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The Nuclear Card

Taqiyya: The Ultimate Intellectual Cop-out

Posted on 15 August 2010 by Inconnu

This is Inoconnu’s refutation of Chapter 6 of Robert Spencer’s book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades).  After reading this, check out Danios’ article at SpencerWatch, which analyzes the concept of taqiyya in great detail..

An oft-used intellectual cop-out by many Islam-haters is the so-called doctrine of taqiyya. The Islam-haters, such as Robert Spencer, claim taqiyya is the willful deception of Muslims towards non-Muslims. Whenever a Muslim would say or write something positive about Islam, it is all taqiyya. This is what Spencer has to say in his book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades):

Muhammad minced no words about the necessity of telling the truth…However, as with so many other Islamic principles, this is largely a matter between believers. When it comes to unbelievers–particularly those who are at war with Muslims–Muhammad enunciated a quite different principle: “War is deceit.” Specifically, he taught that lying was permissible in battle…

When Shi’ite Muslims were persecuted by Sunnis, they developed the doctrine of taqiyya, or concealment: They could lie about what they believed, denying aspects of their faith that were offensive to Sunnis…Closely related to this is the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with an intention to mislead…Remember that the next time you see a Muslim spokesman on television professing his friendship with non-Muslim Americans and his loyalty to the United States. Of course, he may be telling the truth–but he may not be telling the whole truth or he may be just lying. (pp.79-81)

Clearly, his implication is the latter, not the former: the Muslim is not telling the whole truth or “may be just lying.”

Yet, it is necessary to begin with the principle of truthfulness in Islam, which Spencer himself admitted the Prophet Muhammad stressed. Many thanks to Sheila Musaji for compiling the following verses and Prophetic traditions, of which are posted a few:

“And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).  (Qur’an, 2:42)”

“If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And God Knoweth all that ye do.  (Qur’an, 2:283)”

“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye Swerve, and if ye Distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do.  (Qur’an, 4:135)”

[...]

Abdullah bin Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, “Truth leads to piety and piety leads to Jannah. A man persists in speaking the truth till he is enrolled with Allah as a truthful. Falsehood leads to vice and vice leads to the Fire (Hell), and a person persists on telling lies until he is enrolled as a liar”.’

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)

Hasan bin `Ali (May Allah be pleased with them) said: I remember (these words) from Messenger of Allah (PBUH): “Give up what is doubtful to you for that which is not doubtful; for truth is peace of mind and falsehood is doubt”.  [At-Tirmidhi].

Hakim bin Hizam (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: “Both parties in a business transaction have a right to annul it so long as they have not separated; and if they tell the truth and make everything clear to each other (i.e., the seller and the buyer speak the truth, the seller with regard to what is purchased, and the buyer with regard to the money) they will be blessed in their transaction, but if they conceal anything and lie, the blessing on their transaction will be eliminated.’‘
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

It is clear that Islam (and its Prophet) stresses the utmost importance of speaking the truth and being as truthful as possible. Spencer himself admits this, but he inserts a (huge) caveat that it is only “between believers.” As will be seen, this is completely untrue.

Let us begin with Spencer’s first indictment of the Prophet: “War is deceit.”

This statement comes from the Battle of the Trench. After the siege of the city of Medina had lasted for almost 30 days, and the Muslims were in dire straits.  The Prophet Muhammad asked a man named Nuaym ibn Masud to break the deadly siege somehow.  Nuaym said he could do this but that “this requires me to lie.”

Let’s stop here. Why did he ask this permission from the Prophet Muhammad if, according to Spencer, lying to non-believers is standard practice? Because, as noted above, the principle in Islam is honesty. The Prophet gave him specific permission to lie saying, “War is deceit.”

This is the context of the Prophet’s statement, “War is deceit.” Spencer, however, claims that this phrase, “War is deceit,” gives Muslims carte blance to lie to all non-Muslims all the time. Logically, it is pure rubbish.

Yet, when one thinks of it, is not good policy to deceive one’s enemy during war? Is it not good strategy to decieve the enemy in order to defeat him? What is wrong with saying, “War is deceit”? Yet, are there others that have said the same thing?

Of course!

In fact, “War is deceit” is one of the oldest military principles in history. It is found in none other than The Art of War by Sun Tzu, a Chinese strategist from the Sixth Century B.C. This book is the oldest military treatise in the world. In Part I, principle No. 18 says:

All warfare is based on deception.

Was Sun Tzu advocating Taqiyya? Is this something to be condemned, as Spencer condemns the Prophet?

How about the Trojan Horse, a story from one of the oldest poems in Western Civilization?

Still seeking to gain entrance into Troy, clever Odysseus (some say with the aid of Athena) ordered a large wooden horse to be built. Its insides were to be hollow so that soldiers could hide within it.

Once the statue had been built by the artist Epeius, a number of the Greek warriors, along with Odysseus, climbed inside. The rest of the Greek fleet sailed away, so as to deceive the Trojans.

One man, Sinon, was left behind. When the Trojans came to marvel at the huge creation, Sinon pretended to be angry with the Greeks, stating that they had deserted him. He assured the Trojans that the wooden horse was safe and would bring luck to the Trojans.

Only two people, Laocoon and Cassandra, spoke out against the horse, but they were ignored. The Trojans celebrated what they thought was their victory, and dragged the wooden horse into Troy.

That night, after most of Troy was asleep or in a drunken stupor, Sinon let the Greek warriors out from the horse, and they slaughtered the Trojans.

Were the Greeks also practicing Taqiyya? Why doesn’t Spencer condemn the Greeks, the Fathers of Western Civilization, for practicing deceit in times of war?

Not only did Sun Tzu write of deception in warfare, but Italian Renaissance thinker Niccolo Machiavelli wrote:

Though fraud in other activities may be detestable, in the management of war it is laudable and glorious, and he who overcomes the enemy by fraud is as much to be praised as he who does by force.

How about more recent times? During World War II, there was a military operation called “Operation Fortitude.” It was a disinformation campaign to deceive the Germans about the Normandy invasion:

“Fortitude” was the codename given to the decoy (or disinformation) mission mounted by the Allies to deceive the Germans about the date and above all the place of the landings. The latter were convinced that the British and American attack would come in the Pas-de-Calais area and it was important not to disillusion them. They therefore had to be made to think that a whole group of armies was present in Kent, opposite the Pas-de-Calais.

To deceive the German observation planes, which their antiaircraft defences did their best to avoid, the local estuaries, creeks and harbours were crammed with dummy landing craft, made out of bits and bobs. A giant oil pumping head for PLUTO (made from papier mâché) was erected near Dover, while large numbers of inflatable rubber tanks were positioned in the fields. Plywood vehicles and guns lined the roadsides. At night, convoys of lorries ‑ always the same ones – drove back and forth across the region. For the benefit of the Germans, a team of technicians maintained constant radio traffic between totally fictitious units.

Fortitude succeeded beyond anyone’s wildest dreams. Long after June 6th, Hitler remained convinced that the Normandy Landings were a diversionary tactic to induce him to move his troops away from the Pas-de-Calais, so that a decisive attack could then be launched there. He therefore kept his best units in readiness there, until the end of July, desperately scanning an empty horizon, while the fate of the war was being decided in Normandy.

Dr. Joseph Caddell, Lecturer on Military History at North Carolina State University, wrote in 2004:

Deception in warfare is probably as old as armed conflict itself. The logic of confusing an adversary is obvious, and the rewards can be realized very quickly.

On the website of the Air University, the military education system for the United States Air Force, there is a list of numerous books, documents, and periodicals that chronicle deception in WW I and WW II. Here is just some of the examples of the books written about deception in warfare:

Barros, James and Gregor, James. Double Deception: Stalin, Hitler, and the Invasion of Russia. DeKalb, IL, Northern Illinois University Press, 1995. 307 p.
Book call no.: 940.532247 B277d

Basic Deception and the Normandy Invasion. New York, Garland, 1989. 1 vol.
Book call no.: 940.5485 C873 v.15

Breuer, William B. Hoodwinking Hitler: The Normandy Deception. Westport, CT, Praeger, 1993. 263 p.
Book call no.: 940.54 B846h

Breuer, William B. The Secret War with Germany: Deception, Espionage, and Dirty Tricks 1939-1945. Novato, CA, 1988. 318 p.
Book call no.: 940.5485 B846s

As is quite clear, deception during times of warfare is not only standard procedure, but is a laudable and necessary tactic. Our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan use deception every single day to try to defeat the enemy. They would be blameworthy if they did not do so. Why doesn’t Robert Spencer condemn Sun Tzu, or the Greeks, or Allied Forces in WW II, or the U.S. Air Force for advocating deception in warfare? After all, all of these people also believe, as the Prophet Muhammad did, that “war is deceit.”

Robert Spencer’s claim that “war is deceit” to impugn the Prophet Muhammad and Islam is another case of Spenceritis. It is logical rubbish, and makes a mockery of the claim that Robert Spencer is any sort of “scholar” about Islam.

Also check out Danios’ excellent article on the same topic available on SpencerWatch.com. He refutes every single argument the Islamophobes raise about taqiyya.

70 Comments For This Post

  1. mindy1 Says:

    Obviously he thinks that because he perceives all of Islam as being at war with all of the West(obviouly not-we are at war with the radical nuts, not you guys on this site)

  2. NassirHussein Says:

    Well, we all know what Spencer’s rebuttal will be…
    “Loonwatch is using Taqiyya!”

  3. NassirHussein Says:

    The ART of War! Do you think Sun Tzu is a Taqiyya ARTtist!?
    BTW, did you know that China has a holiday called Maritime Day? It commerates the first voyage of a Chinese Muslim admiral named Zheng He.

  4. nat Says:

    Nice one Inconnu.

    Spencer also makes it sound like the Muslim idea of war (jeeehawd) is a free for all where the commonly accepted just war doctrines are ignored. Another spencerism that is 180 degrees from the truth.

  5. Jon_fsc Says:

    Excellent work inconnu, I love how you and Danios are collaborating. I am not an agnostic, but I am intrigued by Islam ever since reading Danios’ rebuttals of Spencer and now your articles. Islam is an ocean and you don’t need to be a Muslim to know it.

  6. Saeb Says:

    Thank you for exposing truth.

  7. Herman Yutic Says:

    Bukhari vol.5 book 59 no.360 p.248 (on the assassination of Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf)
    Narrated Jabin bin ‘Abdullah : Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes.’ Muhammad bin Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka’b).’
    The Prophet said, ‘You may say it.’

  8. Danios Says:

    Bible on the assassination of Sisera by lying:
    Judges 4:17-21
    Judges 5:24-26

    Rabbi Telushkin says: “During a war, one may deceive enemies. The Bible relates how Ya’el, a Kenite woman, invited the fleeing Canaanite general Sisera into her tent: “Turn aside, my Lord, turn aside to me; have no fear,” she told him, before lulling Sisera to sleep and then killing him…The prophetess Deborah praised Ya’el for her deception of Sisera (Judges 5:24-26; see also Judges 4:17-21)”

    …In short, in the proper circumstances, deception is not only tolerated, but applauded”

    Judges
    5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
    5:25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
    5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
    5:27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead…
    5:31 So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD:

    And:
    4:18 And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.
    4:19 And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him.
    4:20 Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No.
    4:21 Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.

  9. JD Says:

    There is this real cool department in the US Military called
    “Psychological warfare” or Psy Ops That do that Mon-Saunday 7 days a week
    and Herman Yutic
    Once again this is the same thing Why did he ask this permission from the Prophet Muhammad Because, as noted above, the principle in Islam is honesty. The Prophet gave him specific permission to lie and why that permission was give is Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf

    (A) He rode to the Quraish at Mecca, in order to lament the loss at Badr and to incite them to take up arms to regain lost honour
    (B)his attempt to assassinate Muhammad
    (C)later composed verses insulting Muslim women

  10. Danios Says:

    The entire issue of Kab ibn al-Ashraf is a red herring.

    What is established, and what is relevant, is that a Muslim-American cannot revolt or plot against the United States, due to the covenant of security.

    It makes no sense to claim that any Muslim-American is operating under taqiyya. Such a claim exudes profound ignorance about what taqiyya means.

  11. robaby Says:

    Kab ibn al-Ashraf didn’t just speak against Islam, he was the propanganda minister of the enemies of Prophet Muhammad, akin to Joeseph Goebbels of the Nazis. Kab actively encouraged the Meccan polytheists to wage war against the Muslims and said he as a high ranking member of his Jewish tribe would support them against the muslims in any way, even though his tribe had signed a peace convenant with the muslims. Thus, in a way he committed treason.

  12. lawrence Says:

    One of the names of Allah as recited on TASBHI is MUKKAR,which means DECEIVER.If your god is a deceiver,then what can one expect from your perfect role model and his brain dead followers.The Muslims might have a few qualities but Honesty is certainly not one of them.NEVER EVER TRUST A MUSLIM.

  13. Danios Says:

    This is a lie furthered by Islamophobes, namely that “The Deceiver” is one of God’s Names in Islam. This is false. One verse in the Quran says that God deceives the deceivers, but this does not mean that this is one of His Names. What is meant by deceiving the deceivers is that God foils their plots. Likewise, the Bible says that God deceives. Should we now call the Biblical God as a deceitful or deceiving God?

    Relevant quote:

    “God should not be called by a name which refers to Deceiving/Plotting, so we cannot say that one of the names of God is ‘The Deceiver/Plotter.’” (Fatawa al-Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin, 1/170)

  14. marco Says:

    Now now Lawrence, don’t go lying there. The 99 names/attributes of Allah are well known, and that is certainly not 1 of them. You’d be wise to actually read in context what you parrot lest you make yourself look a fool, which clearly you anti muslim bunch have no problem with

  15. lawrence Says:

    @ DANIOS:If you could list all the wonderful names of your Allah,you will find Al-Mukkar as one of them,which means deceiver.Where in the Holy Bible GOD claims to be a DECEIVER like your Allah?Can you enlighten with all the 99 names of Allah to satisfy the Muslims and non-Muslims at your earliest.Quick response would be appreciated otherwise you would also be labeled a Mukkar as well like your Allah.

  16. lawrence Says:

    @ DANIOS;A FATWA would not have been issued if it was not true that Allah was Mukkar and to call that was forbidden.Truth is forbidden in Islam.By the way ,A RABBI is not GOD and the Murder by that woman was not authorized by GOD.Your HOLY prophet,not only authorized to tell a lie ,but also authorized the Murder.How HOLY.Unfortunately,EVERY THING UN HOLY IS HOLY IN ISLAM.You are good at TAQIYYA and hence make a GOOD MUSLIM.SHAME ON YOU.

  17. IbnAbuTalib Says:

    I have memorized the 99 names of Allah and I can say with certainty that Al Mukkar isn’t one of the names of Allah. Can you show where Al Mukkar is mentioned in the following link lawrence?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam

  18. 99 Names of God Says:

    Inconnu, thank you for a brilliant article.

    Lawrence the website linked to my name explains the 99 names of God in English. Very easy to understand, perhaps you can explain to Danios what you meant, and your Mukkar is nowhere to be seen?

    http://www.holy-names.com/english.htm

    ———–

    Also check out the symphony by Sir John Taverner on the same subject, which the BBC ran with Westminster Cathedral

    ————-

    May 26, 2007 update: The BBC has announced a forthcoming world premier performance. Sir John Tavener’s major new work, The Beautiful Names will be introduced on June 19 at 7:30 p.m. in Westminster Cathedral. The BBC Symphony Orchestra under Jiří Bĕlohlávek will join forces with the BBC Symphony Chorus and Westminster Cathedral Choir.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/orchestras/symphonyorchestr
    The Beautiful Names sets the 99 names for Allah as culled from the Qu’ran, sung in Arabic. “Inspiration for the piece came to me as a vision,” says Tavener, “and the music just came to me immediately I saw the Arabic word.” He has worked closely with the Arabist Michael Macdonald to ensure correct pronunciation and stress – “the sound actually does help create the music.” The 70-minute work is divided into eleven groups of nine “tonal zones” and the start of each new section is prefaced by a magisterial calling out of Allah. Making his strongest reference yet to Islam, Tavener also calls upon Sufism, Hinduism and Buddhism in his choice of structure, instrumentation and tonality.

    ——–

    Clearly you are an ignorant bigot.

  19. NassirHussein Says:

    Lawrence, you can’t even type up a few sentences without making a mistake. Do you think your competent enough to back up your false accusations of “taqiyya” and “Allah is a deciever” with facts?
    If I were you I would stick to making posts on Spencer’s hate site.

  20. Mustafa Says:

    Lawrence please go to the website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam.
    It seems that actually you are the deceiver.

  21. TMan Says:

    @ Lawrence

    Well Mr. Spencer ( this seems to be something someone like Robert Spencer would do), the only name close to “Al Mukkar” is “Al Muakhkhir.” And the meanings don’t even match, Al – Muakhkhir means the “delayer”. It’s obvious you are just another wind – up merchant, I am only explaining this for the benefit of others. And, for the record, Kab ibn al-Ashraf was a man, not a woman.

  22. marco Says:

    Lawrence my good man
    Here is a list of the 99 names of Allah.
    http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/
    Kindly point out to us where he is called wht you have claimed.

    You’re not 1 of those people woh just comes to places like these to start trouble? Surely you Anti Islamic stance is so strong, that it is beneath you to resort to tactics you people accuse Muslims and liberal leftists of doing?

    The list is there. Prove us wrong.

  23. moses Says:

    “Where in the Holy Bible GOD claims to be a DECEIVER”

    Threatened by a message from king Sennacherib of Assyria whose army
    had laid siege to Jerusalem and other Judean cities, king Hezekiah
    rent his clothes, put on sackcloth, and went into the house of Yahweh.
    The prophet Isaiah sent word from Yahweh for the king not to be
    afraid. “Behold, I will put a spirit in him (Sennacherib),” said the
    message from Yahweh, “and he shall hear tidings, and shall return to
    his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own
    land.”

    The chapters end with an account of Sennacherib’s assassination by his
    own sons, but that is only incidental to the story. The important
    thing is that Isaiah, as did Micaiah, depicted Yahweh as a god who
    dealt with troublesome men by putting lying spirits into them to
    deceive them and lure them to their deaths

    Let’s suppose that someone who doesn’t like you should
    conspire to lure you into a situation where you would probably be
    killed. To do this, he has a third party, whom he knows you will
    trust, go to you and tell you that you will be successful if you, say,
    fly a hot air balloon across the Atlantic Ocean when in reality he
    knows that an atmospheric disturbance in the mid-Atlantic is
    developing into a severe storm that will have hurricane force. Since
    you trust this third party and are eager to make a name for yourself,
    you embark on the journey, run into the hurricane, crash into the
    ocean, and die.

    In this scenario, the man you disliked died because of a deception
    that you instigated when you sent the third party to lure him into an
    undertaking that you knew would probably result in his death. In that
    case, are you guilty of lying, even though you didn’t personally speak
    to the man who was killed?

  24. roby Says:

    @lauraence

    did j man use parables to conceal his identity to the outsiders? j man claimed to be a god right? if he had gone around in holy of holies claiming to be a god, what would the authourities do to him? they would have nailed him instantly. j man got to hide his crazy claims by putting them in coded/parabolic lines.

  25. f till Says:

    Jehoshaphat chose to go to Ramoth-gilead too (1 Kings 22:29), so
    he, despite his original doubt, apparently chose to believe the lying
    spirit that Yahweh had put into the mouths of “all these your [Ahab's]
    prophets” (v:23). If Yahweh put the lying spirit into the mouths of
    these prophets, then Yahweh lied to Ahab and Jehoshaphat. If not, why
    not?

    Don’t bother to reply unless you answer that question and explain why
    the deity who put the lying spirit into the mouths of the prophets was
    not himself guilty of lying. The prophets who, as this yarn was spun,
    had the lying spirit from Yahweh in their mouths had said to Ahab and
    Jehoshaphat, “Go up [to Ramoth-gilead] for Yahweh will deliver it into
    your hands” (v:6). The outcome of the battle at Ramoth-gilead clearly
    shows that this statement was not true; it was a lie, so explain to me
    why it was not a lie that had come from Yahweh if indeed he was the
    one who had sent the lying spirit into the prophets to have them tell
    the kings this lie.

  26. Justin Says:

    EXCELLENT! EXCELLENT! EXCELLENT!

    THis is my favorite blog post on Loonwatch yet! A crushing refutation of a key pillar in Islamophobic doctrine! Keep up the good work, Loonwatch!

  27. Ali Azizi Says:

    The funny thing about taqiyya is that Pamela Geller seems to be using it a lot nowadays, going on TV and claiming to love Muslims and denying all the crazy things she’s said on her site despite it being publicly available for anyone to see.

  28. mohamad Says:

    the issue with kab here want top classical islamic scholars said
    Ibn Hajar al asqalani “The author [al-Bukhari] placing this in the chapter on jihad gives the meaning that Kaab was a war enemy.”(1)and aslo he said “He was assassinated only because he violated his treaty and assisted in the war against the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his degradation.”(2) and another top scholar Al-Qastalaani noted “If you say: How could he kill him after deceiving him? The answer is: He violated his pact and supported the war against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his ridicule. If you say: How did he give him a surety of peace and then he killed him? The response is: He never explicitly gave him a surety of peace. He [Kaab] only thought that and became comfortable until it was possible to kill him.”(3)
    1: Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Baari, vol. 7, p. 340.
    2: Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Baari, vol. 6, p. 160
    3:Al-Qastalaani, Sharh al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 156.
    so now u one that kab was any war enemy and he was never given a covenant of peace

  29. Schlaftius Says:

    @Lawrence

    You cannot deceive Muslims about Islam like you and your False Prophet, the Apostle Robertus Spenceritis. Maybe your “taqiyyah” works in the forums in JihadWatch/Atlas Farts where fools and hatemongers congregate to vent their hate and ignorance. You think can put on the Muslims by quoting some jibberish from Spencer, who is as much a scholar of Islam as Michael Jackson was an authority on Jurassic Geology.

  30. Herman Yutic Says:

    Who knows?
    Maybe one of you loonwatchers may actually seek the truth.

    http://bigpeace.com/bbarrack/2010/08/16/americas-untapped-resource/

  31. Amy Says:

    Has anyone seen Lawrence lately? Why hasn’t he responded back?

  32. Halal pork Says:

    One can give a million good names to a :D ONKEY: but it still remains a donkey.The teaching and character/Sira of Mohammad represents Islam,Just like a tree is known by its fruits.Mustafa Kemal of Turkey,who himself was a Muslim,called Islam as the absurd theology of an IMMORAL Beduin.You can not deceive the world abouit the truth about Islam any more.

  33. Kafir Art Says:

    It is interesting that nobody has refuted the first comment…
    ————————————————————
    mindy1 Says:
    August 15th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    Obviously he thinks that because he perceives all of Islam as being at war with all of the West (obviously not-we are at war with the radical nuts, not you guys on this site)
    ————————————————————
    Rather than refuting the whole Taquiyya thing, Inconnu has basically stated that all war is deception. A logical argument to be sure. But while admitting that everybody in war practices deception, you admit that Muslims do as well.

    But there does seem to be an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests there are a certain number of Muslims that believe themselves (and all of Islam) to be at war with the West (or with un-believers I guess). And that war gives them license for deception.

    That is irrefutable.

  34. Jack Cope Says:

    Thank you Loonwatch! I have used the Allies operations against the Nazis in arguments before, I’m glad you chose to as well :-)

    As for Lawrence, we can assume he’s run off now and will back on the next post with more ANNOYING and CRAPPY stuff written with RANDOM words in CAPSLOCK :-P Whenever is see statements randomly inter spaced with CAPSLOCK I automatically envision some guy with a sandwich board shouting at passers by… is it just me that does that? He seems the typical fundamentalist nut…

  35. lawrence Says:

    @DANIOS :You quoted the verse of Quran that Allah deceives the deceiver but still you refuse to call Allah the deceiver.Now if you say,Allah rapes the rapist,then would that not make Allah the rapist as well.SO make MUKKAR the 100th name of Allah.Just add an extra bead.Since you have given all the fancy names to Allah from the Quran,then why not Mukkar as well,referring to that verse from the Quran.Please do not be ILLOGICAL,My dear friend.

  36. lawrence Says:

    @ KAFIR ART : YOUR ARGUMENT IS IRREFUTABLE.THE MUSLIMS SHOULD ACCEPT THE DEFEAT AND LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS.ISLAM IS A CULT OF DECEPTION IN ANY FORM.The Muslims are the worst victims of Islamic/Mohammadan deception.

  37. lawrence Says:

    @MARCO :One name your Allah does not have is:LOVE: MUHBAH, In Arabic-the only language Allah knows because he is an Arab and does not know any other language.The Arabic verses are like the confusing smoke screen used by Muslims to confuse the kafirs.

  38. Awesome Says:

    Walid Shoebat does not speak the truth. The reality, is that taqiyya has nothing to do with preserving/furthering religion, it has to do with preserving life. Whoever spun it to apply to preserving/furthering religion doesn’t know what they are talking about.

    In terms of who is at war with who, actions speak louder than words.

  39. Danios Says:

    Lawrence says: “One name your Allah does not have is LOVE”

    Epic fail.

    One of Allah’s 99 Names is Al-Wadud, which means “The Most Loving.”

    Haha. Epic fail.

  40. nat Says:

    Shorter Larence:

    “Muslims are evil, poisonous snakes and they should be deported/bombed/nuked.

    ….
    PS. Jesus is LOVE!”

  41. marco Says:

    Haha. Epic fail indeed Danios. These silly fools should really think before they post. Their lies may work in their cesspool of hatred called J-watch and at-shrugs, but not in places where there are good decent human beings who do not bow down to hatred

  42. lan astaslem Says:

    Al Wadud also means that allah is most loving to those who do good.
    The doing good among other things means participating in jihad

  43. NassirH Says:

    Don’t you Islamophobes have better things to do than make up names for Allah? The funny thing is that none of you have looked at any list of the 99 names!

  44. NassirH Says:

    lol. Lawrence says Allah does not love. Lan Astaslem says Allah loves jihadists. The Islamophobes are starting to contradict each other!

  45. Kafir Art Says:

    We are now 43 comments into the post-article debate. Only two people have so far realized that Inconnu has admitted that Muslims ‘at war’ practice deception (as do others). It is a known fact that certain Muslims use their interpretation of the Koran to motivate a constant war with ‘infidels’. He also admits that there is a Muslim (Shia) concept of deception known as Taqiyya.

    Like it or not ladies and gentlemen Inconnu has just admitted everything that Spencer and Geller (and many others) have been saying. The argument as to which Islamic representative is practicing such deception/Taqiyya could certainly be debated (and will be I am sure). But in your attempt to prove moral equivalence with others ‘at war’ you have surrendered the point.

  46. Aamir Says:

    @kafir art.i dont know what is the problem with you islamophobes ..were u guys “born stupid”?-. ..however ..Inconnu never admitted whatever Spencer and Geller (and many others) have been saying..spencer in his book implied that muslims may well be lying or hiding their identity even if they are on telivision ..when they are professing their friendship..”Remember that the next time you see a Muslim spokesman on television professing his friendship with non-Muslim Americans and his loyalty to the United States. Of course, he may be telling the truth–but he may not be telling the whole truth or he may be just lying”..but taqiyya is only one instance of lying when there is a fear of life or lives..In fact spencer makes no reference of a version of taqiyya done by any1 in the past by any community or nation at war ..when there are plenty of instances(so many examples have been given by inconnu in this article itself)..be man enough to admit the defeat!!

  47. Halal pork Says:

    @Aamir :All you contributers like DANIOS,EMPEROR ect use TAQIYYA and never reveal their names or Identity.Hence TAQITTA is a way of life with MUSLIMS.What are these guys scared of?Is it not honesty,they are scared of?Mohammad was the chief TAQIYYA MASTER AND A DECEIVER.The Muslims happen to be its main victims.

  48. Kafir Art Says:

    Nice attempt Aamir. But I never made any judgment on any person that I thought was practicing taqiyya. I have no idea, and honestly neither do you. Bringing up a distracting, unquoted argument (spencer in his book implied that muslims may well be lying or hiding their identity even if they are on telivision ..when they are professing their friendship) from a book that I don’t have and can’t substantiate is an attempt to distract from the core argument.

    Inconnu admitted that there is deception in war… Muslims included. I offered that there are a certain number of Muslims that interpret the Koran to mean that they are at a constant state of war with unbelievers. And Inconnu admits that there is an Islamic concept (albeit a Shia one) of ‘deception for preservation’ known as taqiyya.

    I am not Robert Spencer. Nor do I share all of his views, argue his points for him, or think that he is right all of the time.

    But with one small jump, Inconnu’s argument leads right into what Spencer has been claiming about Islamic deception.

    No defeat.

  49. NassirH Says:

    Kafir Art, you asked someone to refute this…
    “Obviously he thinks that because he perceives all of Islam as being at war with all of the West (obviously not-we are at war with the radical nuts, not you guys on this site)”
    There is nothing to refute; Spencer, Pam, and you believe that the West is at war with Islam (and therefore Muslims). That’s why Spencer and his fellow loons want a “reconquest” of Anatolia and want to either detain or kill every falafel merchant, Uighur syringe jihadist, and every other Muslim in the world.

  50. Danios Says:

    Kafir Art,

    I have already addressed your argument in my article on SpencerWatch.

  51. anon-e-mouse Says:

    1. Mindy1 is a jew. when i read that post i was wondering why did she post and first too. stop giving her airtime.

    2. During the 1st battle of of islam, (for the islamofacist, the meccans decided to attack, so this proves islam was never started by the sword), there were two sahaba(R.A.) in mecca and they(R.A.) were fierce and strong but were under siege in mecca by the meccans, these(R.A.) two shining stars realised it would be better for them(R.A.) to be in medina helping our mumineen(R.A.), so they(R.A.0 tried to escape( at this point it was their(R.A.) own planning, no one told them(R.A) to do this ,ok spengeller?) but alas were caught. they(R.A.) were asked as to where they were going, medina to visit they (R.A) said. The meccans made them(R.A.) promise not to join the mumineen(R.A.) in fighting the war.They(R.A.) gave their oath. They(R.A.) headed towards medina and met with the mumineen(R.A.). now everyones(R.A.) spirits were up, because the(R.A.) bravest fighters were there.When our Prophet(S.A.W.) asked them(R.A.) how did they manage to come, they(R.A.) explained with taking of the oath. They(R.A.) were keen to join the small army(R.A.) (around 300+-), but our Prophet(S.A.W.) told them(R.A.) that they(R.A.) took an oath, (and heres the clincher against non muslims, and lying is not allowed) so they(R.A.) could not fight. they(R.A.) didnt.

    Now understand this, you islam haters, see mossads logo, by way of deception thou shall do war. there are numerous stories about deception in every war, but look at the sheer numbers that died by war instigated by western countries, still present till today.

    The above proves that Islam was not spread by the sword, it defended itself against agressors, doesnt the zionist country say it does that?

    and in Islam lying is a sin.

  52. lawrence Says:

    @DANIOS :I wonder why your Allah can’t have English,German,Polish or Greek name?Is he really an Arab?Can he not have more than 99 names?I would ask the readers to suggest more names.Who limited that number to 99 names only?Is that according to Mohammad or Allah himself?I would refer again to Mustafa Kemal Ata Turk,father of Modern Turkey,who described Islam as the ABSURD THEOLOGY OF AN IMMORAL BEDUIN.REF HOLY TERROR BY AMIR TEHIRI PAGE 187.Any response from 1.5 Billion Muslims!!!

  53. NassirH Says:

    Lawrence, Ataturk had a distaste for all religions, including yours.
    “I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the teachings of science…. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow man.”

    He was like a Turkish angry athiest. That being said, he also called himself a “Ghazi” and even said “He [Muhammed] is Allah’s first and greatest human-being. Today, in his footsteps, millions are walking. Your and my name would get erased someday but he, eternally, is immortal.”

  54. anon-e-mouse Says:

    lawrnce your mother lied about your father being your dad. refute that please

  55. Sam Seed Says:

    KILL 2 BIRDS WITH 1 STONE:-

    # Halal pork Says:

    August 16th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
    ….Mustafa Kemal of Turkey,who himself was a Muslim,called Islam as the absurd theology of an IMMORAL Beduin.You can not deceive the world abouit the truth about Islam any more…..

    # lawrence Says:
    August 18th, 2010 at 2:51 am
    …… I would refer again to Mustafa Kemal Ata Turk,father of Modern Turkey,who described Islam as the ABSURD THEOLOGY OF AN IMMORAL BEDUIN.REF HOLY TERROR BY AMIR TEHIRI PAGE 187.Any response from 1.5 Billion Muslims!!!

    Hitler was a Christian. (I wonder if the above are the same person they both recommend the same book/person)?

    I can sense Satan whispering fast and loose with the Islamophobes. You can huff and puff but you can’t blow my house down of Truth.

  56. IbnAbuTalib Says:

    I love watching Lawrence squirm. First he says that Al Mukkar is one of the 99 names of Allah. When he is shown that this is not so, he asks why Allah has only 99 names? and then goes on a silly rant. Talk about red herrings. Every time you refute a nonsensical claim of theirs, these Islamophobes simply come up with another.

  57. Aamir Says:

    @Halal pork..why do you think we are hiding?y would u think we need 2 hide?why dont you reveal yourself?..send us your 2 full-length snaps with a biodata .. why would we guys be scared of ?what a ridiculous comment..we have openly challenged spencer to a debate …in fact this whole website’s motto is to expose spencer n the likes and the hate and venom they spit out in the name of right to speech.
    @lawrence..it’s gd to know ur not a blind follower of spencer..but 99.9% of his works are bullshit…and dats what this dis website is trying to prove and has proven a lot of times…we do accept taqiyya has been used by few muslims but we do condemn their use to spread terror..but what is the point is raking up the issue of taqiyya and labelling all muslims as liers ?do you think it is rational and makes sense.?this whole accusation of muslims using taqiyya to deceive non muslims and then using jihad to spread terror and whereever they go…is a BIG lie(we proved it)..and it is aimed at spreading animosity ,hatred and bigotry against muslims ..n we all know the result of this if we take a look at the past ..what happened with the jews..i mean the holocaust and the hatred for them in europe..don’t u think what anti-semitism is to jews ..islamophobia is to muslims?..But i know this wont make sense to you guys .if it did ..u would have appreciated the kind of work loonwatch is doing..n 1 more thing why are u obsessed with the names of allah? why cant u stick to the topic ?u have been refuted so many times by danios and others..you could not defend a single point of urs dude..get a life man..

  58. Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

    anon-e-mouse

    Mindy1 is a Jew so what? Some of our best allies in fighting Islamophobia are Jews, and they do a far better job than people like you.

    If you’re a Jew hater, you’re in the wrong time. You are the one that shouldn’t be given airtime here.

  59. Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

    Sorry i meant to say “wrong place” not “wrong time”

  60. Alexander Says:

    Of COURSE lying is part of warfare. That goes without saying. We see that in this case, Islamic thought is no different than nearly every civilization in history.

    The real question is, what’s the Islamic definition of war?

    [snipped]

    If so, then in any of these contexts, Muslims are permitted or required to lie in order to advance the cause of Islam.

    [snipped]

    Comment by Danios: I have destroyed both of your arguments here. First read that before you regurgitate your nonsense. Taqiyya and Kitman are part of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and the Judeo-Christian tradition also permits deceit in war. I’m not going to go in circles with you clowns. I’ve already devastated your arguments there. Read and learn, my ignorant hate-filled friends.

  61. almaciga Says:

    i found this verse in the Hadith, (do not know the right spelling now). The hadith I think is a compilation of anecdotes that are supposed to be taken as guidance.

    Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

    Ishaq:365
    Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

    They are not supposed to lie to each other but to use any kind of methods for the advancement of Islam.

  62. Marwan Says:

    anon-e-mouse

    I am appalled that you should attack mindy1 for being a Jew! There are enough islamophobes out there already and you kind of Bigoted mentality is what gives the rest of us moderate Muslims that have absolutely no interest in killing or converting our neighbours a bad name! As Beautiful Muslim Doll sid, if you are here to have pop at jews, then you are not welcome!

  63. Jon Says:

    there have been some great studies on the use of taqiyya by Spanish Muslims after the Reconquest – well worth the read.

  64. DeucePrez Says:

    Wikipedia HAD a decent definition of taqiyya on it until an Islamaphobe began editing it.

    Now it claims that this is a Shia’ and Sunni practice, even though the definition of the word later states that there is no such word in Sunni jurisprudence.

  65. ken Says:

    RE: Taqiyyan

    All people on occasion lie.

    It doesn’t matter if they are Muslim or not.

    If you are a thinking skeptical person you will not automatically believe every utterance whether it’s from an IMAM or rank and file Muslim.

    Muslims are not immune to lying if they have something to gain from it.

    My understanding , as rudimentary as it is, is that according to the Quran it’s OK to lie if the end justifies the means e.g. yo’reat war, or you are threatened in someway by an infidel. The level of threat appears to be a question though.I had a group of Muslim students obviously cheat on a test. They all filled in a fill in the blank with the same absurd and incorrect answer.

    They swore on their mother they weren’t cheating. Maybe swearing on your mother is OK and not your father, I didn’t think to ask.????

    A little different from the Judeo-Christian view that “God hates the liar”. Not to say that Christians and Jews don’t lie but it is always a “sin” if you will.

  66. Danios Says:

    @ ken

    My understanding , as rudimentary as it is, is that according to the Quran it’s OK to lie if the end justifies the means e.g. yo’reat war, or you are threatened in someway by an infidel. The level of threat appears to be a question though.I had a group of Muslim students obviously cheat on a test. They all filled in a fill in the blank with the same absurd and incorrect answer.

    They swore on their mother they weren’t cheating. Maybe swearing on your mother is OK and not your father, I didn’t think to ask.????

    A little different from the Judeo-Christian view that “God hates the liar”. Not to say that Christians and Jews don’t lie but it is always a “sin” if you will.

    Please change “as rudimentary as it is” to “as ignorant as I am”. But it’s chauvinistic sentiments like these that compel me to bring humility to those of the “Judeo-Christian view”:

    http://spencerwatch.com/2010/08/15/silencing-spencer-taqiyya-and-kitman-are-part-of-judeo-christian-belief/

  67. DeucePrez Says:

    To the author:

    You meant, “Taqiyya: The Ultimate Pseudo-Intellectual Cop-out“, right??

  68. setep Says:

    y’all are so amusing to watch. one lies and the other swears to it. your comparisons are ludicrous

  69. DeucePrez Says:

    This is an EXCELLENT source of truth, refuting the lies spewed by the Islamaphobes. Too bad that more Islamaphobes and their comments remain here to add palaver to the source.

    If I were in charge of it, I’d delete everything they posted! Little lawrence went away for awhile once he (or she) was shown the 99 names of Allah and the false name he was implying was nowhere to be seen. Did he apologize? NO!! He kept up the attack and INSISTED that we add it to fit his puny fancy and mustard-seed sized ego.

  70. bilal Says:

    @kafir art
    yes the author has stated that EVERYONE uses deception in war, including muslims, christians, etc. yes you are right in saying that there are some muslims, the al qaeda type that see themselves as being at war with the west and in this war they use deceprion. but you seem to be saying that they use this deception because muhammed apparently uttered “war is deceit” and not because ITS GOOD COMMON SENSE TO NOT TELL YOUR PERCIEVED ENEMY THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR PLANS IN WARFARE!! for all we know, they could be lying because they read it in sun tzus art of war. also, there are plenty of christians, jews, athiests etc out there who see themselves or the west as being at war with islam, and many, like pamella spencer and robert geller use deception and lieing in this “war”. theyre probably doing that because they read it in some (non existant) passage of the quran, and not from sun tzus art of war or not because ITS COMMON SENSE TO LIE TO PEOPLE TO GET THEM TO BELIEVE WHAT YOURE TELLING THEM!! war is an incredibly ugly thing, those fighting the war are often much uglier.
    to your second point about the existance of the concept of taqiyya as “deception in the cause of preservation” this is true and such a concept formally exists in shiite islam where all legal authorities agree that it is to be used for the preservasion of LIFE not the FURTHERING of religion. taqiyya is tied to the idea of preservation, not of furthering any sort of aim ot goal. in the concepts of taqiyya described by the shia or as described by pamela spencer/robert geller , neither have any basis in the quran. taqiyya in its ACTUAL islamic meaning and not the one conjured up by nut jobs is rarley practiced as islamic law and the quran both require muslims to migrate to a land where they can practice their faith freely if they are facing persecution in their current place of residence.

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