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On The #Orlando Massacre

People attend a candlelight vigil for the victims of the Orlando attack against a gay night club, held in San Francisco, California, U.S. June 12, 2016. REUTERS/Stephen Lam

People attend a candlelight vigil for the victims of the Orlando attack against a gay night club, held in San Francisco, California, U.S. June 12, 2016. REUTERS/Stephen Lam

The past week has been a roller coaster for Muslim Americans. Muhammad Ali’s passing which was a tragedy brought the country together and for a moment Islam and Muslims were human again. Ali, represented the best of Islam and was a “radical Muslim” in his own right. He reminded America and the world that to be a “radical Muslim” doesn’t need only conjure images of ISIS and Alqaeda fighters. Just a day later, a man named Omar Mateen, attacked an Orlando gay bar massacring 50 and injuring 53 people. It is important here to speak out and condemn homophobia and all that contributes to it. Orlando and those affected by the attacks are in our thoughts.

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  • 1DrM

    Yep, atheists happily worshiping proponents of terrorism.

  • 1DrM

    Atheists don’t let facts and figures get in the way of their petty ideological zealotry, and dishonesty.

  • Maybe Christian-majority countries such as France, the UK and the US should stop tearing up and plundering other people’s countries? Then not so many refugees and migrants will show up on their shores.

    Also, not quite right. There are many immigrants in Muslim-majority countries. Turkey has taken in many and built towns for them. Even Saudi Arabia, contrary to popular opinion, has accepted refugees:

    Western Media’s Miscount of Saudi Arabia’s Syrian Refugees
    About 2.5 million in the last 5 years:

  • Alyeth

    *Forgets that Muslims made evolutionary theory back in the 700s

  • Alyeth

    Hmmm, sounds familiar….
    Are you back, Mr.Brevik?

  • Alyeth
  • (((Reynardine)))

    Wayall, dayum. My understanding is that conversions on the Subcontinent to both Islam and Christianity were spurred by people being sick and tired of the caste system, and though both my father, in his youth, and most of my college friends had taken Catholic communion, none of them remotely thought it was long pork, nor would they have consumed it if they thought it was.

    I was not brought up Catholic, but at one point did most of my work with priests and nuns who were formidable intellects and tireless in charity. They were not, and did not imagine themselves to be, cannibals.

  • (((Reynardine)))

    The sins of these cities were that they were violent, rapacious, uncharitable, and breakers of hospitality.

  • (((Reynardine)))

    How do laws prevent me from blowing my neighbor’s ugly head away? (Quote from song, “Greenback Dollar). I might find a way to knock her off undetected, but the norm, at least when I was brought up, was that a civilized person doesn’t murder. The current culture of the ever more open carry of ever more dangerous weapons has shoved the Overton window considerably towards the legitimation of violence, intimidation, and murder.

  • (((Reynardine)))

    It’s probably a book of Gregg shorthand. He thinks it’s Arabic.

  • (((Reynardine)))

    I imagine your version of a death threat is when someone said to you, “Eat [stercus] and die”. Or maybe, “Dry up and blow away” or “suck up and bust”.

  • AJ

    I think I said it right if Sharia imposes death for homosexuality, which I think it does coming from ahadith as someone said here.

  • (((Reynardine)))

    What is this? The Protocols of the Elders of Mecca?

  • (((Reynardine)))

    Non sequitur.

  • Just_Stopping_By

    “The punishment of death for homosexuality exists in countries with Sharia and after the proper procedures have been carried out including witness reports.”

    “The proper procedures” for imposing the “punishment of death for homosexuality.” I hope I’m misreading you and that is not a prevalent view of the proper role of Sharia.

  • AJ

    Our religion is the fastest growing one while Hinduism stays constant or dwindles. Guess which one is more popular, mate?

  • AJ

    The fact that theology commands a punishment for a crime doesn’t warrant individuals to take law into their hands and churn out that punishment on unsuspecting people. The punishment of death for homosexuality exists in countries with Sharia and after the proper court procedures have been carried out including witness reports. Just as ordinary Muslims can’t cut off hands for theft or stone adulterers to death on streets, just like that people can’t shoot down homosexuals in bars and in countries where Sharia is not even implemented.

  • Well it seems fair to blame what’s done in the “name of Islam” that is actually prescribed in Islam. But if something is contrary to the doctrine, then it doesn’t make sense to pin it on Islam. That is a Muslim doing something, which doesn’t make it a part of the doctrine.

    For example, murder is illegal in the US. If an American murders someone, it doesn’t become part of American law. It is *in spite* of the law, not because of it.

    So take for example drunk (some reports said) migrants sexually assaulting women. Drinking and sexual assault is prohibited in Islam. You can be a Muslim and do this things, but not “in the name of Islam” because they are not allowed in Islam. Do you see this distinction?

  • Pragney

    I have no problem with refugees. I have a problem with economic migrants and those that break the law and don’t abide by Swedish cultural norms. I blame all actors Muslim or otherwise. It appears from the data available Muslims are doing the damage. Disproportionate to population size: inter-generational under achievement/welfare dependency (compared to Swedes), rape/sex assaults of Swedish women, crime and terrorism, joining Islamic State.

    Why would mainly Muslims treat Sweden and the Swedish like this? Why? We help and have a history of doing helping. Sweden is acknowledged throughout the world as a humanitarian superpower. Sweden has have nothing to do with war.

    I blame the Swedish government and the electorate MORE for this problem.

    To clarify: I blame Islam for what Muslims say and do in the name of Islam and don’t deny or downplay the significance of religion in Muslims motivations. That’s unambiguous and succinct, I think. No need to further mischaracterise, misrepresent or insult.

  • Awesome

    For all that has been said about this latest massacre, very little is mentioned of Mr. Mateen’s accomplices, which eye-witnesses reported about. Then there is Mr. Mateen’s interactions with the FBI for the 10 months leading up to the massacre:
    And why exactly would he call 911 to proclaim allegiance to ISIS? Also, why would the FBI tell his ex-wife not tell the American media that he was gay?
    And it took the SWAT team 3 hours before storming the club?

    Yet, people seem to only be interested in politicizing this massacre with identity politics and gun control. If people focused on what is more important, then these massacres might not happen so much.

  • Awesome

    Well the issue over strong and weak Hadith is a separate but very important issue.

    For the claim that Prophet Muhammad gave an “explicit command to kill those who have gay sex” as well as “it’s integration into Islamic jurisprudence” it is very important. Without any prescribed legal punishment or the death penalty, gay sex is just a sin like any other.

    Muslims LOVE to brag about how unaltered the Koran is compared to the Bible, but they don’t mention how much they argue over which Hadith are valid and which are not.

    The Qur’an (Recitation) is a recital composed of 6,236 divinely-revealed verses, divided into 114 chapters, and revealed to Prophet Muhammad over the course of 22 years as guidance for humanity until the Day of Judgment. The ahadith are orally-transmitted narrative accounts and reports of varying authenticity and importance by various individuals recounting what Prophet Muhammad and his companions allegedly said and did during that time period, some of which is in regards to the Qur’an. The two sources comprise the codified basis for Islam and are obviously very different from each other, even though they were both transmitted from the same group of people. That there are arguments over the validity of certain ahadith is to be expected in light of this. The Bible and the Qur’an are primary sources for their respective religions, while the ahadith are not, and therefore do not factor into that comparison.

    However, even with the questionable authenticity of certain ahadith, there is still generally a documented isnad (chain of transmission) for their sources as well as biographies of them. That is more than can be said for the vast majority of other orally-transmitted narrative accounts.

  • The Ottoman Empire no longer exists. Major imperial powers are the US, Britain, and France. They are involved today, not only in the distant past.

    It was a US-led coalition that destroyed an entire nation. Imagine if it were the other way around. Instead of America destroying Iraq, Iraq had destroyed France or the UK. Hard to even imagine, isn’t it? Because the reality is the vast majority of violence is aimed at Muslim-majority countries, not the other way around.

    If you’re mad about refugees and migrants in Sweden, blame the people who (1) tear up and impoverish their native lands (2) the people who formulate your country’s policies. Blaming Islam for the failure of Western leaders is foolish misdirection.

  • MichaelElwood

    Logical wrote: “You ask me what is anti-gay about a story where two cities are destroyed because the citizens engaged in gay sex?”

    Really? I thought they were destroyed because they tried to rape Lot’s guests and engaged in other degenerate behaviour. There’s even a technical term for this in classical Sunni jurisprudence. It’s called “hirabah”. And it includes things like rape, highway robbery, terrorism, etc. But, given your extensive knowledge of “Islamic jurisprudence,” I’m sure you already know that.

    Logical wrote: “Your story of Mohammad banishing a mildly trans man isn’t very good either.”

    What happened to “Muhammad’s explicit command to kill those who have gay sex”?

    Logical wrote: “I just today got a death threat for insulting Mohammad.”

    Join the club! Now you know how Muslims feel. Muslims get threats from atheist keyboard warriors all the time (and from prominent atheist “intellectuals,” who shall remain nameless). Just the other day, an atheist said:

    “The ultimate non political correct solution to this mess before Islam takes over the United States…Burn every mosque to the ground. ‘Honor’ kill every man, woman and child who are Islamic Muslims. (there will be collateral damage) It’s our only hope.”

    And another atheist told me:

    “Humanity must kill off Islam no matter how many muslims die”

    By the way, do you have a link to this “death threat” you received?

  • MichaelElwood

    Logical wrote: “In the case of Islam and gay rights it isn’t a false dilemma at all. Basic research would tell you that.”

    It IS a false dilemma to say that one can either protect the rights of Muslims, or protect the rights homosexuals, but not both. As for “basic research,” you and other Islamophobes wouldn’t know it if it were staring you in the face.

    Logical wrote: “But you prefer to ignore reality and believe that people don’t REALLY believe what their religions tell them.”

    You haven’t proved that killing homosexuals is what their religion tells them, remember?

    Logical wrote: “Your entire comment is a strawman argument. How is THAT for logic?”

    How is it a strawman argument to address head-on the claim that you made (e.g. that Muhammad ordered Muslims to kill homosexuals)?

  • MichaelElwood

    Journey wrote: “You don’t need an explicit command in the Koran for followers of Islam to engage in Jihad against ‘non innocents’.”

    If there’s no explicit command in the Quran to kill non-Muslim civilians, then how are the people who do it “followers of Islam” in any meaningful sense? Haven’t quite figured that one out yet, eh? In fact, once again, the Quran says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Islamophobes claim:

    “O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, ‘You are not a believer,’ seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do” [Quran 4:94]

    Journey wrote: “. . . .and the commands in the Koran to commit violence, are more than enough. Some of the troubling verses include Sura 9: the last chapter to be revealed.”

    You mean the verses that tell Muslims to defend themselves against non-Muslim aggressors? Like the verse below:

    “Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place. . . ?” [Quran 9:13]

    That’s what you find “troubling”?

    Journey wrote: “And verses such as: (2:191-193) – Fitnah is worse than slaughter … (fitnah is impurity/sin)”

    Fitnah doesn’t mean “impurity” or “sin”. It means oppression or persecution. All words from the FTN root have a similar meaning (i.e., to persecute or harm). For example, verse 4:101 says that Muslims can shorten their prayers: “. . . .if you fear that those who disbelieve may harm you/in khiftum an yaFTiNakumu alladhina kafaru. . . .”. And verse 85:10 says: “. . . .those who persecuted the believing men and women/alladhina FaTaNu l-mu’minina wa l-mu’minati. . . .”. Verses 2:191-192 are also in reference to the oppression and persecution of the Muslim community during Muhummad’s lifetime. And you find this “troubling” because. . . ?

    Journey wrote: “2:216 Fighting (the word is qatal, which means killing in Arabic) is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not'”

    Of all the verses in the Quran, you quote the one that proves that Muslims during Muhammad’s lifetime disliked fighting! Muslims during Muhammad’s lifetime fought because they HAD TO (to defend themselves against their belligerent enemies), not because they WANTED TO, as other verses from the same chapter prove:

    “You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.” [Quran 2:190-191]

    Journey wrote: “what kind of sick mind could have written those verses? Certainly not a god, nor even a sane human being.”

    What type of sick mind could have teased the EXACT OPPOSITE meaning from these verses? certainly not a sane human being!

    Journey wrote: “No, don’t tell me these verses were only commands in that time and place, because you know it’s none sense. The Koran is eternal: it has always been and will always be what it says.”

    I’d be remiss if I don’t point out that the verses you tried to pass off as commanding unprovoked aggression against non-Muslims were actually in the historical context of defensive warfare (as numerous verses in the Quran attest):

    “Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: ‘Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive. . . .'” [Quran 4:75]

    “The disbelievers plot and scheme to neutralize you, or kill you, or banish you. However, they plot and scheme, but so does GOD. GOD is the best schemer.” [Quran 8:30]

    “Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place. . .?” [Quran 9:13]

    “Those who emigrated for the sake of GOD, because they were persecuted, we will surely make it up to them generously in this life, and the recompense of the Hereafter is even greater, if they only knew.” [Quran 16:41]

    “As for those who emigrate because of persecution, then continue to strive and steadfastly persevere, your Lord, because of all this, is Forgiver, Most Merciful.” [Quran 16:110]

    “They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, ‘Our Lord is GOD. . . .'” [Quran 22:40]

    “. . . .They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in GOD, your Lord. . . .” [Quran 60:1]

    Journey wrote: “You people need to reject the Koran and Islam and stand for humanity, or there will be a growing list of ‘sinners’ and ‘impurities’ killed by Muhammad’s followers.”

    You and other Islamophobes need to actually read the Quran. Or at the very least, stop going to places where people who have actually read the Quran are known to congregate, so that you can avoid further embarrassment.

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