@Ilisha:

I certainly agree with your point on Muslim-majority countries allowing for varying degrees of personal autonomy for religious minorities. As you suggest, some (perhaps “many”) do even today; and I believe more, or at least more in the sense of the fraction of the population in Muslim-majority lands even if there were fewer countries, did in the past.

@Ilisha: “There are already Christian, Jewish and Muslim courts in countries like Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Israel has a similar system, inherited from the Ottoman millet”

I would be rather surprised if there were particularly active Jewish courts in Syria, Lebanon, or Egypt anymore, given that the combined Jewish population of those three countries is about 250 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Jewish_population_in_Arab_countries.2C_1948.E2.80.932008). There are no (known) Jewish citizens in Jordan, so I’ll venture to say there are no Jewish courts there.

The second point, however, is true. Israel does have a similar system for personal law (e.g., marriage and divorce). And, it is funded by the state. Yes, state-funded sharia courts in the heart of Zionism. I think Pam and Robert’s heads would explode.

@ Windsofchange:

70 “peaceful” protesters? I think I’m going to call you ‘hot air’ from now on, since you seem to be full of it. Just because they didn’t break any laws (THIS time, at least) does not make them any less thugs. Remember that these same people are the ones who protest against the very existence of Islam, and of immigration from “Muslim countries” in general. They hate us not because of our religion, but because we exist, because we are “brown,” and because its politically acceptable to discriminate against Muslims, Arabs and others in this environment, just as it was politically acceptable to discriminate against Jews a mere half a century ago.

81% of Germans have NO immigrant background whatsoever, and while Turks are a big immigrant group in Germany, so are people from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, the former Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia. (some of whom are ethnically German). All in all, Germans are the definite majority in Germany today. And when it comes to religion, only 4% of the population is Muslim, while 65% claims to be Christian, and about 30% claims to be Atheist. So Muslims are vastly outnumbered by non-Muslims.

Nobody is imposing their religion on anybody else, most certainly not the tiny Muslim minority. What people like you tend to view as ‘imposing their culture’ is enjoying culture. Nothing in German law says you can’t eat a döner kebab, wear a salwar kameez, pray at a mosque, name your kids Fatima and Husayn, observe prayers on Friday instead of Sunday or listen to Arabesk music. Germany, like the US, is a free, secular country, and citizens are allowed the freedoms that entails. If it means dressing differently than Christian and Atheist Germans or keeping halal, then so what? It doesn’t effect you in the least now does it? It expressing freedom to wear, eat, listen to, read and watch what you want to. We call that ‘capitalism,’ and it seems to be working pretty well. If you don’t like it, then you are free to spend your money elsewhere.

Its funny that you focus on the issue of arbitration, ostensibly from the view of ‘helping’ those poor, benighted Muslim women (who, ironically, neither need nor want your ‘help’ in the first place). Arbitration, as its name implies, is entirely optional and only works when both parties agree to it. Its also an issue that simply does not apply to Christians, Jews or anyone else, since its entirely a Muslim issue. Sharia is entirely a religious law, much like keeping kosher for the Jews, and it dictates things like dress, grooming, foods, even how one prays. By its very nature, it is not something that rightly could be applied to non-Muslims even if Germany’s tiny Muslim minority were so inclined.

I know this is entirely anecdotal, but I think I’ll bring it up again just for the sake of argument here. I have a very good friend here in America. He is a non-Muslim, and had a kid out of wedlock with another non-Muslim. They were never married, but they eventually came to an out of court agreement whereby he was allowed visiting days with his daughter. Now, the mother here is unemployed and lives in an area that might generously be called ‘ghetto.’ He IS employed, earning and saving money, and is far and away more responsible than her, yet despite their many conflicts he has never taken her to court. Do you know why? He HAS sought legal counsel, and it basically boils down to the fact that American courts overwhelmingly favor the mother, even when she is grossly irresponsible, and he doesn’t want to be in a situation where he never gets to see his daughter. I can’t say as I blame him.

So yes, Islamic arbitration may favor the father’s side on some issues, but secular Western courts are no more free of bias. Just something for you to mull over.

Since you are so big on lumping all of us Muslims together and painting us guilty by association, might I ask what your opinions on the so-called ‘Döner murders’ are? You know, the nearly decade long series of murders of Turkish and Greek immigrants. They were all murdered in broad day light and at close range, and the killers had ties to neo-Nazi anti-Muslim and anti-immigration groups. Yet the police never put two and two together until AFTER the trio murdered Michéle Kiesewetter, a German policewoman. Indeed, the police originally treated them as either unrelated or possibly the work of Turkish mobsters. So what’s your opinion? Do you denounce your fellow anti-Muslim bigots? Do you denounce the white supremacists and anti-immigration crowd?

The funny thing is, Angela Merkel came out and denounced the killers, only shortly after she had made her comments about how ‘multi-culturalism had failed.’ Of course, she didn’t go so far as to mention that white supremacists have murdered far, far more people in Germany than immigrants ever have or ever will. Its not even the first time neo-Nazis have killed anyone. Remember Marwa el-Sherbini? She was stabbed to death in front of her husband in court. When her husband ran to intervene, the police actually shot HIM and not her killer. In fact, the Germans even provided extra security for her killer during his trial, even keeping his name out of the press for a period of time. Funny nobody had thought to check him for knives when he went into the court house the first time.

“However, with respect to my point, according to your logic, it is morally acceptable and compatible with the values of a democratic nation to incite hate and suppression of peaceful worship via protest”

Inciting hate is not acceptable. Protesting outside a place of worship is acceptable

@chameleon, I guess the link above is too nuanced for you. Well here is another from one of the most open-minded societies on earth and without a doubt one of my favorite places to visit, Norway:

[snipped: Links to hate sites are not allowed.]

Here is a snippet from the local muslims:

“We do not want to be a part of norwegian society. And we do not consider it necessary either to move away from Norway, because we were born and grew up here. And Allah’s earth belongs to everybody. But let Grønland become ours. Bar this city quarter and let us control it the way we wish to do it. This is the best for both parts. We do not wish to live together with dirty beasts like you.”

Now why would somebody object to people in their own country openly calling for sedition? Well according to lexus they must be islamophobes!

Please explain to me how this attempt at establishing shari’a is both just and benign? Also how would an attempt by non-muslims to establish their own legal codes and societal norms that contradict islam go over in muslim ruled countries.

Chameleon, if you can’t answer these questions hopefully someone on this site can because these are legitimate questions that need to be at least pondered if they are not capable of being answered through your myopic lense.

You know that they offend Jesus in Robot Chicken, right? What do I do about that? I just change the channel. Don’t get too offended by this.

Like my father says:”it offends those that want to get offended.”

“I know that yours is one of ignorance who blindly lumps people together.”

pretty funny comment coming from an islamaphobe.. are you that blind?

@ windsofchange

Why don’t Christians apologize for the people with a Christian name who commit a crime every minute (literally)in the US. Just because someone with a Muslim name commits a crime, religion has to be brought into the picture? That is pretty convenient for your ilk, wouldn’t you say?

“That would be like Muslims protesting against Christians peacefully going to Church”

Or muslims protesting against people holding some legal images.

The group in the article are clearly misguided but trying to prevent people showing legal images is also very misguided and rather plays straight into their hands.

@windsofchange,

You have obviously not been keeping up with the news on this group, including the link in this article to its other activities. However, what makes them truly “thugs” to me is how their objective is to deny the religious freedom of Muslims: “Islam does not belong in Germany – stop Islamization”. To them, even the peaceful practice of Islam by individuals should be outlawed as “Islamization”. That would be like Muslims protesting against Christians peacefully going to Church because that is “Christianization” imposed on others. If that is not the definition of a thug-like mentality, then what is?

As for someone who supposedly stabbed police in Bonn (I have never heard of this story), a link would have been helpful. We cannot denounce what we have no knowledge of. However, to imply that Loonwatch would tacitly support any violent injustice, especially against those enforcing justice and keeping the peace, is simply absurd and shows you have a lot to learn about this site.

Useless, directionless, misguided little tools. They know nothing but hate and think that’s how the world works – what a stain on civilized society. Shameful utterly shameful. Good on those that countered this, it proves to the world that it is not without hope and heart.

Sheesh, I’ve seen more than that on my commute to work.