do to please our creator, that includes ritual acts of worship like salaat, zakaat, fasting, hajj and non ritual acts of worship, like smiling at a fellow human being, serving parent, speaking truth, being just, dressing modestly, cleaning road, visiting the sick etc. So when a Muslim women wears her hijab, she is doing an act of worship and you are denying her that right and still consider that you support freedom of religion? how come? how come?

So now you know how stupid your concept of freedom of religion is? and BTW you can’t even give a reasonable answer to the fundamentalist Christianity who believe “that children can be tortured to death”. After all it is your opinion vs their opinion. In Islam we don’t have these stupidities. Because it is based on revelation from God most high. when we oppose/support something we go and look for evidence in the divine guidance. and where do you look? in your own head. and if that head goes crazy then what you have?

you have
*genocide
*nuclear holocaust
*ethnic cleansing
*wars and destruction
*occupation of weak nations
*oppression of weak nations
*apartheid system to run international affairs (what is UN veto?)
*pornography
*incest (legal in many western countries)
*homosexuality (legal is almost all countries)
*marriage among same sex (already legal in many countries)
*sex and marriage with animals (you are getting their)

If a Muslim does any of this, we simply say he violates injunction of his religion whether or not the legal system of his/her country allows it. and if a secular man, such as you, does it? then what? how do you know if that’s wrong? in fact in secular atheistic system you can’t even prove murder (in of itself) is wrong. or can you?

Sir David, as far as I am aware there is a law preventing people covering their face in public and another disallowing the wearing of religious symbols in public schools.

I went to a private, independent, fee paying school in the UK, it was owned by a very strict protestant group but none of the pupils were allowed to wear religious symbols despite pupils coming from all over the world (it was a boarding school) and from many different family religious backgrounds. In my year alone we had muslims, jews, sikhs, atheists, catholics, protestants, hindus etc.

@Zangi, I am not aware of any french law which prevents people from worshipping who or what they want. Freedom of religion means the freedom to worship what you want or to not worship anything. It doesn’t mean you can do what you like, it doesn’t mean, for example, apostates, homosexuals, adulterers and blasphemers can be murdered (as some people believe their religion calls for) or that children can be tortured to death because of african fundamentalist christianity.

“That’s why Islam is far superior and advanced than your “civilized” countries.”

Careful, a french politician said something similar about french civilisation and was shouted down on here – wrongly in my opinion – cultural relativism is a flawed concept and if you wish to believe islamic civilisation is the best then I am happy for you, I believe otherwise but it’s all subjective.

@LibPhobe”It isn’t all relative. Human beings have to come together and decide what is right or wrong”

That’s the difference between islam and you atheists. In Islam we decide based on what God has taught us (irrespective of whether you beleive in God on Not; we Muslim do and we call that source who gave us Quran God). That’s why we are not confused as you are. and we don’t deny these basic human rights to non Muslims living amongst us (not withstanding certain rules to the contrary among some Muslim nations). Prophet gave that rights to Jews of Medina, even in social and criminal laws. So Islam is far far superior than anything you can come up with. Are you willing to advocate separate “halacha” for Jews or “shariah” for Muslims? alcohol/pork is prohibited in islam , yet Christians among by and large throughout history had right to grow/sell and consume these. islam restricted number of wives to four, but jews were allowed to have as many as they wanted because their religion of the time allowed it. so while islam stance on religion is different than yours, as you can see islam is indeed superior to yours in religious freedoms. what islam dislikes is people leaving islam or religion or trying to come up with new religions. well we have a difference here. and we are not ashamed because of this.

btw we are not discussing penalty for apostasy here. I am just pointing it out that if you are willing to trample upon rights of religious minorities (jews, muslims, sikhs, catholics etc) among you, then you have absolutely no business criticizing muslim countries who restrict rights of non muslims among them. and as “leia” pointed it out, death for apostasy is not the only punishment. an apostate can simply be forgiven if he didn’t do anything which can be considered treason with state. but then that’s a different topic.

the fact that most muslim countries have alternate accomodations for muslim women show that muslim countries, however behind we are, are in many ways more tolerant religiously than certain european countries. i’m rather surprised at any american advocating harsh french laws. france is openly and widely known as one of the most extreme secular countries. America, contrastingly would definitely accomodate religious sensitivites, which is why America is great. i don’t know why ppl fear shariah so much over there, shariah arrived there hundreds of years ago,and still exists, in the form of some of the most humane laws in the world. Although Americans are not mostly muslims, they follow islam in so many aspects of society,in ethical practices, morality, human rights, social welfare,etc. any civilisation practicing reasoning, rational thinking, etc, important islamic principles, will eventually be lead to the highest and best principles.( incidentally i’ve heard that the Quran was studied in the drafting of the constituion. normal/expected really. Back than muslim nations were great, and great civilisatiions always learn from other great civilisations)