Robert Spencer

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Pamela Geller

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Bat Ye'or

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Brigitte Gabriel

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Daniel Pipes

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Debbie Schlussel

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Walid Shoebat

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Joe Kaufman

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Wafa Sultan

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Geert Wilders

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The Nuclear Card

Warrior Monks: The Untold Story of Buddhist Violence (I)

Posted on 29 July 2012 by Danios

This is a part of LoonWatch’s Understanding Jihad Series.

The basic plank of Islamophobia can be summed up as follows:

Islam is uniquely violent compared to other world religions.

Of course, it’s just not true.  In previous articles, I’ve taken a Thor-sized hammer to shatter this myth by proving that Judaism and Christianity are scripturally and theologically just as violent, if not more so.  The Bible is far more violent than the Quran, and both the Jewish and Christian traditions have been just as problematic.

It’s also not true from a historical perspective.

Take Judaism for instance:  According to the foundational narrative in the Bible, for instance, the Hebrews were persecuted in Egypt, forcing them to flee to Palestine.  When they found the Promised Land to be already occupied by the native Canaanites, Moses and the Jews invoked their warrior god to mercilessly slaughter the indigenous population in what can only be called a genocidal holy war.

The Jewish kingdoms were then overrun by outsiders.  Eventually, the Jews came under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who sought to replace Judaism with his own religion.  The Jews revolted and overthrew him, leading to the emergence of the Jewish Hasmonean Dynasty.  Just previously facing down the barrel of religious oppression, the Jews did not lose a beat and immediately set out oppressing non-Jews.  By force of arms, they sought to expand their borders and to ethnically cleanse the land of infidels, either killing non-Jews, forcibly converting them to Judaism, enslaving them, or simply running them off the land.

This Jewish kingdom fell as well, and the Jews would have to wait until the twentieth century to rule again.  They faced several centuries of oppression and finally ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Nazis, but eventually regrouped in Palestine.  Just yesterday having chanted “never again!”, they seamlessly transitioned to the task of ethnically cleansing Palestine of its non-Jewish population.

Although it’s true that Jews have been on the receiving end of oppression for a great deal of history, it’s also true that they have oppressed when in a position of power.  Is oppression then a matter not of religion but simply of opportunity?

Christians had more opportunity for violence than any other religious group on earth, and it is therefore unsurprising that, from a sheer numbers perspective, they have been responsible for the most acts of warlike aggression than any other.  It is true that Jesus himself never engaged in violent action, but again, this seems to be an issue of opportunity rather than moral repulsion to violence: he was never in a position of political power and was in fact killed by the authorities.  But, according to the Biblical narrative, Jesus will return to earth as a conquering warrior king, flanked by a massive army of earthly and heavenly beasts.  He will then kill all his enemies.

The early Church was not pacifist as many modern-day Christians claim.  Instead, the early Church fathers enlisted themselves as prayer warriors for the imperial Roman armies.  The very minute Christianity rose to power with the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine, war in the service of empire and religion was adopted wholesale.  Once persecuted by pagans, Christians now set out to destroy paganism in Europe.  They sent forth armies to conquer new lands in the name of Christ.  Eventually, almost all of Africa, Australia, Europe, South and North America–as well as huge swaths of land in Asia–came under the boots of Christian soldiers.  Even today, the Religious Right in the U.S. leads the country down the path of war.

Not a single inhabited continent was spared by the Christian conquerors, so it is very difficult to accept the idea that Islam is somehow uniquely violent.

Of course, there is no denying that Islamic history had its fair share of violence.  Just as the Christian Church came under the tutelage of the Roman state, so too did many ulema ingratiate themselves to the rulers.  Expansion of the state was religiously justified, and the armies of Islam poured out of the Arabian Peninsula, conquering lands from China to Spain.

Islamophobes often complain that Islam gobbled up a significant part of the Christian world, which is true.  Yet, the Christians themselves had conquered these lands aforetime.  Is this simply not a case of Christians crying foul play when another religious group does to them what they did to the rest of the world?

It seems clear that Westerners of the Judeo-Christian tradition have no leg to stand on when they single out Islam.

But, what about Eastern religions, such as Buddhism?  Is violence merely a problem of the three Abrahamic faiths, as some would have us believe?

Westerners imagine a stark contrast between supposedly violent Muslims on the one hand and pacifist Buddhists on the other.  When we recently linked to a story about Buddhist oppression of the Muslim community in Burma, an Islamophobe quipped:

So, Buddhists acting like Muslims for once?

This remark reveals a profound ignorance of history.  Stereotypes notwithstanding, the Buddhist tradition is no stranger to violence.  This little known story is retold by Professors Michael Jerryson and Mark Juergensmeyer in the book Buddhist Warfare.  Jerryson writes:

Violence is found in all religious traditions, and Buddhism is no exception.  This may surprise those who think of Buddhism as a religion based solely on peace.  Indeed, one of the principal reasons for producing this book was to address such a misconception.  Within the various Buddhist traditions (which Trevor Ling describes as “Buddhisms”), there is a long history of violence.  Since the inception of Buddhist traditions 2,500 years ago, there have been numerous individual and structural cases of prolonged Buddhist violence. [1]

Prof. Jerryson writes in Monks With Guns: Discovering Buddhist Violence of armed Buddhist monks in Thailand.  He notes that the West’s romantic view of Buddhism

shield[s] an extensive and historical dimension to Buddhist traditions: violence. Armed Buddhist monks in Thailand are not an exception to the rule; they are contemporary examples of a long historical precedence. For centuries monks have been at the helm, or armed in the ranks, of wars. How could this be the case? But more importantly, why did I (and many others) hold the belief that Buddhism=Peace (and that other religions, such as Islam, are more prone to violence)?

He then answers his own question:

Buddhist Propaganda

It was then that I realized that I was a consumer of a very successful form of propaganda. Since the early 1900s, Buddhist monastic intellectuals such as Walpola Rahula, D. T. Suzuki, and Tenzin Gyatso, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, have labored to raise Western awareness of their cultures and traditions. In doing so, they presented specific aspects of their Buddhist traditions while leaving out others.

It should be clear that such “propaganda” need not necessarily be construed as something sinister.  Proponents of other religions–including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam–will, for obvious reasons, often give a positive spin to their faith traditions.  Many Buddhists believe their history to be relatively peaceful, because they view their religion to be so.  This is no different than Muslims claiming that Islam is “the religion of peace”.

The difference is that the politics of the War on Terror have caused the religion of Islam to be put under heavy scrutiny.  Therefore, there is great incentive to refute Muslim “propaganda”, an incentive which simply does not exist for Buddhist “propaganda”.  The enemy, after all, is Muslim, not Buddhist.  Thus, Buddhism flies under the radar, and Buddhist “advertising” is taken at face-value.

Buddhism’s relative inconspicuousness shields it from the harshest blows of public criticism.  Case in point: the Bible and the Quran are well-known and easily accessible to the public.  Finding the violent verses in them is just a click away on the internet.  Meanwhile, Buddhist scriptural sources are more obscure, at least to the average Westerner.  Most people don’t even know what scriptures Buddhists follow, let alone what is contained within them.

As a consequence, many modern-day Buddhists believe that their scriptural sources are in fact devoid of violence, that this is a problem only of the Bible or the Quran.  But, Prof. Stephen Jenkins points out that this is just not the case.  In fact, ”Buddhist kings had conceptual resources [in the religious texts] at their disposal that supported warfare, torture, and harsh punishments.” [2]

For example, the Nirvana Sutra, a canonical Buddhist text, narrates a story about one of Buddha’s past lives: in it, he kills some Hindus (Brahmins) because they insulted the Buddhist sutras (scriptures):

The Buddha…said…”When I recall the past, I remember that I was the king of a great state…My name was Senyo, and I loved and venerated the Mahayana sutrasWhen I heard the Brahmins slandering the vaipulya sutras, I put them to death on the spot.  Good men, as a result of that action, I never thereafter fell into hell.  O good man! When we accept and defend the Mahayana sutras, we possess innumerable virtues.” [3]

Porf. Paul Demieville writes:

We are told that the first reason [to put the Brahmins to death] was out of pity [for them], to help the Brahmans avoid the punishment they had accrued by committing evil deeds while continuously slandering Buddhism. [4]

Here we arrive at a disturbing theme found in Buddhist thought: “compassionate killing”.  Killing is normally forbidden because it is done with evil intent (hatred, vengeance, etc.), but if it is done with “compassion”, it becomes something permissible, even praiseworthy.

The Buddhist does the unbeliever a favor by killing him, “an act of charity”:

In the Zen sect in Japan, they interpreted the argument for taking another’s life as “attempting to bring the other’s Buddha nature to life” (Buddha nature exists in virtually every living being), “by putting an end to the passions that lead astray…”

They make killing an act of charity. [5]

This is of course a disturbing belief to most of us.  As Prof. Bernard Faure puts it: “‘Killing with compassion’…remains a dubious oxymoron.” [6] One is reminded of the odd Christian belief that a Christian soldier can love his enemies even as he kills them.  Of what relevance is such “love”?

Jenkins writes:

If he does so with compassionate intentions, a king may make great merit through warfare, so warfare becomes auspicious. The same argument was made earlier in relation to torture, and the sutra now proceeds to make commonsense analogies to doctors and to parents who compassionately inflict pain in order to discipline and heal without intending harm. [7]

He goes on:

General conceptions of a basic Buddhist ethics broadly conceived as unqualified pacifism are problematic.  Compassionate violence is at the very heart of the sensibility of this sutra.  Buddhist kings had sophisticated and practical conceptual resources to support the use of force…The only killing compatible with Buddhist ethics is killing with compassion.  Moreover, if a king makes war or tortures with compassionate intentions, even those acts can result in the accumulation of vast karmic merit. [8]

There was a second reason to kill the infidels: to defend the Buddhist faith.  Prof. Demieville writes:

The Buddha’s second reason for putting them to death was to defend Buddhism itself. [9]

Faure notes:

Another oft-invoked argument to justify killing is the claim that, when the the dharma [i.e. the Buddhist religion] is threatened, it is necessary to ruthlessly fight against the forces of evil…promoting the need for violence in order to preserve cosmic balance… [10]

What about the first precept of Buddhism, which forbids murder?  Demieville writes:

In another passage, this same sutra (scripture) declares that there is no reason to observe the five precepts [the first of which is the taking of life], or even to practice good behavior, if protecting the Real Law is in question.  In other words, one needed to take up the knife and the sword, the bow and the arrow, the spear and the lance [to defend the faith].  ”The one that observes the five precepts is not a follower of the [Mahayana]!  Do not observe the five precepts–if it concerns protecting the Real Law…” [11]

The Nirvana Sutra reads:

The [true] follower of the Mahayana is not the one who observes the five precepts, but the one who uses the sword, bow, arrow, and battle ax to protect the monks who uphold the precepts and who are pure. [12]

The dye is cast for defense in the name of religion.  Elsewhere in the Nirvana Sutra, we are told of a king who goes to war in defense of rightly-guided monks:

To protect Dharma [Buddha's teachings], he came to the defense of the monks, warring against the evil-doers so that the monks did not suffer.  The king sustained wounds all over his body.  The monks praised the king: “Well done, well done, O King!  You are a person who protects the Wonderful Dharma.  In the future, you will become the indispensable tool of Dharma.” [13]

This king too was Buddha in a past life; Buddha declared:

When the time comes that the Wonderful Dharma is about to die out, one should act like this and protect the Dharma.  I was the king…The one who defends the Wonderful Dharma receives immeasurable recompense…

Monks, nuns, male and female believers of Buddha, should exert great effort to protect the Wonderful Dharma.  The reward for protecting the Wonderful Dharma is extremely great and immeasurable.  O good man, because of this, those believers who protect Dharma should take the sword and staff and protect the monks who guard Dharma

Even if a person does not observe the five precepts, if he protects the Wonderful Dharma, he will be referred to as one of the Mahayana. A person who upholds the Wonderful Dharma should take the sword and staff and guard monks. [14]

Demeiville notes:

Along these lines, the Buddha sings the praises of a king named Yeou-to, who went to war to defend the bhiksu (monks). [15]

The general idea is that “[h]eresy must be prevented and evil crushed in utero.” [16]

As for the Brahmins whom Buddha killed, they were in any case icchantika, those who neither believe in Buddha or Buddhism–historically, the Buddhist equivalent of infidel.  Buddha says in the Nirvana Sutra:

If any man, woman, Shramana, or Brahmin says that there is no such thing as The Way [i.e. Buddhism], Enlightenment, or Nirvana, know that such a person is an icchantika.  Such a person is one of [the demon] Mara’s kindred [Mara = the Lord of Death].  Such a person is not of the world… [17]

An icchantika is “sinful…[because] he does not act in accordance with the Bhuddas’ injunctions.” [18]  ”Because the icchantika lacks the root of good,” he “falls into hell.” [19] In fact, “it is not possible…for the icchantika not to go to hell.” [20] The icchantika is “the lowest” and “has to live for an eon in hell.” [21]

Putting to death unbelievers carries no sin or bad karmic result.  Demieville writes:

Regardless, these Brahmans were predestined to infernal damnation (icchantika); it was not a sin to put them to death in order to preserve the Real Law. [22]

There are in fact three grades of murder, in increasing order of seriousness, but killing infidels is not one of them.  The Nirvana Sutra reads:

The Buddha and Bodhisattva see three categories of killing, which are
those of the grades 1) low, 2) medium, and 3) high.  Low applies to the class of insects and all kinds of animals…The medium grade of killing concerns killing humans [who have not reached Nirvana]…The highest grade of killing concerns killing one’s father, mother, an arhatpratyekabudda, or a Bodhisattva [three ranks of Enlightenment]…

A person who kills an icchantika does not suffer from the karmic returns due to the killings of the three kinds above.  O good man, all those Brahmins are of the class of the icchantika.  Killing them does not cause one to go to hell. [23]

The Buddha says in the Nirvana Sutra that icchantika’s status is lower than that of the ants:

[T]he icchantikas are cut off from the root of good…Because of this, one may well kill an ant and earn sin for doing harm, but there is no sin for killing an icchantika.” [24]

In addition to issues of faith and unbelief, the Buddhist tradition offered sophistic justifications for killing and war:

[H]ow can one kill another person when…all is emptiness?  The man who kills with full knowledge of the facts kills no one because he realizes that all is but illusion, himself as well as the other person.  He can kill, because he does not actually kill anyone.  One cannot kill emptiness, nor destroy the wind. [25]

Furthermore, killing is sinful because of the evil it creates inside the killer’s mind.  But, a true yoga master can train his mind to be “empty” even while he kills.  If the killer has “vacuity” of thought, then the murder “did not undermine the essential purity of his mind” and then there is nothing wrong with it. [26] In other words, killing can be excused if it is done by the right person, especially a “dharma-protecting king”.

The Buddhist canonical and post-canonical texts not only provide the religious justifications for war and killing, but provide examples of meritorious holy figures who engaged in it, examples for all Buddhists:

Celestial bodhisattvas, divinized embodiments of the power of enlightened compassion, support campaigns of conquest to spread the influence of Buddhism, and kings vested with the dharma commit mass violence against Jains and Hindus. [27]

In these textual sources, we see dharma-inspired Buddhist kings who “have a disturbing tendency for mass violence against non-Buddhists.” [28]

Buddhist Warfare provides many other examples of the theological justifications for waging war and killing, but these shall suffice us for now: they provide the religious basis for Buddhist holy war: (1) Killing those who slander Buddhism as a necessity; (2) Anyone who rejects Buddhism is by default slandering it; (3) Killing infidels carries no sin; (4) In fact, it is not really killing at all.

These are not merely theoretical justifications found buried in religious texts.  Instead, these beliefs were acted upon historically, and continue to be so in the contemporary age.  The historical record is something we will explore in part II.

*  *  *  *  *

Disclaimer:

Prof. Michael Jerryson issues the following disclaimer:

Our intention is not to argue that Buddhists are angry, violent people—but rather that Buddhists are people, and thus share the same human spectrum of emotions, which includes the penchant for violence.

I could not agree more with Jerryson here.  My intent here is not to demonize Buddhism, but rather, to underscore the reality that all religious traditions, not just Islam, have had their fair share of violence.  This includes Buddhism.

It’s certainly something uncomfortable for me criticizing a religious tradition in this way, but it seems necessary to dispel the enduring myth that Islam holds a monopoly on violence.

I would also like to take this opportunity to distance myself from those who are using the violence in Burma to further Buddhaphobia.  Such claim that “people are ignoring what is happening to Muslims in Burma”, which is certainly true, but we all know that if the shoe were on the other foot–if it were Muslims in Burma oppressing Buddhists–then many of these Muslims would be the silent ones, or even be justifying such oppression (as I have seen many Buddhists doing now).

What is it other than rancid hypocrisy when some Pakistanis are up in arms about Muslims in Burma, but absolutely silent about the oppression of religious minorities in their own country?

How easily these people are able to transfer the same hatred against Islam that is directed toward them on a daily basis to Buddhism!

What I have learned about religions is the following:

#1: Adherents of a religion will cry foul when their coreligionists are the victims of oppression, but will remain silent or even justify such oppression when their coreligionists are the perpetrators of such oppression.  This includes Jews, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus–as well as Muslims.

To this, I recall the words of the Prophet Muhammad, who said: “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is oppressed.”  The people asked him: “It is right to help him if he is oppressed, but how we should help him if he is an oppressor?”  Muhammad replied: “By preventing him from oppressing others.”

#2: The corollary to #1 is that religious groups will cry foul when they are oppressed by another religious group, but as soon as they themselves come to power, the very next minute they set to the task of oppressing the religious other.  Yesterday, the Jews were ethnically cleansed by the Nazis; today, they ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.  It is such a seamless transition–it happens with such mechanistic automatism and absolute obliviousness–that it is something quite amazing to witness.

#3: Following from #2, it becomes obvious that humans oppress when they are given the opportunity to do so.  It is not their religious creed that matters so much but rather whether they have opportunity or not.

#4: No major world religion is vastly different from the other when it comes to its propensity to inspire violence.

#5: Instead of using religious violence to demonize particular faiths–instead of using it as a battle ax to split open heads–we should hold in our hearts a continuous candlelight vigil to end inter-religious violence–holding hands with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus–and start seeing each other as fellow human beings.

Danios was the Brass Crescent Award Honorary Mention for Best Writer in 2010 and the Brass Crescent Award Winner for Best Writer in 2011.

Footnotes:
[1] Jerryson, Michael K., and Mark Juergensmeyer. Introduction. Buddhist Warfare. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2010. 3. Print.
[2] Jenkins, Stephen. “Making Merit through Warfare and Torture.” Buddhist Warfare. By Michael K. Jerryson and Mark Juergensmeyer. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2010. 59. Print.
[3] Nirvana Sutra, Chapter 19.
[4] Demieville, Paul. “Buddhism and War.” Buddhist Warfare. By Michael K. Jerryson and Mark Juergensmeyer. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2010. 41. Print.
[5] Ibid., 44.
[6] Faure, Bernard. “Afterthoughts.” Buddhist Warfare. By Michael K. Jerryson and Mark Juergensmeyer. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2010. 212. Print.
[7] Jenkins, 68.
[8] Ibid., 71.
[9] Demieville, 41.
[10] Faure, 212.
[11] Demieville, 41.
[12] Nirvana Sutra, Chapter 5.
[13] Ibid., Chapter 19.
[14] Ibid.
[15] Demieville, 41.
[16] Ibid., 39.
[17] Nirvana Sutra, Chapter 22.
[18] Ibid., Chapter 24.
[19] Ibid., Chapter 34.
[2o] Ibid., Chapter 39.
[21] Ibid., Chapter 40.
[22] Demieville, 41.
[23] Nirvana Sutra, Chapter 22.
[24] Ibid., Chapter 40.
[25] Faure, 213.
[26] Demieville, 42.
[27] Jenkins, 59.
[28] Demieville, 63.

  • Stoned Gremlin

    @Josh I love how you dismiss refutations to that white roses crap because of Muslim bias toward Islam, yet you have no problem believing anything Islam haters say about Muslims, because you know, THEIR bias AGAINST Islam has no effect on their opinions on it. Love the double standards there.

    But I get it, learning Islam from actual Muslims makes no sense at all. By the way I never had any Islamophobe actually give me a verse or hadith supporting their definition of Taqqiyah.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    Religion Is An Excuse!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7HEwrd6Mo&feature=plcp

    And also watch Ujames1978Forever’s followup video, if want a clarification

    Indoctrination

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    Okay, so do all Christians support Obama, and do all Jews support Zionism? Even those Jews who call themselves Zionists and tend to support Israel, do all of them support American Foreign policy as a whole, including when it comes to Israel? Do all supporters of Israel think they should wipe the Palestinians off the map? Do all supporters of the Palestinians think they should wipe the Israelis off the map?

    As for all the evil done in its name, how is religion in and of itself the cause of that? Do all Muslims think its okay to murder innocent people in an act of terrorism? Just as importantly, should all Christians, Jews, and Muslims suffer for death of your father, even through clearly not all of them are responsible? Many Christians, Jews and Muslims, opposed Bush and Obama, and the polices that led to 9/11, in the first place. Ask the same questions about your uncle. You’re being just as irrational the Christians who call Jews Christ Killers, because so many Jews supported his crucifixion. Never mind that Jesus was a Jew.

    Also, if religion is such a curse to mankind, why were you unable to provide an objective source that hadn’t been debunked to back up your point? Why couldn’t you site a historian or an anthropologist who wrote for a peer reviewed journal whose findings supported your position, or at least, why couldn’t you have sited a mainstream news organization?

  • Josh

    @corey all of that video is just bull crap ! As always muslims are quick to defend, they blame the messager but not the real problem ISLAM ! Of course muslims are going to say it’s not true about taqiyya and all that other stuff. I’m still not convince I don’t really believe that islam is about peace, cause I know it isn’t.

  • Josh

    @CriticalDragon1177
    Religion is the curse of mankind. I lost my dad, cause a christian fundamentalist in the white house sends him to go fight a war for zionist jews, only to be killed by sunni muslims. I have no father thanks to religion. My family was torn apart. I don’t want cry and weep for the sympathy of muslims cause I believe they are a nuisance, they go to western countries and bring the culture with them. Destroying the country’s original culture. I don’t like muslims, It was muslims the crash into the towers that my grandfather worked on to build from to the 60′s to 70′s, it was muslims that killed my uncle in Somalia and it was muslims that killed my father in iraq and now it’s muslims that is fighting my brother in afghanistan and soon it’s gonna have to be me when I’m done with my military police training, I know it is. I fucking hate muslims, christian fundamentalist and zionist jews !

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    Oh, one more thing, is it okay for good, honest, decent people to have to endure bigotry, irrational hatred, discrimination and persecution because of their faith? Please put yourself in their shoes and than ask yourself if you still feel the same way. Why should any innocent person have to suffer, because of another person’s irrational hatred?

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    You wrote,
    —————————————————————–
    I could care less what was debunked or not. I don’t want mosques or any thing islam near me I think islam should stay out of america, it has no place in here. PS I hate christians too.
    —————————————————————–

    Unless you don’t know what the term “debunked” means, than you’ve just admitted that you don’t have a case, and in fact, you don’t care about the truth. The only reason you feel the way you do, is because of your emotions, not because of any real evidence. You may have had one or two bad experiences with Muslims, and maybe that lead you to feel this way, but so what? So why are you here arguing with us? You just admitted you don’t care about facts, only your feelings, so how are you going to change anyone’s mind who doesn’t already share your sentiments?

    Also, you have no good reason to hate Christians or Muslims. No matter what negative stereotypes you may have of either group, people belonging to all faiths are individuals, not automatons that do everything a book tells them to do, good or bad. Please do yourself a favor, and think. It is irrational to hate people for being Christians or Muslims.

  • Chameleon

    @nath says “There’s nothing even close to a command for mortals to love their enemies in Islam. Not only that, Muslims are given plenty of scriptural precedent for violent subjugation.”

    I challenge you to prove your second claim with your best 3-5 examples. I will not and don’t have the time to reply to a copy and paste laundry list. I want you to put your reputation on the line by giving me your picks, not someone else’s. As for your first claim, which is the only one that can possibly be rebutted at this point, you are clearly incorrect, per verses 60:7-9 of the Quran:

    “It may be that God will CREATE LOVE (“mawaddatan”) BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR ENEMIES. God is all powerful, and God is forgiving, ever-merciful. God does not forbid you from BEING KIND AND ACTING JUSTLY towards those who did not fight over faith with you, nor expelled you from your homes. God indeed LOVES those who are just. He only forbids you from making friends with those who fought over faith with you and banished you from your homes, and aided in your exile. Whoever makes friends with them is a transgressor.”

    In case that is not enough, here is another quote, once again from the Quran itself (verse 41:34): “Good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with what is good. Then you will find your erstwhile enemy like a close, affectionate friend.”

    Hmmm – loving enemies as long as they don’t oppress and persecute you, and being kind and just towards them – that sounds not just fair to me, but extremely magnanimous. This also clarifies unequivocally the verses elsewhere about who Muslims should not make friends with (actually, “protective friends” or “allies” is a better translation): those who oppress and persecute them because of their faith or who aid those who do so. If you look at the context of those other verses (please bring them up if you want to rebut me), the same message against aiding oppressors of Muslims applies there as well. The idea that Muslims cannot form alliances, treaties or productive, trusting relationships with anyone except other Muslims is simply absurd.

    Now let’s compare this to the doctrine of Christianity, where Jesus supposedly said the following (I lost the exact reference, but it is a popular quote): “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” This sounds like good advice, and is, but if this is all that Christianity says about those who persecute you, then these are clearly not American values, nor values that any humanist would or should ever subscribe to. By contrast, Islamic values constitute 100% American values in this respect. Whether you are a Muslim or an American or both, fighting is 100% honorable and justified against oppression and persecution.

    On a related note, Christians also like to claim a monopoly on the Golden Rule, and many Islamophobic sites (e.g., politicalislam.com, run by a PhD loon in physics/math, Bill French, aka Bill Warner) will claim that the Golden Rule does not exist in Islam, when in fact it not only exists in spirit in many verses and hadiths, but in actual WORD FOR WORD reproduction (in caps below):

    “[W]e gathered around the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He said:…Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and enter the garden should die with faith in Allah and the Last Day and SHOULD TREAT THE PEOPLE AS HE WISHES TO BE TREATED BY THEM.” (Muslim, Book #020, Hadith #4546)

    And here are two more quotes, among many, on the value of mercy and kindness to everyone in Islam:

    “Narrated Jarir bin ‘Abdullah: The Prophet said, ‘He who is not merciful to others, will not be treated mercifully.’” (Book #73, Bukhari Hadith #42)

    “Pay homage to God, and make none his compeer, and be good to your parents and relatives, the orphans and the needy and the neighbors who are near you, and the neighbors who are strangers, and the friend by your side, the traveler, and those with whom you have contractual rights.” (Quran 4:36) Note in the Quran how it emphasizes to be kind not just to your neighbors who are near you, as in the Bible, but to neighbors who are your total strangers as well.

  • Josh

    @CriticalDragon1177
    I could care less what was debunked or not. I don’t want mosques or any thing islam near me I think islam should stay out of america, it has no place in here. PS I hate christians too.

  • Chameleon

    This is my first post on Loonwatch, but I have been monitoring this site for quite some time.

    @no one, you bring as evidence verses 4:89, 4:91, 8:12, 8:39, 47:4, 47:35 and 9:29 to your claim that the Quran has a “script” to command “wars for power and personal glory.” Let’s assess your claim.

    Without even reading the first two quotes (4:89 and 4:91), it is obvious what you are trying to hide here: verse 4:90 between the two. It states, “Except those who take refuge with a people allied to you, or those who, weary of fighting you or their people, come over to you. If God had so willed He would surely have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. If they keep aloof and do not fight, and offer peace, God has left you no reason to fight them.” In other words, fight those who fight you, and desist when they stop, which is a universally ethical standard of warfare, not a war for “power and personal glory.” Moreover, such an absurd claim is utterly ignorant of the fact that verses 4:89-91 address the fighting of combative Muslim hypocrites within the existing Muslim community, not the fighting of non-Muslims targeted for conquest.

    You also omitted just about the entirety of verse 4:91 — including the precondition of self-defense in the same sentence as that phrase — and merely quoted that one phrase totally devoid of context. Here is the entire verse: “You will find persons who, while wishing to live in peace with you as well as with their own people, turn to civil war the moment they are called to it. If they do not keep away from you, nor offer you peace nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them wherever they are. We have given you a clear sanction against them.” Again, fight those who insist on fighting you is the message, which is a universally valid justification for war.

    Verse 8:12 is referring to words spoken by God to angels – not to Muslims – with respect to a very specific battle in history (Badr) and not beyond that historical context. Therefore, what possible relevance could this have to politics or any “script” in the Quran to command Muslims to do anything? Moreover, even if it were in reference to a command to Muslims to fight, are you trying to make the pacifist argument that fighting and war and killing are simply wrong under all circumstances, since both the context and motive for war were completely omitted from your abbreviated quote?

    Verse 8:39 does not say “fight them until there is no more Fitna (disbelief) and the religion will all be for Allah Alone.” First and foremost, your definition of “Fitna” is wrong and straight out of the twisted Islamophobe dictionary. When one commits Fitna, one would be considered an unbeliever in doing so, but Fitna most certainly does not mean simply “disbelief” in God or Islam. In Islam there already is a very specific and unambiguous word for such disbelief: “Kufr” (and “Kafir” for disbeliever). Fitna implies acts of sedition, instigating civil war, or causing severe disorder, motivated by persecution and oppression. It is actually defined quite well by its very first usage in the Quran, verse 2:217, which lists oppressions against Muslims in preventing them from practicing their faith, and includes the unambiguous implication that fighting against Fitna means fighting in self-defense against religious persecution and oppression by those who “seek war against you till they turn you away from your faith, if they can.” In other words, fighting against Fitna means fighting for the freedom of religion by Muslims, NOT fighting by Muslims to impose religion on those who are not Muslims. That is why, when the freedom to practice the whole of Islam is restored, verse 8:39 ends with “until … the way of life (“l-dinu”), the whole of it (“kulluhu”), (is) for God” (i.e., unitl the way of life, religion, of Muslims is restored).

    However, what puts the final nail in the coffin of this Islamophobic interpretation of Fitna as “disbelief”, particularly in the context of verse 8:39, is the very end of verse 8:39 along with the immediately following verse, 8:40: “If they desist [in Fitna], then verily God sees all that they do. But if they refuse, be sure that God is your Protector – the Best to protect and the Best to help.” If Fitna simply means “disbelief”, then why would Muslims need protection (emphasized twice) to defend against harmless expressions of disbelief? Moreover, if Muslims are supposed to fight unbelievers simply because of their disbelief, why would Muslims effectively be told to leave the unbelievers alone here if they desist in Fitna, and to instead leave their accountability to God alone, as clearly implied by the idiomatic expression “…then verily God sees all that they do”?

    Verse 47:4 is a verse that is 100% in agreement with the best of American values and international norms, but it is portrayed as being exactly opposite to such values. As quoted, it is made to appear that Muslims should initiate war against unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers, rather than in response to the oppression and war committed by unbelievers, as the very first verse of the sura (47:1) implies in referring to “those who disbelieve and obstruct (others) from the way of God.”

    Here is the full quote of 47:4, as opposed to the partial misquote, to clarify that the verse is actually about prisoners of war, rather than any command to go to war, since war is just assumed in this verse, not commanded: “So, when you clash with the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overpower them, then hold them in bondage. Then either free them graciously or after taking a ransom, until war shall have come to end.” In other words, in the normal course of war, when the enemy is overpowered and prisoners are taken, the prisoners should be freed graciously or after a ransom (i.e., in exchange for other prisoners of war or for war reparations). This is exactly what is done for POWs and in peace treaties as the military norm today, in the 21st century. Please explain how this modern and universally accepted standard of warfare is in any way wrong or in conflict with the best of American values.

    Verse 47:35 is addressed to Muslim hypocrites who “become weak-kneed and sue for peace” against unbelievers rather than fight until the war has been won. There is an interesting historical context here, where the hypocrites were not only afraid of fighting, but many of them were also afraid to lose their power and profits in their business relationships with the unbelievers as a result of that fight to the very end. Muslims are commanded to fight until they are no longer persecuted and oppressed (the pre-existence of which is clearly referenced in verses 47:32 and 47:34 as a context for verse 47:35). Fighting for such a cause is the most honorable and just course of action by any ethical standard. Muslims must fight, as verses 8:39-40 discussed above state, until such persecution and oppression stops or until the unbelievers desist from aggression (also per verse 8:61, which you quoted, along with verse 2:193 and many similar verses commanding peace when aggressors desist). Until then, it is up to the unbelievers, as the aggressors, to sue for peace, not the Muslims.

    As for verse 9:29, this has nothing to do with some sort of kill order being implied, but simply to make sure that all citizens pay for and acknowledge the protection provided by the state, which is the main purposes of any government, even per the U.S. Constitution (although now everyone thinks it is to provide endless entitlements). Muslims cover this cost via Zakah, and non-Muslims via Jizyah. However, even though the proceeds from Zakah should far outweigh the token proceeds from Jizyah, for non-Muslims there is one further benefit of great value that is being received: exemption from military service, since the Muslims must fight on behalf of their non-Muslim citizens. The non-Muslims are actually referred to phonetically as “ahl adh-dhimmah”, which literally means “the protected people”. However, according to Islamophobic web sites, the abbreviated term “dhimmi” is made equivalent to a totally opposite meaning: those who are oppressed, subjected, killed or enslaved, rather than protected. If they truly were meant to be enslaved, then why would they not be enslaved to fight for the Muslims as Christian nations did to their slaves, including in the U.S. Civil War? Moreover, please answer me the following: If you were to stop paying taxes for the protection that is granted by the U.S. military, do you think that the U.S. government would turn the other cheek, or would they fight you by any means (including prison and physical force) until you do pay?

    As a conclusion, I would like to question how anything but a political response would be appropriate in the circumstances being referred to in the verses above. Or better yet, I would like to apply what I have coined as my “American values litmus test” to Islam, and compare that to the supposedly gold standard of Christianity. Unlike modern Christianity, which propagandizes some sort of apolitical love-cult fantasy of turning the other cheek and loving your enemy under all circumstances, Islam enjoins fighting based on universally ethical norms. Also unlike Christianity, Islam recognizes the stunningly obvious reality that a military is needed for a state’s protection, it costs money to support, and it should be fairly paid for by those who are being protected, especially by those who are under no obligation to put their lives on the line by participating in it.

    In Islam, as in the best of America, fighting is always honorable and justified in response to persecution and oppression, yet modern Christianity disagrees. In Islam, as in the best of America, self-defense is an inviolable right, yet modern Christianity disagrees. In Islam, as in the best of America, although it is honorable to reconcile with and even show genuine love for one’s enemies, it is NOT permissible to respond like a coward in the face of persecution and oppression, yet modern Christianity disagrees. Islamic values therefore reflect the best of American values with respect to war and the justification for it. Modern Christianity, by contrast, is simply un-American by every comparison.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    Stoned Gremlin,

    Responding to Josh, you wrote,
    —————————————————————–
    Right and christians want neither the entire world population to convert to (their sect of) christianity nor would they rather all the countries of the world be governed by biblical law. They also don’t believe that when Jesus returns all the enemies of christians will be defeated and that he will take over as king as told in revelations 19:11-21. It was discussed here on the article “Jesus loves his enemies then kills them all” It’s in the “popular” section of the homepage.

    And, really, the white roses? The group that’s so incompetent they can’t even copy and paste from an already unreliable source to back up any of their claims? Try a little harder next time. Most of the commenters here know not to trust blatantly anti muslim sources to “educate” themselves on Islam. At least the ones who don’t sympathize with your views.
    —————————————————————–

    Excellent response, if I don’t say so myself. He really needs to listen to people who are far less biased against Islam and Muslims.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    You’re pathetic. If you had managed to take the time to do just a little more research, you’d see that everything in that White Roes video has been debunked.

    The idea that Taqiya is lying for Islam is utter nonsense. If you had searched this site you could have easily found this,

    Taqiyya: The Ultimate Intellectual Cop-out
    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/08/taqiyya-the-ultimate-intellectual-cop-out/

    and that’s just one of claims made by that ridiculous video. That White Rose organization is an anti Muslim Hate group. That video has been on youtube for years now, and has been refuted multiple times. Did you really think that it would convince anyone here?

  • corey

    @josh
    yeah the white roses video has been revealed as a load of crap as you will see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz1GeyWuC18&list=PLC2D127695FBE36FB&index=12&feature=plpp_video

  • Danios

    @Uthman:

    Would you say that the amount of violence “inspired” by Islam throughout history has indeed been comparable to that of, say, Christianity? There was an interesting paper released recently by iERA (Islamic Research and Education Academy) called “Islam’s War on Terror: A Hisorical Consideration” which makes the case that Islamic history has, for the most part, been a peaceful and tolerant one and that this directly a result of Islamic values being implemented. It can be read here: http://www.iera.org.uk/research4_6.html

    Like I said, not a single uninhabited continent was spared by Christian conquerors. But, I think this is more about opportunity than about religious creed.

    Showing Christian violence in history is a good way to refute the argument that Muslims were/are uniquely violent. But, it does not, in my mind, prove that Christianity itself inspires, in a causative sense, more violence. It has inspired more violence, but only because of greater opportunity. Make sense?

  • Ahmed

    @Nath,

    Bit of a hypocrite, eh? You say we cannot take Islamic claims seriously because they come from Islamic sources, and so are biased. Yet many scholars consider the life account of Jesus according to Christianity to be way off the mark … yet you’re not questioning it.

    Then you justify the killing Jesus will do because the people he will be killing have been shown to be “divinely” evil. Yet when the Muslims killed people, you’re not happy to accept they might have been “divinely” evil and this deserving to die.

    I think you are a committed Christian, who is pretending to be secular so that no one can accuse you of being biased. Because I really cannot think how a neutral can have such hypocritical views.

  • http://the-case-for-islam.webs.com/ MrIslamAnswersBack

    @No One, But God in the bible commanded and permitted wars to be waged by his permission. Do I have to repeat the biblical verses again for you? Funny how Jesus told Peter to put his sword back after 1st telling Peter and the disciples to get real swords in the 1st place ,Luke 22:36 “Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a wallet must take it, and likewise a bag. And those who don’t own a sword must sell their clothes and buy one” And they really did get REAL swords ,Luke 22:38 ” And they said, “Lord, behold, here are two swords.” And He said unto them, “It is enough.” Perhaps he told Peter to put his sword back as he realized they were out numbered.

    You say “When we come to the Judaism, there were wars, but those wars were before the peace epoch of the Christ , the grace testament , as grace was not there in man’s life so there was no control over the instincts, and wars in the old testament were not for propagation of the Judaism as the Judaism is not s religion for propagation, it is confined only to the children of Jacob tribe” Yet the new testament which is meant for the followers of Jesus says ,2 Tim 3:16 “Everything in the Scriptures is God’s Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live.” So clearly the violent verses of the Old testament are of valid use to others beyond just the children of Jacob.

    Funny you make your argument on Bukhari yet I clearly showed that the Quran which is the Highest source for Islam said “Now if they turn away, We have not sent you [O Prophet] as their keeper: your responsibility is only to convey the message.”-Quran 42:48 <<< Over a dozen verses that repeat these same or similar words. This is why Scholars of Hadith say this hadith you mentioned in Buklhari was no longer applicable as the Quran over rides it with such verses as the one mentioned above and many others like it.

    Therefore all of these mentioned by you That "That converse was mentioned in the following authenticated converse books:
    - in Sahih Al-Bokhary it was mentioned 7 times
    - in Sahih Muslim it was mentioned 6 times
    - in Sonan Abe-Dawûd it was mentioned 4 times
    - in Sonan Al-Tormouzy it was mentioned 5 times
    - in Sonan Al-Nisa’y it was mentioned 22 times
    - in Sonan Ibn Magah it was mentioned 5 times
    - in Mosnad Ahmed it was mentioned 21 times
    - in Sonan Al-Darquatly it was mentioned 6 times
    - in Sonan Al-Bayhaquey it was mentioned 25 times<<> You claimed “That’s an order from God; does God order to kill man to enforce him for embracing the religion?
    That is an order for killing for Islam. But No, God does not order such a thing and its not killing for Islam , as what God says is here in the QURAN,which clearly says>> “Now if they turn away, We have not sent you [O Prophet] as their keeper: your responsibility is only to convey the message.”-Quran 42:48
    “But thy people reject this, though it is the truth. Say: “Not mine is the responsibility for arranging your affairs”- Quran 6:66

    “It is not your responsibility to make them follow the right path; God guides whomever He pleases.”-Quran 2:272

    With such verses from the Quran one wonders when could have Muhammad ever said what you mentioned from Bukhari.
    All the verses I already showed refute the claims of the islamic encyclopedia and what ever other NON Quranic claims and sources you used. Allah never commanded the propagation of the faith through Jihad or Force. In facts Allah says and asks a rhetorical questions saying ;
    “And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?” Quran 10:99 << In other words I God have the power to make every one believe, but I did not do it. Will you then try to force people to believe when I God ,most powerful did not do such a thing and you clearly don't have the power I have? So , sorry your claims and the sources you claim to mention are in contradiction to what Muslims believe is the Word of God , The Quran.

    You claim " I made a research for the number of times the word “Fight, kill, war, Al-Jihad, assassination ‘in the quran and converses, the result came as: 35213 times those words were mentioned in the quran and converses (that can be verified by anyone who search of those words on Al-Azhar web site over the internet). You are clearly lying, those words are not mentioned that many times in the Quran . There are about 77,000 words in the Quran and you are claiming that almost half the words are Jihad, kill, fight etc??? What a liar. Anyone who reads the Quran will clearly not see those words as almost half the words in there.And whats funny , is that when these words are mention they are in the context of the Muslims being attacked 1st, or against oppression.So your lies are exposed.You claim they are hiding things ,yet the hadith books are readily available for anyone to see. So please stop the conspiracy claims.
    And you lie again ,no jewish tribes were completely exterminated , you said yourself they captured their women and children. Ok then, that's not complete extermination. But why is that an issue , when that's what Jews were ordered to do to their enemies in Duet 20:13-14 " Before you attack a town that is far from your land, offer peace to the people who live there. If they surrender and open their town gates, they will become your slaves. But if they reject your offer of peace and try to fight, surround their town and attack. Then, after the Lord helps you capture it, kill all the men. Take the women and children as slaves and keep the livestock and everything else of value."
    So why the hypocrisy ? If that's what the Jews were ordered to do to people, why cry if it in return happens to them?

    Christ was NOT the Prince of Peace, he said of himself in Matthew 10:34- Don’t think that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came to bring trouble, not peace." Looks like you dont know your bible.

    As far as what terrorist claim, is again just a claim. Christian terrorist like those who bomb abortion clinics, or Christians who condone war claim to use verses from the Bible as well. That Does not mean they are correct in their use of verses.

    You said "One should read the history carefully, and think: Do wars, killing and destruction now are suitable for the societies?? While there are human rights, respect for the others and other opinions, or the same attitude will continue?" yes and we see Christian history in the front as the most violent and intolerant , they even colonised Muslims lands and mistreated Muslims. So do you really want to go there? Even today we see polls that Show Christians more likely to support war and torture ,"A survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that white evangelical Christians are more likely to support torture than people who rarely or never attend religious services" – http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-22/us/torture.christian_1_support-torture-god-and-country-new-testament?_s=PM:US

    So you don't really have any moral authority to speak as you do. Christ blesses the peace makers although he says he is not here to bring peace (Matt 10:34) and later when he returns he will order that you "bring me the enemies who didn’t want me to be their king. Kill them while I watch!-Luke 19:27

  • Stoned Gremlin

    @Josh Right and christians want neither the entire world population to convert to (their sect of) christianity nor would they rather all the countries of the world be governed by biblical law. They also don’t believe that when Jesus returns all the enemies of christians will be defeated and that he will take over as king as told in revelations 19:11-21. It was discussed here on the article “Jesus loves his enemies then kills them all” It’s in the “popular” section of the homepage.

    And, really, the white roses? The group that’s so incompetent they can’t even copy and paste from an already unreliable source to back up any of their claims? Try a little harder next time. Most of the commenters here know not to trust blatantly anti muslim sources to “educate” themselves on Islam. At least the ones who don’t sympathize with your views.

  • no one

    @MrIslamAnswersBack her is the full story from Luke 19 (11-27)
    11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

    14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

    15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

    16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

    17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

    18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

    19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

    20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

    22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

    24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

    25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
    26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
    And this is the meaning of the above from the bible also Matthew 13 (40-43)
    40 Just as people gather weeds and burn them in the fire, so it will be at the end of the present age. 41 The son of man (Jesus) will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that cause people to fall away and all people who sin. 42 He will throw them into a burning furnace. People there will be weeping and grinding their teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s kingdom. Those who have ears should hear.”
    The above means that no man will interfere or be a part of the judgment

    And from the Saying of Profit Mohamed:
    Al-Bukhaari and Muslim from Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of God: (and who my soul in his hand, it is soon to come down in you, son of Mary judgment just, break the cross, and kill the pigs, and put the tribute, and overflowing with money until no one needs more, and one Sajdah will be better than the whole world “) This word Bukhari

  • Josh

    @CriticalDragon1177

    Really ? I hear it all the time muslims saying islam will rule the world. in fact here a video really backing m claim. That the Quran a false book written by the false prophet Muhammed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=plcp

  • http://the-case-for-islam.webs.com/ MrIslamAnswersBack

    @Nath yes according to the Muslims as you admit, they say they fought because they were under attack. There goes your claim that they tried to spread the faith by the sword right out the window. No, instead Muslims give the reason and the Quran clearly says such verses were to deal with the aggression upon the Muslims. Yet you admit “We never really hear the other side of the story.” Ok then, where did you get your claim that the Muslims were the aggressors spreading their faith by the sword then?

    And how did the topic now jump to women in Islam? By the way Muslim women can still own and run business and do so. Women can still initiate a divorce in Islam its called a KHULA.

    And you are wrong again, The verses I quoted about fighting clearly give the reason and its not rejection of Islam , read again :
    Quran 2:190 AND FIGHT in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression<<< reason is what?? Against those who wage war against you,

    Quran 22:39 PERMISSION [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged<<< Reason is what? War is being wrongfully waged.

    Quran 9:13 What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and THEY ATTACKED YOU FIRST;<<<< Reason is what? They broke their oaths and attacked you first.

    The reason is not just a mere rejection of Islam as you wrongly claim. I already showed you that the Quran says of those who reject the message that “Now if they turn away, We have not sent you [O Prophet] as their keeper: your responsibility is only to convey the message.”-Quran 42:48 <<>>>Now if they turn away, We have not sent you [O Prophet] as their keeper: your responsibility is only to convey the message.”-Quran 42:48
    “Say, “The truth is from your Lord.” Let them who want to believe, believe. And let them who want to reject it, reject it.”Quran 18:29

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/GargamelGold?feature=mhee CriticalDragon1177

    @Josh

    Muslims are not “imposing their culture” here in the west. Stay off those stupid bigoted “counter jihad” blogs, and stop reading books by people like Robert Spencer. Look at a real source of information. The claim that Islam is taking over the west has been debunked multiple times. Even the claim that most Muslims living in the west want an Islamic theocracy has been debunked.

    Here’s just one example,

    Islamification Myth
    http://yellow-stars.com/blog/islamification-myth/

    Also, its not like Loon Watch is denying the existence of Muslim extremists, or calling anyone an Islamophobe, anti Muslim bigot, or racist who opposes them. You can oppose things done by the Taliban or the Saudi Arabian government on human rights grounds without blaming their actions on the fact that they’re Muslims. Also there is a very real problem of blaming the evil done by some people who happen to be Muslims on the fact that they’re Muslims and demonizing all Muslims by default.

  • http://the-case-for-islam.webs.com/ MrIslamAnswersBack

    @Susanna that’s my point, IN THE FUTURE Jesus will return and use violence and bloodshed. This is not on judgement day. Its on Jesus 2nd coming. Thanks for admitting it.So does that make it ok that not right now, BUT IN THE FUTURE Jesus and his Christian followers will then use violence against enemies of Christ? Loonwatch already did an article showing how the New testament teaches of Jesus violent return here http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/04/jesus-loves-his-enemies-and-then-kills-them-all/ And please stop with the sugar coating. It is indeed A COMMAND to carry out violence. The Words ” Now bring me the enemies who didn’t want me to be their king. Kill them while I watch!”See the words NOW BRING ME, and KILL THEM while I watch, shows he is commanding his followers to carry out his commands. I understood Henry’s commentary just right, as he says of this command ,”The Saviour whom they have slighted will stand by and see them slain, and not interpose on their behalf.”

    Any well studied student of the bible knows Luke 19:27 speaks of Jesus return when loving the enemy will no longer apply, and violence will be ordered. But it seems Christians think its ok since that will be some time in the future???

  • Josh

    You guys are always defending islam. “Oh islam is not this, you guys are racist idots cause you don’t like Islam.” I don’t see you guys going off on Boko Haram, or that of the Taliban or any other muslims terrorist organization. But if a non muslim says anything about muslims you go all, “He’s a loon, he’s a racist.” Just a bunch of liberal ass wipes here. Well I don’t like Islam, I thinks it’s an imposing culture and it needs to stay in the Mid east, not in Europe, not in America. So f*** your loon watch !

  • http://Loonwatch windsofchange

    @ no one, well stated. Geoff Cavendish unless you can refute his words it appears that you are the moron here.

  • Ahmed

    @Danios,

    Another brilliant article – very informative.

    @Others arguing about Jesus – please go to the relevant post on that topic and argue there.

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