Robert Spencer

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Pamela Geller

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Bat Ye'or

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Brigitte Gabriel

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Daniel Pipes

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Debbie Schlussel

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Walid Shoebat

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Joe Kaufman

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Wafa Sultan

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Geert Wilders

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The Nuclear Card

“Facts, Schmacts!”: Michael Medved on Islam

Posted on 22 October 2010 by Inconnu

In his latest, as of this writing, blog post on his “Police Blotter,” Robert Spencer highlights a piece by Michael Medved entitled, “Disapproval of Islam is No Indication of Bigotry.” Medved writes:

The real question raised by all such expressions of public opinion should confront the nearly 40% of Americans who say they feel positively impressed by Islam and its influence.

What aspect of Muslim teaching and achievement most inspires such respondents? The daily reports of suicidal violence from every corner of the globe, with fellow-Muslims (invariably) as the primary victims? Or the well-known association of Islamic piety with open-hearted respect for the rights of women, homosexuals and infidels? Or is it the sterling record of economic progress, cutting age technology and social justice achieved by precisely those societies (like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan) that take Shariah law most seriously? Or would Islam’s American admirers cite the record of Muslim charities in the U.S., the most prominent of which (remember the Holy Land Foundation?) have been shut down by the government for their lavish support of murderous terrorist groups like Hamas?

Quite naturally, the people who look favorably on Islam feel unconcerned over its ancient teachings or loathsome perversions in benighted corners of the globe, and focus instead on the law-abiding, patriotic, family-loving Muslims who have established benign communities throughout the United States. But even the decent people who reside in those communities rightly worry that their impressionable off-spring may become too religious, too zealous in their fervent commitment to The Prophet and his teachings.

Notice how, in a few short paragraphs, Medved cites such things as suicide terrorists, countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan, and Islam’s “ancient teachings” and infers that, therefore, Islam itself is bad.

Funny how Medved doesn’t mention all those “ancient teachings” of the Bible that demand stoning to death? Or, the fact that suicide terrorism is not a uniquely Islamic phenomenon? Moreover, Medved says:

There is no real parallel to this fear in Christian or Jewish homes. Christian parents may feel embarrassed by their religiously reborn children suddenly studying the Gospels obsessively, or witnessing obnoxiously to family or friends, but they needn’t worry about wayward kids blowing up themselves or others in the name of Jesus.

Really? What about the “Christian Bin Laden” who was arrested for plotting to blow up a women’s clinic? Or Timothy McVeigh? He was a known Christian. What about the Lord’s Resistance Army? Oh, but these are not Muslims, so they don’t count.

Medved goes on:

Jewish mothers and fathers may hate the scraggly beards and black hats adopted by a suddenly Orthodox generation, or resent the refusal to eat non-kosher food at home, but even the most fanatical of their kids feel scant temptation to travel to remote mountain hideouts as part of an international terror conspiracy.

Wow. Then, Mr. Medved must not have heard about the recent book Jewish Terrorism in Israel, written by two Israeli scholars, that documents Jewish terrorist activity dating from before the creation of the Jewish State. This is from the conclusion of the book:

It is true that radical Islamists to a certain extent justify their terrorism with their aspiration to help the Palestinian nation realize its nationalist goals and by claiming they are responding to the ongoing harm to Palestinians. However, even a movement such as Fatah, all the more so Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and al-Qaeda, openly declare that they will not rest until the complete liberation of the Al-Aqsa Mosque is achieved [the Al-Aqsa Mosque is located on the same site in Old Jerusalem as the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism].

On the other hand, although in much smaller numbers, there are Jews who regard the very presence of the mosques as an obstacle to the redemption of the people of Israel. A larger number hold a Kahanist worldview, according to which—irrespective of the conflict with the Palestinians—the Jewish state should cast out the Arab minority from within. Some of them are willing to try to implement this goal in a violent way or by means designed to bring about a violent escalation in the relations between Jews and Arabs.

Again, they don’t talk about Muslims, so it doesn’t count. Medved also failed to mention the comments of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator, who said that Gentiles are meant to serve Jews:

“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,? he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.

In Israel, death has no dominion over them… With gentiles, it will be like any person – they need to die, but [God] will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.

This is his servant… That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew,? Yosef said.

“Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat.

That is why gentiles were created,? he added.

You remember Rabbi Yosef…he called for a plague on the Palestinian people. Isn’t that, like, genocide?

But, wait! Medved exposes more of his worldview:

The spiritual leader of the proposed Islamic Cultural Center near Ground Zero insists that the true problem is extremism, not Islam itself. “The real battlefront today is not between Muslims and non-Muslims,? declared Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf to the Council on Foreign Relations, “but between moderates of all faith traditions against the extremists of all faith traditions.?

This ignores the huge differences –both quantitative (Islamic radicals are vastly more numerous) and qualitative (Muslim fanatics endorse uniquely murderous rhetoric and deeds) – between extremists in one faith tradition and all others.

A Christian fundamentalist may talk about burning Korans; Muslim crazies regularly burn buildings- and people. Even after Pastor Terry Jones called off his idiotic barbeque of the Islamic holy book, Muslims reacted with deadly riots in Kashmir that killed 16 and wounded sixty, while burning several schools and other government buildings.

Some Americans may dislike the style of worship in Pentecostal or Catholic churches, but the faithful (no matter how tackily dressed) never surge out of their sanctuaries on Sundays with fury and blood-lust, looking for non-believers to stone and property to destroy. Every Friday, however, somewhere in the vast Muslim world, some congregations of the devout react to their uplifting prayer services by going directly from their mosques to rousing orgies of rage and violence.

This last statement is an over-reaching exaggeration at best. And, once again, Medved says these things while seeming to ignore all the atrocities committed by Christians and Jews in the name of their religion. It is all documented on the website: www.whatiftheyweremuslim.com. It goes to show that extremists are all the same – namely, extreme – and come from all walks of spiritual life.

But, that doesn’t fit into the neat little world of people like “Scholar” Robert Spencer and Michael Medved, and so they ingore the facts and continue on with their assertions about Islam.

Medved concludes:

This observation isn’t an expression of bigotry; it’s a factual product of reading the newspaper, and regularly monitoring international news. The lame-brained insistence that all faith traditions deserve equal respect (or equal condemnation) doesn’t demonstrate tolerance or broad-mindedness; it expresses, rather, a refusal to take any religion seriously enough for honest evaluation of its virtues and flaws.

Reservations about Islam, and even fears of the Muslim faith’s influence on the world at large, don’t constitute paranoia or intolerance. These concerns represent an honest and reasonable response on the part of a significant segment of the public to a serious global challenge to the values that Americans hold most dear.

No, Mr. Medved, your “observation” is nothing more than a repeating of the Muslim “Police Blotter,” citing the crimes of those who are Muslim and then projecting their criminality to all of Islam. It is as unfair as judging a town by its own police blotter. Now, I’m not saying that Mr. Medved is a bigot because he, obviously, has a negative view of Islam. I am only showing that the facts are not on his side.

93 Comments For This Post

  1. Beautiful Muslim Doll Says:

    Inconnu brilliant, LOL “Christian Bin Laden” Spot on ;)

  2. Justin Says:

    Nice rebuttal. What a goon loon!

  3. mindy1 Says:

    I would really like to know where these Jewish loons come from…. they are really misinterpreting Jewish scripture

  4. marco Says:

    I love how they yap on about the rights of Homosexuals..and yet….we have that recent thing with the army ruling and the huge controversy over gay marriage :rolleyes:

  5. JD Says:

    /\ I was discussing this same issue at my gay friend Steve and Adam’s wedding Steve is and has been open gay ex Military for the past 10 years and Steve is a teacher oh wait…… Never mind i must have been dreaming….

  6. JD Says:

    This is a quote from comment section on another article about muslim
    “Our best chance is that there will be a wave of nationalism sweeping our country leading to the expulsion of these peace loving Muslim “students”. This will hopefully happen contemporaneously with the expulsion of BHO from the White House in 2012″

    Does this sound like something said 1930 by a guy big ego small mustache like getting “Hailed” all the time …. Keep up the good work LW we need to expose these people or we will keep heading that way soon

  7. Biz Says:

    I agree marco.

  8. JihadBob Says:

    Really? What about the “Christian Bin Laden? who was arrested for plotting to blow up a women’s clinic? Or Timothy McVeigh? He was a known Christian. What about the Lord’s Resistance Army? Oh, but these are not Muslims, so they don’t count.

    What a refutation.

    Wow.

    But let’s see if Medved has a response to that in his article:

    This ignores the huge differences –both quantitative (Islamic radicals are vastly more numerous) and qualitative (Muslim fanatics endorse uniquely murderous rhetoric and deeds) – between extremists in one faith tradition and all others.

  9. JihadBob Says:

    Really? What about the “Christian Bin Laden? who was arrested for plotting to blow up a women’s clinic? Or Timothy McVeigh? He was a known Christian. What about the Lord’s Resistance Army? Oh, but these are not Muslims, so they don’t count.

    Right, a secular terrorist ex military type, a cult terrorist group that are so fundamentalist in nature that they’re willing to temporarily convert to another religion for guns and cash and abortion bombers who have managed to kill a staggering five people in the past thirty years are good parallels to Islamic terrorism.

    Good point – you’ve shown Medved that he’s the one loose on the facts.

  10. Syed Says:

    JihadBob said, “a secular terrorist ex military type”

    The level of obfuscation from you is awe-inspiring.

    A secular terrorist ex military type who calls himself the ‘Christian’ Bin Laden. A cult terrorist group that calls itself the LORDs resistance army and wants to implement the biblical ten commandments. Abortion bombers who use Christian teachings to kill doctors and medical practicioners.

    Look! A red herring …. LOL

  11. NassirH Says:

    Medved is indeed loose on facts. He once had Walid Shoebat on his show and the loon was blabbering about how one of Allah’s 99 names is “the deciever”–an outright lie of course.

    (Medved seemed okay with lying as it is officially the new Republican position on Islam)

    Loonwatch is simply pointing out the fact that Republicans seem to believe that it’s okay to stereotype 1.5 billion people based on Robert Spencer telling us about a failed trash bin bombing that was done for entirely ‘secular’ reasons was actually part of a plot to take over America.

    (BTW, JihadBob actually believes that)

    Of course, JihadBob will try to insist that it’s okay to hate Muslims because some of them are terrorists–who kill mostly other Muslims by the way. And besides JihadBob, you should take issue with the fact that Medved didn’t say that it’s okay to hate Muslims: you have clearly shown you hate Muslims, not just Islam–for example, you claimed that most Muslims are “Islamo-fascists.

  12. FXG Says:

    Why doesn’t anyone use the born again christian terrorist Bush? He said his “god” told him to go to Iraq and used other christian rhetoric such as the word “crusade”. Please from next time use Bush who went to blow up Iraq in the name of his christian god. He alone is enough to trump all other terrorist activity in the 21st century..

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

  13. JD Says:

    Bad news boys and girls look like that _______ Pam Geller got enough leverage with her boycott that Cambell Soup will not offer there HILAL SOUP here in America and may even in Canada

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video=1621240774&play=1

    Guess we will have to wait for her to say something hateful about Jews or blacks or some other group before people stop takeing her seriously because look like Muslim hate is OK in this country

  14. cheryl Says:

    And the REAL percentage of Americans who think positive about islam and its moron folowers . . .0%!
    Islam deserves NO respect because in the last fifteen-hundred years it hasn’t earned any.
    All islam does is preach hate and murder, be it by suicide or by “honor”. All they teach in the mosques today is how bad America is. They blame America because they live in poverty. They blame America for their women not practicing birth control. They blame America for them not being educated, by ending up as the laughing stock of humanity, by being on the last rung on the toetum pole, the ones who are hated and despised because all they do is say “allah akbar” as if that alone will atone for their failure at life. NOT 40%, idiots.

  15. Lilly Says:

    Hey Cheryl, My Uni really needs some anti-Islamic people for a debate, you should come speak!

  16. Syed Says:

    @Cheryl – LOL. Keep the laughs coming ;)

  17. Robaby1984 Says:

    Until the Communist Revolution in 1917, the Czar Nicholas II and many Russian Orthodox Christian Priests used to stir up an orgy of hatred towards Jews, especially after Easter, resulting in congregants and devout Orthodox Christian engaging in annual pograms that killed thousands of Jews in Russia and Eastern Europe(this was due to those “Passion” play, i.e. “Passion of the Christ”) because they blamed the Jews for the death of Christ and this occured over annually for over thousands of year culminating in the Holocaust. Much of this was influenced by the most influential of Christians and Christian Scholars such as Luther(who was very anti-semitic and wrote “Jews and their Lies”) and much of the Catholic Church(like church father St. Augustine) boht of who endorsed this type of violence towards Jews and other infidels.

    So to Jihad Bob and Medved: there was both quantitative (Christian radicals are vastly more numerous in history than Muslim radicals) and qualitative (Christian fanatics endorsed uniquely murderous rhetoric and deeds that resulted in allowing the Holocaust to happen).

  18. DrM Says:

    Well if it isn’t Michael “slavery wasn’t so bad” Medved. How about a historical re-enactment in the Egyptian desert, Mike? I’ll bring the whip :

    http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/search?q=medved

    As for cheryl, I guess that rumor I heard about trailers getting the 56k dial up upgrade was true.

  19. muhammad 'abd-al haqq Says:

    cheryl@

    “And the REAL percentage of Americans who think positive about islam and its moron folowers . . .0%!”

    So where do the estimated 2 million AMERICAN Muslims fit into your demented calculation?? LOL the laughs because of you seem to endless!

    Allahu A’lam

  20. muhammad 'abd-al haqq Says:

    cheryl@

    “Islam deserves NO respect because in the last fifteen-hundred years it hasn’t earned any.
    All islam does is preach hate and murder, be it by suicide or by “honor?. All they teach in the mosques today is how bad America is. They blame America because they live in poverty. They blame America for their women not practicing birth control. They blame America for them not being educated, by ending up as the laughing stock of humanity, by being on the last rung on the toetum pole, the ones who are hated and despised because all they do is say “allah akbar? as if that alone will atone for their failure at life.”

    All this from someone who has never been inside a mosque or personally known a single Muslim? Your tiresome tirades are surely making even you tired, no? “Allah Akbar?” That’s hilarious on so many levels…

    Now..back to the article It’s hard to determine whether media drives public opinion of Muslims or if collective opinion is simply accurately reflected in media reporting. Many many people in America share Medved’s, and for that matter Geller and Spencer’s, bigoted, uninformed views. And not just right-wing, Christian whites or Zionist Jews either. This view i’ve heard come out of the mouths of African-Americans,West Indians,Latinos, and leftists, who would’ve have sworn on their grandparents graves that i wasn’t a Muslim until i informed them. There is a real problem among “minorities” and their anti-Islam views. Not too long ago other “minority” groups were the vilified groups. Of course blacks and Latinos are still, you know. and Jews are still corrupting America(sound familiar?), but now Muslim is the accepted pejorative.

    Allahu A’lam

  21. cheryl Says:

    Dear Lily,
    There is no such animal as an “anti-Islamic”. There are, however, people who are pro-freedom, pro-women, pro-common frick’en sense. Now, if you want to call the beacon of democrazy a horrible place, fine and dandy. I do recall, however, after world war two we left the countries that we conquored to their own devices, for good or bad, whatever. We shall do the same for the present debacle in the middle east, even more so because of the current Rules of Engagement.
    The REAL question is how much more of this “political correctness” crap are Americans going to take before they get those who work for the media and Uncle Sam and line them up against the wall and shoot them, along with those who do not defend the Constitution.
    “Honor” killing is plain and simple murder, and if you can’t get by that simple hurdle you’re going to find yourself blindfolded and wonder why. Well, I’m here to save you the trouble: don’t wonder.
    Like that Russian author wrote, “My God, it was right in front of you to see”. If you, and you others out there who want to give the sharia law pushers the time of day, good luck.
    So “No thanks” to your kind and gracious offer to talk at a forum that would allow someone who openly wants to trash the United Sates Constitution. What, a memeber of C.A.I.R. wants to speak? And raise money to buy rockets to kill people in Israel, and everywhere else, for that matter. No thank you just the same because I’d be too damn sick to speak to blasted idiots who don’t know any better between freedom and slavery.
    Freedom of speech, does Juan Williams ring a bell?
    Good luck.

  22. muhammad 'abd-al haqq Says:

    @cheryl

    “Dear Lily,
    ” There are, however, people who are pro-freedom, pro-women, pro-common frick’en sense.”

    Yeah and they’re called Muslims. You lack common sense if you think someone who is AGAINST Islam is somehow not ANTI Islamic. Be honest, you turned Lily down because you have a real fear of appearing in public and spouting your hate. You’re a coward. All this talk about honor killing, Did you fall in love with a Muslim who left you because of family pressure? And this talk of shooting dissidents and calling yourself a patriot in the same breath. Are you serious? Why are you here? To convert Muslims through hatred and internet intimidation?

    Allahu A’lam

  23. Ahmed Says:

    @Lily
    “And the REAL percentage of Americans who think positive about islam and its moron folowers . . .0%!”

    Prove it.

    “All islam does is preach hate and murder, be it by suicide or by “honor?.”

    Murder is the second greatest sin in Islam. As for suicide, it is condemned in the Qur’an and Sunnah.

    “All they teach in the mosques today is how bad America is.”

    You should actually go to a mosque instead of, you know, making baseless accusations against them. Most of the sermons are about piety and avoiding sins. The most “hateful” sermon I’ve ever heard was by ONE person who said that non-Muslims are not people to be around, but even he said that harming them is still prohibited.

    “They blame America because they live in poverty. They blame America for their women not practicing birth control. They blame America for them not being educated, by ending up as the laughing stock of humanity, by being on the last rung on the toetum pole, the ones who are hated and despised because all they do is say “allah akbar? as if that alone will atone for their failure at life. NOT 40%, idiots.”

    All baseless claims and sweeping generalizations. If you want to know the truth, go meet some Muslims and visit a mosque and listen to a sermon. But of course, you’re so full of hate that something so small as that would be impossible for you.

  24. Ahmed Says:

    Sorry; my comment was directed at Cheryl, not Lily.

  25. Same Seed Says:

    @ cheryl

    “There is no such animal as an “anti-Islamic?. That’s right, only some humans called bigots such as yourself.

    BTW it’s “democracy” not “democrazy”.

    I’d like to refute your arguments but they make no sense.

  26. Tarig Says:

    I don’t really comment here, just read, but this post came up and I had to address it:
    @cheryl
    There is no such animal as an “anti-Islamic?. //
    That’s what Nazis used to say about anti-Semitism, and what was said about the Jews during the inquisitions, history has a funny way of repeating itself guess there’s just a new target now!

    There are, however, people who are pro-freedom, pro-women, pro-common frick’en sense. Now, if you want to call the beacon of democrazy a horrible place, fine and dandy. //
    Then how can you possibly back your own government considering its history of overthrowing democratically elected governments all over the world in favour of despotic tyrants who commit genocide but serve the empires interests so do so with impunity. And when I say the world over, I mean it, it’s happened in Nicaragua, Panama, Haiti, Iran, Congo, Indonesia, the OPT, even Venezuela as little as 8 years ago, but that one backfired. Why do you think your nation was ejected from the OAS?

    I do recall, however, after world war two we left the countries that we conquored to their own devices, for good or bad, whatever. We shall do the same for the present debacle in the middle east, even more so because of the current Rules of Engagement.//
    This exposes your level of ignorance. None of the world was ever left to its own. Any nation that attempts to gain sovereignty is subject to an overthrow or invasion, look at Iran in 53, Congo in the 60′s, Nicaragua in the 80′s, Venezuela at the start of the century, the Palestinians 4 years ago, Ecuador last year! It’s all the same thing, a nation trying to exercise sovereignty, and the empire saying F-YOU! Your country is exempt from the rules of engagement, that’s what a UN veto is used for, so don’t give me that rules of engagement crap, it only applies to those who don’t agree with your government!

    The REAL question is how much more of this “political correctness? crap are Americans going to take before they get those who work for the media and Uncle Sam and line them up against the wall and shoot them, along with those who do not defend the Constitution.//
    So you advocate a firing squad for everyone in the media? And you claim that its Muslims that are extreme? You’re deluded, pure and simple. Although you haven’t espoused it, I bet your one of those against mosques being built in the US right? Well you do realize that in itself is tearing up the constitution don’t you? You know, a bit more than your beloved republicans did with the patriot act!

    “Honor? killing is plain and simple murder, and if you can’t get by that simple hurdle you’re going to find yourself blindfolded and wonder why.
    Well, I’m here to save you the trouble: don’t wonder.//
    Yes it is, just the same as shooting a woman to steel her purse is! Can you tell me, which nation in this world has the highest murder rate, and is not classed as in a state of domestic warfare? Well I’ll give you the top 5, Honduras, south Africa, Swaziland, Columbia and Lesotho, all Christian nations I might add (You have to go down to 55 to find an Arab “nation”, which is Palestine, the next country down in the Middle East is Israel)! why not start espousing that Christianity teaches you have to be a violent SOB to live in a Christian nation, does it not fit your tag line or something?

    Like that Russian author wrote, “My God, it was right in front of you to see?. If you, and you others out there who want to give the sharia law pushers the time of day, good luck.//

    Can you even tell me what Sharia law is? no you can’t because if you did know anything you would know that it can’t be applied to non-muslims, hence why countries like Malaysia have 2 legal codes. instead of using terms you clearly have no understanding of, try reading a book!

    So “No thanks? to your kind and gracious offer to talk at a forum that would allow someone who openly wants to trash the United Sates Constitution. //

    As you have shown you are actually willing to do!

    What, a memeber of C.A.I.R. wants to speak? //

    I take it you think there terrorists right? Proof please, because I sure as hell can prove that bush and Cheney are, it’s called 1,000,000+ dead in Iraq, based on the worst of all Nuremberg war crimes, aggression! A bare faced lie that you and yours are still not willing to admit to!

    And raise money to buy rockets to kill people in Israel, and everywhere else, for that matter. //

    You mean like them rockets America pays for to bomb UN schools used as civilian war shelters in Gaza? Or the navy that acts as pirates and kills civilians in international waters? maybe you mean those drones that bomb weddings in Pakistan, or sheppards in Columbia and Bolivia!

    No thank you just the same because I’d be too damn sick to speak to blasted idiots who don’t know any better between freedom and slavery.
    Freedom of speech, does Juan Williams ring a bell?//

    You mean no thank you because you know everything you talk about is a lie, you have no actual knowledge of what is happening in this world, and you are more than aware that if you began to discuss something with anyone even slightly educated you would fold like origami, right? Do you work in front of a conveyor belt?

    Good luck.//
    Save it for yourself, you’re the one on the wrong side of history, just the same as the Osama Bin Laden’s, George Bush’s, Suharto’s, Idi Ameens and Adolf Hitler’s of this world!

  27. JihadBob Says:

    and much of the Catholic Church(like church father St. Augustine) boht of who endorsed this type of violence towards Jews and other infidels.

    They did????

  28. cheryl Says:

    Tarig, our government sucks. The foriegn policy has been made up by idiots from the Ivy League schools, noteably Yale.
    As far as obama and his supporters are concerned, no, the American people don’t like it one bit. “WHERE’S TH BIRTH CERTIFICATE?”, or haven’t you been paying attention?
    Time to grow-up, little boy, and act your age. If you run around with a crazed crowd, guess what? You’re just as guilty as the ones who got caught.
    There is absolutely no excuse to be a muslim, unless, of course, you are frick’en brain washed and brain dead.
    Up Yours,
    Cheryl
    p.s., islam isn’t a religion, haven’t you heard? It’s a political philosophy, just look at any world map and pick-out the islamic cuntries and describe the state/religion line of demarcation. You can’t because there isn’t any, dummy.

  29. Jack Cope Says:

    I stopped reading Che’s stuff. Sorry sister, you’re just too mad, you’re clearly just copying what Pammy says.

    Oh, and just so you know, I’m a Muslim, a convert no less. No, I am not stupid (I won’t state my IQ because I hate to boast), brainwashed or braindead, I’m a thinking individual who want’s to sever God, like most Muslims.

    Also, your PS is a load of crap, you can stop repeating that now. Unless you’re doing the old Joseph Gobels (Hitler’s propaganda minister) ‘A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth’ trick.

    Peace Be Upon You

  30. Jack Cope Says:

    PS I do find it amusing that you say you speak for all American people… how do you manage that? Asked them all? Survey? HINT: The people on pammy’s site do not constitute the whole of the USA… You’re doing the same thing for Muslims to, HINT2: There are 1.57 billion Muslims, we are all different. Not that you’re going to pay any attention.

    Again, Peace Be Upon You

  31. Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony Says:

    Cheryl
    Sometimes its difficult to follow your logic. I am not a muslim so explain to me ,why is Islam not a religion ? Are you saying muslims dont worship god ? What is your definition of a religion? Lots of counties have large numbers of muslims yet are not theocracies.( Britain ,France ,Germany ,Russia ,China,kenya USA many others I am sure I could go on but life is too short)
    Also why the sour grapes over Obama winning the election. Its not cause he’s black is it ? Heaven forbid
    We do agree on American Foreign policy been made by Idiots the same Idiots who caused the current economic meltdown. GW Bush has a lot to answer for.
    As G Bush senior said “Its the economy Stupid” he was right everything else is a smokescreen . Ever been had Cheryl because you have been suckered into not looking where the real issue is .
    Its the economy stupid and whoes fault is it ?

  32. Jack Cope Says:

    Have a wild guess who get’s a lot of the blame for the economy Sir David :-P Also, we are meeting at the secret wink wink backward handshake tonight if you are free. Bring ‘cake’, ‘oranges’ and ‘lemons’ otherwise you membership may be terminated.

    I also suggest that Cheryl look at nations like Indonesia and Malaysia to name two which are not theocracies yet still ‘Muslim’ nations. Oh, I forgot, they are not Arabs so not Muslims…

  33. Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony Says:

    Jack
    I will polish my apron and ‘square ‘things with you later ;-)

  34. JihadBob Says:

    The level of obfuscation from you is awe-inspiring.

    Especially so since I was referring to Tim McVeigh.

    I agree with you that the abortion clinic bombings are often the work of Christian terrorists by pointing out that there have been a whopping five or so deaths in the past thirty years….

    A cult terrorist group that calls itself the LORDs resistance army and wants to implement the biblical ten commandments.

    Yes, a cult terrorist group is not qualitatively similar to al-Qaeda.

    That’s Michael Medved’s point. I could also add that this cult group are so dogmatic in belief that they are willing to temporarily change their faith if this meant support in arms and cash.

    Abortion bombers who use Christian teachings to kill doctors and medical practicioners.

    I’m not sure what teachings Christian bombers use – though I agree with you that there are some qualitative similarities between Christian abortion bombers and Islamic terrorists – but there are no quantitative similarities.

    Either in the militant movement itself or from the larger population as a whole.

  35. Jack Cope Says:

    Anyone reading Bob’s stuff? Bob, you’re digging a rather large hole here…

  36. Mosizzle Says:

    “there are some qualitative similarities between Christian abortion bombers and Islamic terrorists – but there are no quantitative similarities.”

    You fail to include the terrorism conducted by America in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Fact is more civilian Muslims have died at the hands of America’s “Peace Force” than the number of Non-Muslim civilians killed by Al-Qaeda.

    And JihadBob have you read the news recently, Wikileaks uncovers how 15,000 Iraqi deaths were “accidentally” not reported by the American army. Interesting.

  37. Mosizzle Says:

    “A prisoner was kneeling on the ground, blindfolded and handcuffed, when an Iraqi soldier walked over to him and kicked him in the neck. A US marine sergeant was watching and reported the incident, which was duly recorded and judged to be valid. The outcome: “No investigation required.”"

    A description of one “minor incident” in the leaked Iraq War Logs.

  38. Syed Says:

    JihadBob said, “are so dogmatic in belief that they are willing to temporarily change their faith ”

    So these so-called Christian terrorists practice ‘taqiyya’. Not surprising – since extremists usually grasp at theological straws to justify their hatred. They hardly represent mainstream Christianity.

    Your have two issues;
    1. You think that Islamic extremism is quantitatively disproportionately large for its adherents (so by proxy Islam must be the problem). The FBI statistics disprove that. They are neither significant nor insignificant compared to any other group.

    2. The second main issue you have is that you percieve that the terrorists recieve moral support from the mainstream Muslims. As others have pointed out more than 90% of victims of their violence are other Muslims. As I said earlier, you can be an ally in fighting extremist Islamic rhetoric. But when you mix us up with the terrorists, you make us your enemuy in your own mind.

    Can we agree to have our discussions based on these premises? Everytime you make a generalized bigoted comment, it takes away from our energy and time trying to keep up with your inane responses.

  39. NassirH Says:

    Even if there are more ‘Muslim terrorists’, demonizing Muslims shouldn’t become acceptable—it would be very inappropriate, especially considering that the vast majority of the victims of both war and terrorism nowadays are Muslim civilians.

  40. miss manners Says:

    I shall help all of you out here. It has been said that islam is not a religion because it does the same as a facsist state, there is no dividing line between the State and the Religion, they are one and the same.
    Furthermore, Islam acts as a cult in that, once a member one can never leave except under penalty of death.
    Then there’s the law of sharia (respect islam).
    Then there is the State sponsored schools for boys but none, or little, for girls.
    Then there is the court system of a sense of justice as long as it follows the guidelines of the quoran/sharia law.
    Then there is the sense of fighting a common foe, not ignorance, not why don’t we have free speech, not exposure to different world views, but let’s all hate the Infidel. This practice of making up an enemy tends to pull people together, even if the enemy is make believe.
    You want proof? Think about this then:
    The P.M. of Israel said that if the Arabs would lay down their guns, there would be peace. If the Jews would lay down their guns, there would be no Israel.

  41. Jack Cope Says:

    *Sigh* all you are doing Miss Manners is helping us see that you are a loon…

    “There is no dividing line between the State and the Religion, they are one and the same.”

    Extremely debatable, I recall the King of Saudi telling his scholars that the job of the religious scholars has, since the time of Mohamed, to ‘assist’ the ruler, not to rule. This can be backed up by history.

    “Furthermore, Islam acts as a cult in that, once a member one can never leave except under penalty of death.”

    Debatable once again, I suggest reading for more information on where Islam stands. And no, it’s not a cult.

    “Then there’s the law of sharia (respect islam).”

    Yep, problem? Do you know anything about Sharia? You’ll find it’s like any legal system unless you have a problem with those as well…

    “Then there is the State sponsored schools for boys but none, or little, for girls.”

    Sorry, just wrong, not only has the Qu’ran stated that education is the duty of all Muslims whether male of female, historically there have been many many many women scholars and teachers. In fact, I’d hazard that education was provided to girls far more early in the Islamic world than anywhere else. And let’s not forget that most Muslim nations, even Saudi, provide education for women.

    “Then there is the court system of a sense of justice as long as it follows the guidelines of the quoran/sharia law.”

    Again, problem? It’s a perfectly good legal system that you seem to know nothing about other than the standard BS spewed on the hate sites.

    “Then there is the sense of fighting a common foe, not ignorance, not why don’t we have free speech, not exposure to different world views, but let’s all hate the Infidel. This practice of making up an enemy tends to pull people together, even if the enemy is make believe.”

    Care to show me this? I’d be fascinated to see it… And that is quite rich, coming from a person who makes Muslims their make believe ‘enemy’ and refuses to take a look at the Muslim ‘world view’… sorry, I could go on for a long time pointing out the fallacy of you saying that.

    And your last statement is not proof, well it is, proof of your failure to grasp how the situation works. Let’s put it this way, if Israel stopped bombing the crap out of people, removed it blockade and so on, then there would be peace. The Palestinians want it, Israeli civilians want it, but the Israel government seems to be to reliant on extremists for anything to happen. Sucks…

    Sorry Miss Manners, please don’t try and teach us Muslims about how Islam works, we kinda know by definition…

  42. Mosizzle Says:

    missmanners,

    “The P.M. of Israel said that if the Arabs would lay down their guns, there would be peace. If the Jews would lay down their guns, there would be no Israel.”

    Zionist Alert! I sure hope you’re not talking about Menachim Begin, former leader of the terrorist group Irgun, who was responsible for the 1946 King David Hotel bombing which killed 91 people.

    Unlike you, missmaners, Menachim Begin did have manners. The terrorist group later apologised for the 17 Jews that died, but maintains to this day that the deaths of 41 Arab civilians and 28 British soldiers amongst others was entirely justified.

    Israel really is unique: it elected the head of a terrorist group as its Prime Minister!

  43. JihadBob Says:

    You fail to include the terrorism conducted by America in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Fact is more civilian Muslims have died at the hands of America’s “Peace Force? than the number of Non-Muslim civilians killed by Al-Qaeda.

    Except that violence is not qualitatively similar to Jihad terrorism.

    And JihadBob have you read the news recently, Wikileaks uncovers how 15,000 Iraqi deaths were “accidentally? not reported by the American army. Interesting.

    Not sure if you read that correctly. But, regardless. I have not heard these casualties were caused by the US military. Just that the Pentagon account of Iraqi deaths was 15,000 off than some other figure provided (including some statements by the US officials).

    “A prisoner was kneeling on the ground, blindfolded and handcuffed, when an Iraqi soldier walked over to him and kicked him in the neck. A US marine sergeant was watching and reported the incident, which was duly recorded and judged to be valid. The outcome: “No investigation required.?”

    So, is this an example of Islamic terrorism, Mosizzle, using your logic above?

    So these so-called Christian terrorists practice ‘taqiyya’.

    Not sure if that’s ‘taqiyya’ – they weren’t fooling their enemies but their allies.

    They hardly represent mainstream Christianity.

    Yes, it’s difficult to believe in the occult and represent mainstream Christianity – unlike al-Qaeda, whose beliefs are Orthodox Sunni Islam.

    You think that Islamic extremism is quantitatively disproportionately large for its adherents

    Yes, with the exception of some cults, religious terrorism is almost exclusively the domain of Islam, especially Sunni Islam.

    Do you disagree?

    The FBI statistics disprove that. They are neither significant nor insignificant compared to any other group.

    I thought the vast majority of non-Muslim terrorist attacks, with the exception of the once in a blue moon anti-government whacko, are rather insignificant.

    I mean, with the exception of Tim McVeigh, how many Americans have been killed by non-Muslim terrorists?

    The second main issue you have is that you percieve that the terrorists recieve moral support from the mainstream Muslims.

    Doesn’t it take a village to raise a terrorist? An extremist?

    As others have pointed out more than 90% of victims of their violence are other Muslims.

    That’s why popular support for extreme terrorist groups, such as al-Qaeda, has dropped in Muslim countries and communities in recent years.

    As I said earlier, you can be an ally in fighting extremist Islamic rhetoric. But when you mix us up with the terrorists, you make us your enemuy in your own mind.

    Nothing is ever fixed if the problem is misdiagnosed or never acknowledged. Sunni Muslims cite the texts and teachings of Islam to justify terrorism.

    Have you ever wondered why there aren’t Ahmadi terrorist movements in the world today – and they are certainly more oppressed than Sunni Muslims are.

    Even if there are more ‘Muslim terrorists’, demonizing Muslims shouldn’t become acceptable

    It’s not really an issue of numbers – maybe there’s an exceptional situation to explain why there are numerically more terrorists who happen to be Muslim, but it’s an issue of the universalism of Islamic terrorism and the qualitative differences between Islamic terrorism and other forms of terrorism.

    As for numbers, Communist/Leftist terrorists could arguably have been more numerous than Muslim terrorists as little as a few decades ago with terror groups such as the ‘Shining Path’.

    But there’s a militant streak in Sunni Islam (but also in the Musli/Arab world) that needs to be addressed. And that’s what makes it different from other terrorist groups, even including Leftist/Liberation Theology types of terrorism.

  44. Jack Cope Says:

    Bob, if there is a ‘militant streak’ in Islam then why is it this ‘streak’ only becomes apparent when a country is ‘occupied’? Why were there no ‘Islamic’ terrorist groups before now? And I’ll say here and now that such groups have no widespread support from the mainstream, heck, ask any Muslim. Secondly, the beliefs of Al-Queda are *not* the beliefs of orthodox Islam (whatever that is) Sunni or otherwise. If it were then why aren’t the billionish ‘Sunni’ Muslims all terrorists or providing support for them? Why is it that these terrorists, if we include ‘resistance groups’ like the Taliban, only number in the thousands?

  45. NassirH Says:

    Good point @Jack.

    What’s Spencer excuse for there being far more Christians terrorists than Muslim terrorists (if any) before the fall of the Ottoman empire and the creation of Israel?

  46. Anonymous Says:

    Albanian Muslims saved Jews from Nazis http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/22/exhibit-albanian-muslims-saved-jews-from-nazis/?hpt=C2

  47. Jack Cope Says:

    I use it all the time Nassir, feel free to make it your own :-) I’ve yet to have a good answer, if you ever get one please contact me! The other is to ask the question that if Islam is violent, why aren’t there 1.57 billion more terrorists in the world, again contact me if you ever get an answer to that. You are also making the grave mistake of assuming that Spenser has ‘points’ and ‘facts’ available to him…

  48. Tarig Says:

    Tarig, our government sucks. The foriegn policy has been made up by idiots from the Ivy League schools, noteably Yale.
    As far as obama and his supporters are concerned, no, the American people don’t like it one bit. “WHERE’S TH BIRTH CERTIFICATE??, or haven’t you been paying attention?
    Time to grow-up, little boy, and act your age. If you run around with a crazed crowd, guess what? You’re just as guilty as the ones who got caught.//

    The foreign policy has been the same since 1945, long before that black man you hate, I wonder why, was even born! It also spiked in levels of murderous acts during 2 administrations, the regan and bush 2 admins, interesting how you now blame the black man for their actions!! On top of that, I think I will believe a judge over a bigot like pammy! Also, your advocating of Genocide is sick, like I said earlier, wrong side of history! And before you say you didnt, associating all muslims with the few thousand “terrorists”, claiming they all share the same guilt (and hence punishment), you are advocating genocide!!!

    There is absolutely no excuse to be a muslim, unless, of course, you are frick’en brain washed and brain dead.
    Up Yours,
    Cheryl//

    Well I could say the same for born agains and the apocalytic beliefs they hold, but I would rather judge individuals on their actions. You Cheryl have a severe case of Projectionism! Its you that are brainwashed, you that are brain dead, and you that clearly needs something good up you, may I suggest a black man!

    p.s., islam isn’t a religion, haven’t you heard? It’s a political philosophy, just look at any world map and pick-out the islamic cuntries and describe the state/religion line of demarcation. You can’t because there isn’t any, dummy.//

    It doesnt hold water, I think Jack shut you up on that!

  49. Syed Says:

    JihadBob said, “Yes, it’s difficult to believe in the occult and represent mainstream Christianity – unlike al-Qaeda, whose beliefs are Orthodox Sunni Islam.”

    Its clear that you neither understand Christianity or Islam. Henceforth, I will treat you like the troll you are. No more Campbell halal soup for you ;)

  50. Dawood Says:

    JihadBob: You said on the LRA thread that “I agree with the above poster that if you call yourself a member of a religion, then you’re a member of that religion.” They (the LRA) self-identify as Christian, regardless of their “practices”, so what does you trying to somehow show that they are not legitimate or mainstream (i.e. a fringe movement) have to do with it? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander… You deny Muslims the ability to define the miscreants within their own religious tradition, yet expect legitimacy when you define the LRA in this way. Do you somehow think that your double-standards will go unchallenged without being highlighted?

  51. JihadBob Says:

    Bob, if there is a ‘militant streak’ in Islam then why is it this ‘streak’ only becomes apparent when a country is ‘occupied’?

    Uh, that would be news to me.

    I think a number of people correctly knew that there would be a coming conflict or wave of terrorism with Islam.

    And that was by sensing the fanaticism and militancy in Muslim society.

    Why were there no ‘Islamic’ terrorist groups before now?

    Uh, because Muslims had armies that could wage Jihad against the infidel up until very recently.

    And I’ll say here and now that such groups have no widespread support from the mainstream,

    You can say you’re the Queen of England. I just don’t know how many people will believe you.

    The other is to ask the question that if Islam is violent, why aren’t there 1.57 billion more terrorists in the world, again contact me if you ever get an answer to that.

    I’m not comparing Islam to Nazism. But let’s use some common sense here.

    If we all agree that Nazism is violent, then why weren’t all members of the National Socialist Party carrying out acts of terrorism?

    They (the LRA) self-identify as Christian, regardless of their “practices?, so what does you trying to somehow show that they are not legitimate or mainstream

    I didn’t say they weren’t legitimate.

    If they call themselves Christian then they are Christian in my book.

    But they aren’t mainstream. I didn’t think I needed to accompany my belief that a self proclaimed Christian cult/group that practices witchcraft and incorporates beliefs from animism wouldn’t be a mainstream belief movement in Christianity. But I guess I must have forgotten about you.

    Do you think the beliefs of Ahmadis who believe their founder was a prophet after Muhammad, the Messiah and Mahdi all in one are mainstream views within Orthodox, Sunni Islam?

    Hopefully between the time you read my post and type out your post some common sense will manage to find you.

  52. Dawood Says:

    Haha, I am not the one who is classifying professed believers whilst not allowing others to do the same towards those within their own tradition. My view of the Ahmadiyya is entirely irrelevant. A person can still be a Muslim without being Sunni, by the way.

    Again: You deny Muslims the ability to define the miscreants within their own religious tradition as being non-mainstream, yet expect legitimacy when you define the LRA in this way. Do you somehow think that your double-standards will go unchallenged without being highlighted?

  53. Jack Cope Says:

    Well Bob, you’ve given the best answer to my question that I’ve seen so far… well that being mainly because you’ve been one of the few who, rather than just say ‘oh, makes sense’ continues to charge on regardless… Anyway, let’s deal with it.

    “Uh, that would be news to me.

    I think a number of people correctly knew that there would be a coming conflict or wave of terrorism with Islam.

    And that was by sensing the fanaticism and militancy in Muslim society.”

    News to you? It’s news to me that people thought there would be a coming wave! Are you going to back that one up or is this another ‘hundreds of attacks that were not due to oppression’ thing? The fact of the mater is that it has not happened until Muslims were ‘oppressed’, again if there were such a streak then why is that so? Such a ‘streak’ appears in any culture, let’s take resistance groups in WWII as examples of that, perfectly normal people driven to acts of ‘terrorism’ under oppression from the Nazis.

    “Uh, because Muslims had armies that could wage Jihad against the infidel up until very recently.”

    Right…. ‘Jihad against the infidel’… examples? Please. Again, same as above, there have been no such groups because Muslims haven’t been ‘oppressed’ as they are now.

    “And I’ll say here and now that such groups have no widespread support from the mainstream,

    You can say you’re the Queen of England. I just don’t know how many people will believe you.”

    Of course, you don’t do facts… tell me Bob, ever spoken to Muslims? Befriended one? Visited Muslim countries? Heck, ever even logged onto a Muslim website? I don’t think so, hence you can’t really comment. I’ll say it one more time, they have no support, please provide evidence that they do. Opinion polls from around the world back my point up, nothing backs up yours.

    “I’m not comparing Islam to Nazism. But let’s use some common sense here.

    If we all agree that Nazism is violent, then why weren’t all members of the National Socialist Party carrying out acts of terrorism?”

    Well, even if not *all* members of the Nazi party were carrying out violence/terrorism, a significant majority were with most of the rest supporting them, if not all. That is no comparison to Islam where, at most, there are a few thousand ‘terrorists’ if we take ‘resistance groups’ like the Taliban into account, out of a population of 1.57 billion. So sorry, no, common sense shows the opposite to what you are saying. Again, it cannot be denied that when compared to the mainstream, these extremists are a handful.

  54. Mohammed Sameel Says:

    tarig says ” Its you that are brainwashed, you that are brain dead”

    mind you, Cheryl, missmanners and the likes of them are not brainwashed or brain dead, they simply do not have one.:D

  55. JihadBob Says:

    Again: You deny Muslims the ability to define the miscreants within their own religious tradition as being non-mainstream, yet expect legitimacy when you define the LRA in this way.

    Uh, no.

    You haven’t shown that al-Qaeda’s religious beliefs are not mainstream.

    News to you? It’s news to me that people thought there would be a coming wave!

    No, your previous comment was news to me and I followed that up by pointing out that many had prophetically predicted a clash between the Muslim world and non-Muslim world.

    The fact of the mater is that it has not happened until Muslims were ‘oppressed’,

    Well yes. Muslims are carrying out defensive Jihad, after all.

    It won’t be until al-Qaeda or Muslim moderates establish a true Islamic state where the kalifa can declare war against the non-Muslim world (offensive Jihad).

    Such a ‘streak’ appears in any culture, let’s take resistance groups in WWII as examples of that, perfectly normal people driven to acts of ‘terrorism’ under oppression from the Nazis.

    Uh, no.

    Not really the same. I think the calls for holy war and dehumanization of non-believers before the Nazis invaded is missing. Besides communists, there was no desire to establish a totalitarian government after the Nazis left.

    There are so many objections that I could find to ordinary insurgents in Nazi occupied Europe to the global Islamic militant movement that I would tire myself out and feel rather silly pointing out such gee whizz statements.

    Right…. ‘Jihad against the infidel’… examples? Please. Again, same as above, there have been no such groups because Muslims haven’t been ‘oppressed’ as they are now.

    I’m confused by what you’re trying to say.

    But yes, Muslims have only until recently been on the occupied/losing/weaker side in a military conflict.

    In prior centuries, Islamist armies were sent out to raid, invade and plunder non-Muslim lands, all justified through the texts and teachings of Islam.

    they have no support, please provide evidence that they do.

    Who is they, exactly?

    The majority of Pakistanis who admire Osama bin Laden? The fifty % who held a favorable view of the Taliban (before the Pakistani Taliban began bombing Pakistani targets), the % of Muslims who support the terror group Hamas?

    Should I point out that OBL was named the most popular famous figure in an Arab/Muslim nation only a few years ago?

    Islamist groups only lost much of their support because they began bombing Muslim countries, not because their goals (the formation of an Islamic state) or their ideology is a turn off for most Muslims.

    That is no comparison to Islam where, at most, there are a few thousand ‘terrorists’ if we take ‘resistance groups’ like the Taliban into account, out of a population of 1.57 billion.

    Thank you for agreeing with me that the vast majority of Nazi party members from the formation of their party to the moment they were voted into power never engaged in terrorism, despite the fact that Nazi ideology could be said to have been violent.

    The same could be said of communist groups and individuals. Communism is undoubtedly a violent belief system, but the vast majority of communists in the US will never engage in violence.

  56. Jack Cope Says:

    Sheesh, Bob, Al-Queda are not mainstream, do you speak to Muslims? What do they say about it? Exactly.

    Now for the rest.

    I’ve never seen anyone ‘predict’ such a clash and as a matter of fact, there is not one now and never will be one provided the war hawks in the US are kept under control. Muslims certainly don’t want it, it’s ‘your’ lot that seem to be pushing for it.

    “Well yes. Muslims are carrying out defensive Jihad, after all.

    It won’t be until al-Qaeda or Muslim moderates establish a true Islamic state where the kalifa can declare war against the non-Muslim world (offensive Jihad).”

    Righhhhttt….. first of all Al-Queada will never get to do that, simply because, as said many many times, they have not support. Secondly, the idea of ‘Offensive Jihad’ is a misnomer to most Muslims, so even if the rest of us get our act together then it’s not going to happen.

    “Uh, no.

    Not really the same. I think the calls for holy war and dehumanization of non-believers before the Nazis invaded is missing. Besides communists, there was no desire to establish a totalitarian government after the Nazis left.”

    Kinda there, however there were a number of ‘resistance groups’, especially more ‘Orthodox Church’ and Communist ones that had similar grand ideas and rhetoric. It depends, when people get desperate they listen to whoever is standing up, so through Europe and other occupied places it varied.

    “There are so many objections that I could find to ordinary insurgents in Nazi occupied Europe to the global Islamic militant movement that I would tire myself out and feel rather silly pointing out such gee whizz statements.”

    Go for it, I don’t like such ‘strawman’ arguments, you do it far to much. You can also list those hundreds of terrorist attacks not to do with oppression and other stuff you’ve pushed forward too.

    “I’m confused by what you’re trying to say.

    But yes, Muslims have only until recently been on the occupied/losing/weaker side in a military conflict.”

    My point here is once again, why have such groups never appeared? And no, Islam hasn’t only recently been in such a situation, ‘Muslim’ lands have been ‘lost’ before etc. Why did no such thing happen then?

    “In prior centuries, Islamist armies were sent out to raid, invade and plunder non-Muslim lands, all justified through the texts and teachings of Islam.”

    Sorry, no, I’m going to again have to ask you to show me where people used Islam to justify this. Because you can’t justify it, Islam will only stand for defensive Jihad, all the rest is up to the state and down to them.

    “Who is they, exactly?

    The majority of Pakistanis who admire Osama bin Laden? The fifty % who held a favorable view of the Taliban (before the Pakistani Taliban began bombing Pakistani targets), the % of Muslims who support the terror group Hamas?

    Should I point out that OBL was named the most popular famous figure in an Arab/Muslim nation only a few years ago?

    Islamist groups only lost much of their support because they began bombing Muslim countries, not because their goals (the formation of an Islamic state) or their ideology is a turn off for most Muslims.”

    First of all, support for Hamas is, to most of us, like support for the IDF, both as bad as each other quite frankly.

    Secondly, you’re facts are kinda there but not completely. Yes, such groups had some support because people saw that, finaly, someone was ‘getting back at the ‘west”, again we hit the oppression, real of not, thing.

    Finally, yes, their ideology bloody well is a turn off! Why do you think so many people hate them? Why do scholars denounce them? Heck, anyone who thinks that killing civilians is OK deserves that hate. That is key to their ideology, the fact that they believe they can kill others and the fact that they feel they can denounce any Muslim not like them as an apostate. Sure, we share the one ‘goal’ (not really) of an ‘Islamic state’ but we also pray and so do they, so it’s really nothing. And the whole ‘Islamic state’ thing amongst the rest of us is not a ‘solid’ ideal anyway.

    “Thank you for agreeing with me that the vast majority of Nazi party members from the formation of their party to the moment they were voted into power never engaged in terrorism, despite the fact that Nazi ideology could be said to have been violent.

    The same could be said of communist groups and individuals. Communism is undoubtedly a violent belief system, but the vast majority of communists in the US will never engage in violence.”

    No, you miss the point, there is no comparison since the majority if not all Nazis supported what the Nazis were doing or actively engaged in it. In other words, the opposite to Islam were, as we have covered, you have but a handful engaged/supporting.

    Communism isn’t really violent, I fail to see the comparison or the point you are making. Sorry.

  57. NassirH Says:

    @Bob

    Considering that you always insist that we Muslims have no right to “tell Christians what they believe in”, you should grant us the same rights and let us decide who is a mainstream Muslims and who isn’t.

    You haven’t shown that al-Qaeda’s religious beliefs are not mainstream.

    Nope. Wrong again. We’ve shown several times that al-Qaeda’s beliefs aren’t mainstream: for example, I mentioned that killing civilians is forbidden. Of course, you ignored this, as you do with every piece of evidence that shatters your thesis (which is, btw, “Muslims are trying to take over the world”).

    I suggest you reply to @Dawood again, as your response obviously didn’t take any facts into consideration. Here is what Dawood posted:

    Again: You deny Muslims the ability to define the miscreants within their own religious tradition as being non-mainstream, yet expect legitimacy when you define the LRA in this way. Do you somehow think that your double-standards will go unchallenged without being highlighted?

    (Bearing in mind that JihadBob didn’t respond to Dawood’s last question—the answer would be yes, JihadBob believes his epic double-standards will go unchallenged.)

    Oh, and I found this wonderful tidbit from JihadBob. It’s another example of his epic double standards.

    Thank you for agreeing with me that the vast majority of Nazi party members from the formation of their party to the moment they were voted into power never engaged in terrorism, despite the fact that Nazi ideology could be said to have been violent.

    The same could be said of communist groups and individuals. Communism is undoubtedly a violent belief system, but the vast majority of communists in the US will never engage in violence.

    Notice that Nazism, a far-right ideology, “could be said have been violent”, while Communism, basically part of the far-left, is “undoubtedly a violent belief system”.

    So apparently Communism is unarguably violent, while the violence of Nazism is debatable. Considering that JihadBob sympathizes with the Confederacy I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a soft spot for Nazism, as both Nazi Germany and the Southern Confederacy are two extinict states championed by far-right folks such as himself.

    For more on JihadBob and the Confederacy:
    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/09/roman-conaway-vet-threatens-muslims-and-obama-in-lead-to-standoff/

  58. Cynic Says:

    So apparently Communism is unarguably violent, while the violence of Nazism is debatable.

    Bahahaha, JihadBob is a joke.

  59. JihadBob Says:

    Considering that you always insist that we Muslims have no right to “tell Christians what they believe in?, you should grant us the same rights and let us decide who is a mainstream Muslims and who isn’t.

    But you haven’t explained what religious practices of al-Qaeda you consider un-Islamic.

    Witchcraft? Paganism? Occult practices and beliefs?

    Do tell.

    We’ve shown several times that al-Qaeda’s beliefs aren’t mainstream: for example, I mentioned that killing civilians is forbidden.

    I thought you said that al-Qaeda’s militant views are political, not religious.

    Besides, haven’t Muslim scholars given the green light to kill civilians in special circumstances in the past?

    Doesn’t Qaradawi advocate suicide bombings inside Israel?

    Is he not a Muslim?

    Lastly, these views are not really beliefs that would make someone fall outside Orthodox Islam – al-Qaeda does not pray to saints like Shia Muslims or believe that OBL is the Messiah, Mahdi or prophet after Islam.

    Using your argument, couldn’t we say that Muslims who do not believe in hand chopping for theft are not real Muslims?

    Stoning married adulterers are not real Muslims?

    Not subscribing to the belief in intra-Koranic abrogation not real Muslims?

    So apparently Communism is unarguably violent, while the violence of Nazism is debatable.

    Well, communism holds as one of its tenets the violent overthrow of Capitalist government.

    How is that belief not inherently violent?

    Besides, you haven’t answered my question – if we are to agree that Nazism and Communism are inherently violent belief systems, then why aren’t the majority of Nazis and Communists terrorists?

    Why aren’t communist party members in the US not blowing everything up as we speak right now?

    You can also list those hundreds of terrorist attacks not to do with oppression and other stuff you’ve pushed forward too.

    I think it was in regards to occupation, not oppression.

    It’s kind of hard to qualify what oppression is since I don’t consider Islamic terrorism in many regions of the world as necessarily being perpetuated because of oppression.

    Why do you think so many people hate them?

    Uh, because they recently managed to blow up tens of thousands of Muslims in the past few years.

    Why do you think al-Qaeda’s popularity after 9/11 was so high in the Muslim world?

    Because their targets weren’t Muslim.

    No, you miss the point, there is no comparison since the majority if not all Nazis supported what the Nazis were doing or actively engaged in it.

    Well, Nazis who deny the Holocaust may not support such actions.

    Besides, we’re talking about a time before the Nazis became a state power.

    Why weren’t all Nazis terrorists?

    Why aren’t all Communists terrorists?

    You asked me why all Muslims aren’t terrorists, hopefully you can find the answer to that question when you answer mine regarding the Nazis or Communists.

  60. Muslim Says:

    “This ignores the huge differences – both quantitative (Islamic radicals are vastly more numerous”

    So the quantitative aspect of “Christian America” under self-proclaimed “Christian” rulers such as Bush & Obama with its (ironically) biggest killing ability in the world (Military Industrial Complex)is whitewashed?

    PS Bliar of the UK also admitted he was inspired by his Christian religion.

    Please note that I do not consider Bush, Bliar etc as genuine Christians despite their crusading rhetoric.

  61. Mosizzle Says:

    “But you haven’t explained what religious practices of al-Qaeda you consider un-Islamic.”

    Terrorism, the rape of young people (both male and female) to guilt them into blowing themselves up, the killing of innocent Muslim and Non-Muslim civilians, the kidnappings (which go against the ethics of war in Islam,even according to medieval Islamic texts), the use of torture on prisoners of war, the persecution of people based on their race even though they are of the same faith (That would be the Pashtuns killing the other ethnicities in Afghanistan), the growing and selling of drugs such as opium , giving fatwas without the religious training necessary (I’m looking at you, Osama!), the destruction of places of residence (prohibited by Caliph Abu-Bakr), the use of suicide, destruction of graves, bombings inside and near mosques, breaking oaths taken during citizenship (Quran states we should honour contracts even if it means other Muslims lose out), the use of compulsion in religion (No it has not been abrogated in the Quran), intolerance for other religions…

    They do some weird things in the name of Islam. And no they are not justified to use any means necessary to advance the cause of Islam. Listen to Imam Al-Sharif (Dr.Fadl), a founder of Al-Qaeda who later gave up his terrorist ways, “There is no such thing in Islam as ends justifying the means.

  62. JihadBob Says:

    So there aren’t any religious practices of al-Qaeda that places them outside the fold of Orthodox Sunni Islam.

    Thought so.

    Now, can you answer me if Muslims who do not believe in hand chopping, stoning adulterers are un-Islamic?

  63. NassirH Says:

    So there aren’t any religious practices of al-Qaeda that places them outside the fold of Orthodox Sunni Islam.

    Um…

    I know this must be embarrasing for you but…

    Mossizle posted:

    Terrorism, the rape of young people (both male and female) to guilt them into blowing themselves up, the killing of innocent Muslim and Non-Muslim civilians, the kidnappings (which go against the ethics of war in Islam,even according to medieval Islamic texts), the use of torture on prisoners of war, the persecution of people based on their race even though they are of the same faith (That would be the Pashtuns killing the other ethnicities in Afghanistan), the growing and selling of drugs such as opium , giving fatwas without the religious training necessary (I’m looking at you, Osama!), the destruction of places of residence (prohibited by Caliph Abu-Bakr), the use of suicide, destruction of graves, bombings inside and near mosques, breaking oaths taken during citizenship (Quran states we should honour contracts even if it means other Muslims lose out), the use of compulsion in religion (No it has not been abrogated in the Quran), intolerance for other religions…

  64. Mosizzle Says:

    What the friggin’ hell, Jihadbob?

    Did you read what I wrote?? All of those things have been explicitly (I repeat: explicitly) forbid by both medieval scholars (who are supposedly extremist) and contemporary scholars of Islam. In other words those things are forbidden in Islam and Al Qaeda does them.

  65. Khushboo Says:

    Mo, you should know him by now. He’s thinking ‘Facts, Schmacts’.:)

  66. Syed Says:

    JihadBob said, “Now, can you answer me if Muslims who do not believe in hand chopping, stoning adulterers are un-Islamic?”

    Martin Luther wrote, “We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]” — On the Jews and Their Lies

    Now can you answer me if Christians who do not believe in slaying are un-Christian?

  67. Khushboo Says:

    Bob, stoning is not mentioned in the Quran at all.

    As for stealing, you must read more than just one verse:

    5:39 And whoever turns back to Allah(swt) after doing wrong, and reforms (his being),then surely Allah (swt) shall turn towards him. Truly Allah (swt) is Ever-Forgiving.

    If God is forgiving, surely we can be too.

  68. JihadBob Says:

    Bob, stoning is not mentioned in the Quran at all.

    Nice deflection.

    I asked if holding views contrary to the teachings of the schools of jurisprudence puts one outside the fold of Islam, at least the fold of those schools of thought.

    All schools of thought believe that stoning is a permissible punishment, so are Muslims who are against stoning not Sunni or Shia Muslims???

  69. JihadBob Says:

    5:39 And whoever turns back to Allah(swt) after doing wrong, and reforms (his being),then surely Allah (swt) shall turn towards him. Truly Allah (swt) is Ever-Forgiving.

    So which school of thought in Sunni or Shia Islam prohibits hand chopping?

    And for the ones where hand chopping is permitted (I’ll go ahead and assume all or most), would Muslims who follow these traditions no longer fall into the fold of these traditions?

    They could call themselves Muslims but they could no longer say that they are Hanbali or Hanafi?

  70. Khushboo Says:

    Your question above was whether hand chopping and stoning is unIslamic and I answered. I, like many others, am a Sunni Muslim who don’t belong to any school of thought and that does not make me less of a Muslim. I know that most Muslim countries except Saudi Arabia don’t chop off a thief’s hand, but instead fine them and put them in jail. Stoning is a cultural, brutal punishment and is certainly not Islamic. Only minority radicals (some Wahabis) believe this is Islamic or maybe it’s just to gain power over people(i.e. the gov’t.).

  71. Mosizzle Says:

    Jihadbob has gone crazy so I’ll just answer him by telling him what my Imam said in Friday sermon: “Denying any part of Islam doesn’t make you a non-Muslim but ridiculing an Islamic belief does”. So there you have it.

    If you don’t believe in hand chopping and stoning it doesn’t make you a kaffir but don’t make fun of it.

  72. Mosizzle Says:

    Also, fellow Muslims, we should be under no pressure to change our beliefs and practices just because some Islamophobe says so or because some human rights organization thinks it’s wrong for us to throw stones at adulterers but has no problem with America using banned chemical weapons in Fallujah, where babies are still being born disabled.

  73. Khushboo Says:

    The main thing is that if you believe in one God, his Book, the Quran, messengers incl. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the last messenger, and the afterlife, you’re a muslim, no matter if you’re Shia or Sunni.

  74. JihadBob Says:

    I agree with you that al-Qaeda are Muslims and I also agree with you that their religious views are in line with mainstream Islam.

  75. Dawood Says:

    That’s really the best response you can come up with JihadBob? Lame.

  76. Mosizzle Says:

    Truly lame. One question for Jihadbob. I assume your aim with all this Islamophobia is to eliminate jihad/terrorism so does saying that terrorism is an essential part of Islam make Muslims more or less likely to take part in terrorism.

    Jihadwatch basically is defeating all the moderate Muslims that are painstakingly trying to convince young Muslims that they should be good members of society rather than terrorists. But all that spencer does is accuse them of lying and makes sure that young Muslims get the opposite message. Wouldn’t it actualy help your cause if you said that terrorism was forbidden by Islam (which it is) so that everyone could get along? This proves that Spencer does not care about the welfare of humanity but is trying to defeat Islam by making it seem impossible to reform and then he can spread his extreme intpretationf of Catholicism.

  77. Khushboo Says:

    but Bob, is Al Quaeda really going by the Quran? Killing of innocents is a sin and I know I’m not the first one telling you this. I’m sure You’ve heard all the explanations before. I’m kinda new here so I guess I still have a little patience left but please don’t push it. I frankly don’t care if you insult terrorists but please,enough of insulting our religion and the majority of the good moderate Muslims. Peace!

  78. JihadBob Says:

    but Bob, is Al Quaeda really going by the Quran?

    They are offering their own interpretation of the texts and teachings of Islam.

    You’ll have to ask Jihadists how they are justifying their violence.

    Guessing that the Jihadist discourse has monopolized and dominated any other opposing viewpoints in the Muslim world, I’m going to guess their argument and logic is much more solid than the members here would like to admit in front of the Kuffar.

    I frankly don’t care if you insult terrorists but please,enough of insulting our religion and the majority of the good moderate Muslims. Peace!

    I haven’t insulted anyone, including ‘terrorists’ and Saladin, etc.

    Please quote my comment where you think I insulted a single individual.

  79. NassirH Says:

    Please quote my comment where you think I insulted a single individual.

    Sure.

    That’s because you, like most Muslims, are supporters of Islamo-fascism.

    I was kind of half expecting for Zakariya to submerge from the cesspool he resides in and respond to my comments directed to him.

    Surely not idiots like Danios and the rest of the morons at his well funded site ?

    LoL

    What a shameless liar. I can bring some more quotes if you like kind JihadBob.

  80. Khushboo Says:

    You don’t think comparing Al Qaeda with mainstream Islam (meaning us followers) is insulting?
    They might be Muslim but most of us certainly don’t agree with their views and it’s certainly not Islamic. They think suicide bombing is okay, there will be 72 virgins in heaven which I have yet to find in the Quran, and killing of innocents is okay when it’s really a sin.

    Book 23 vol. 2 #446: The Prophet said, “He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hellfire (forever)”

    An-Nisa 4:29 And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another) Surely Allah (swt) is most merciful.

  81. Khushboo Says:

    *reads Nassir’s comment* Oh Bob, I believe you just got owned!

  82. Jack Cope Says:

    Sorry, is he *still* arguing that Al-Queda share stuff? Oh dear…

    Yes Bob, they share stuff like they pray fast and so on, correct. That’s it though, they stray massively on the other stuff.

    “Guessing that the Jihadist discourse has monopolized and dominated any other opposing viewpoints in the Muslim world, I’m going to guess their argument and logic is much more solid than the members here would like to admit in front of the Kuffar.”

    Sorry, just wrong, why do you think so many Muslims speak out against them and disagree with them? I’ve never met a single Muslim who agrees with them, not one and I get around a lot. Not that you’d know, having never spoken to us… If you want a nice long detailed look into it, I recommend this Fatwa:

    http://www.minhajbooks.com/english/bookid/376/Fatwa:-Suicide-Bombing-and-Terrorism-by-Shaykh-ul-Islam-Dr-Muhammad-Tahir-ul-Qadri.html

    And Mosizzle has repeatedly hit the nail on the head regarding your ’cause’… as has been stated to you many times, if you really care etc then why do you continue to alienate your greatest allies, i.e. the majority of Muslims? It really brings into doubt your true aims, I think we all know what they *really* are…

  83. JihadBob Says:

    That’s because you, like most Muslims, are supporters of Islamo-fascism.

    That’s where my definition of Islamo-fascism includes curbing free speech.

    I really don’t think any Islamo-fascist would take such a comment negatively.

    But try it for yourself, will a Klan member mind it you call them a racist?

    The last two ‘quotes’ are taken out of context. My response to Zakariya was a typo – I went on to clarify that I mean emerge, not submerge from his cesspool.

    Submerge doesn’t even make sense.

    Pointing out that Danios operates a well oiled and obviously well funded site does not seem to have been an insulting compliment to me – only if you think taking money from shady players is an insult, I suppose.

    They think suicide bombing is okay

    So does Qaradawi.

    Neither al-Qaeda nor Qaradawi view martyrdom operations as acts of suicide.

    I agree with them, and it’s besides the point, the Koran says in more than one verse that Muslims who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded with Paradise.

    It’s not my fault that these verses are logical inconsistencies with other passages in the Koran and hadith.

    Sorry, just wrong, why do you think so many Muslims speak out against them and disagree with them?

    Because they’ve recently managed to kill tens of thousands of Muslims in the past few years???

  84. JihadBob Says:

    * insulting remark

  85. NassirH Says:

    Your above comments are a perfect example of your dishonesty. I made my point and you proved it.

    Game. Set. Match.

    Anyways, thanks for at least admitting you’re a liar.

    * insulting remark

    Easy there. You’re not helping you’re argument when you’re proving me right consistently.

  86. JihadBob Says:

    Translation: “Mommy, mean Christian JihadBob is terrorizing us innocent Muslims with his arguments. Please, make that mean, wild-eyed, blood thirsty Christian bigot go away!”

  87. Syed Says:

    JihadBob said, “Please, make that mean, wild-eyed, blood thirsty Christian bigot go away!”

    Amen to that!

  88. NassirH Says:

    Surprising.

    JihadBob has been reduced to making more childish comments.

  89. Zakariya Ali Sher Says:

    Hahaha, wow. It looks like Cheryl (or Miss Manners, or wanna-be Pam Geller, or post-op jihad robbie… I can’t tell them apart these days) is really on a roll here. It’s hilarious.

    You claim that Islam isn’t a religion and that there’s no such such as ‘anti-Islam,’ yet you don’t even see your own bigotry as you spew this crap. I can only imagine that you aren’t very well traveled and have never met or known a Muslim in person, so what gives? Where does all this blind hatred come from, because it seems FAR too passionate for someone with no personal involvement.

    Where to start? Okay… lets start with the fact that you paint all Muslims with the same broad brush. You DO know how big the Muslim world is, right? All of those countries could be considered ‘Muslim majority,’ and many are not ‘Arab’ or in the ‘Middle East’ either. Uzbekistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Nigeria, Mali, Senegal, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, the Maldives, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Chad, Niger….

    So how are we all part of some HUGE political movement when we live in different countries, speak different languages, and believe in different things? Do we Shi’a ‘belong to the same political conspiracy’ as Sunnis, because if we do that’s news to me! I guess I should expect to see more people mourning during Achoura and putting up pictures of the Imams in their homes. Considering there are only a couple of Shi’a masjid in my immediate area, that’ll be good news for me!

    And how many masjid preach ‘anti-America’ stuff? The ones I go to are mostly apolitical, and I know of a Sunni mosque in my area that is actually pretty conservative. Sure, I know some fellow Muslims who criticize America, but then I also know lots of non-Muslims who do. I think that there are plenty of things to criticize about our government… MY government, in fact. Foreign policy would certainly be one them, but the growing influence of the evangelical minority would be another one.

    Yes, I think that we have far, far more to fear from you than the other way around. You are the one posting your fantasies about the American people ‘rising up’ and carrying out genocide against fellow Americans! I’m not making this up or exaggerating. I can see the posts RIGHT HERE with my very own eyes! So you apparently don’t believe in freedom of religion, or rather, you believe in freedom for people to believe exactly as you do… or else.

    I’m going to guess that you aren’t much for gay rights either? Or equality for men and women? Or even multi-culturalism and tolerance between races? And to think we Muslims are called bigoted. The fact is, you fantasy about a non-existent past where America was ‘white’ and ‘Christian’ and we minorities were kept out of sight and out of power. The scary thing is that you evangelicals have the motivation, desire and even ability to seize power in this country, despite being a relatively small minority yourself. It’s just that politicians are more than willing to court evangelicals and baptists…

    Anyway, I am a Muslim. I am proud to be a Muslim, and will cling to my beliefs because I WANT to. I believe in Islam, as it was passed down by the Ahl al-Bay’t. I am more than happy to elucidate my philosophy too. Why should I be afraid or try and please people who hate me anyway? I’m not trying to earn your approval, and you have NOTHING that I want or need.

  90. Zakariya Ali Sher Says:

    Hmmm… since my image didn’t post, follow this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_majority_countries.

    Yes, it is wikipedia, but it includes a map by percentage, along with a list of Muslim-majority countries, their populations, the percentage practicing Islam, the dominant sect and school of jurisprudence, the legal status of Islam, the national GDP, and the type of government. I know you probably won’t read it, but its rather educational.

  91. Garo Says:

    Michael Medved is nothing more than a hard core Zionist who would not miss an opportunity that would come in his way to demonize Islam. I listen to his Radio-Talk-Show almost daily,just to see how far he can go in his silly prejudice against Islam.

    Hizbullah and Hamas drive him crazy. And as a result,he bombards his listeners with a parade of incoherent,contradictary and irrational views about Islam,especially about the Shari’a law.

    He has never missed a chance not to bring the suicide bombers in his rants,as Islam/Shari’a laws is the topic of the dialogue with his listeners.

  92. Garo Says:

    Anyone who is interested in visiting Israel can do so by joining Michael Medved and his wife in their GROUP YEARLY tour of their beloved Israel!!

    When he invites people,on his Radio-Talk-Show,to join him in such a tour to Israel,he sounds like a true believer in the “virtues?” of his beloved Israel.

    But,for a critical listener like myself,Michael Medved sounds nothing more than a cheap propagandist for a foreign power.Period.

  93. art Says:

    @JihadBob

    Hey, every1, christians and jews in Europe dont need to organize underground military ogr because THE SECULAR ARMIES OF THEIR COUNTRIES DO THE JOB FOR THEM,
    American state supports Israel with weapons and technology, american troops go to kill muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, Russian army goes to fight in Chechnya, Arab states around Israel protect its borders;

    If Muslim States obeyed muslim voice, there wouldnt be occupide Palestine today, ther wouldnt be Mubaraks, or Saudis of todays ruling them,
    —Thats why muslims organize themselves !!!

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