Native American
Daniel Pipes–one of the “Dirty Dozen” leading Islamophobes of the country according to FAIR–recently taunted Palestinian people in a hate-filled post, saying:
The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.
A sensible commentator voiced LoonWatch‘s opinion:
“Isn’t the charge (and belief) that the Palestinians are a defeated people, however true, incendiary, at worst; taunting, at best? And to what purpose?”
The dwelling of the Palestinian "defeated people"
Amazingly, Pipes sees nothing wrong with his comment, saying: “The world may quote me on it…” Racists and bigots in general have this problem: they say something completely offensive and inappropriate, and then not only do they refuse to rescind what they said, but are actually completely unable to see what is wrong with it to begin with. This is because their mind operates differently than the rest of us: they are oblivious to the obvious. They say what we could never say due to human decency.
However, Pipes’ comment is not without precedent. In fact, there was another ethnic group which was constantly referred to by white racists as “a defeated people.” I’m talking about the Native Americans. This idea–that Native Americans are a “defeated people”–was started by the American settlers who wished to steal Native American land. We read (emphasis is mine):
Iroquois delegates at Fort Stanwix tried to argue for the Ohio River as the boundary to Indian lands, but the American commissioners would have none of it. “You are a subdued people,” they lectured the delegates..When chiefs of the Wyandots, Chippewas, Delawares, and Ottawas said they regarded the lands transferred by Britain to the United States as still rightfully belonging to them, the American commissioners answered them “in a high tone,” and reminded them that they were a defeated people. At Fort Finney, when Shawnees balked at the American terms [for peace] and refused…one of the American commissioners…told them to accept the terms or face the consequences.
(The American Revolution in Indian Country, by Colin Gordon Calloway, pp.282-283)
I must of course thank Daniel Pipes for using the exact same phrase and of providing the perfect analogy, as the Palestinians are in a similar situation as the one the Native Americans found themselves in when the American settlers tried to steal their land. Just like there were American settlers back then stealing land, there are today Israeli settlers trying to steal Palestinian land.
The dwelling of the Native American "defeated people"
The above quote fits the analogy perfectly: the Palestinians define their land as West of the Jordan River (consisting of the West Bank and Gaza with the right of return), just as the Iroquois argued for the boundary of the Ohio River. The Native Americans regarded the land as theirs, despite the fact that the British had “transferred” the land to the American settlers; again, the Palestinians still regard the land as theirs, despite the British transfer of the land to Israelis after the mandate period. And of course the American settlers were of the view that the Native Americans “must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.” It was necessary for the occupier and colonizer to imbue in the natives a learned helplessness, a feeling of absolute demoralization and self-loathing, so that they would accept terms of peace that were completely slanted against them.
It is the language of the white supremacist and colonizer which Daniel Pipes has adopted. The object of denigration has simply changed from the “warlike” Indian “pagans” to the “warlike” brown Muslims. The American settlers indoctrinated the Native Americans with the idea that they are “a defeated people,” until they started believing it themselves:
In the past, many Indians saw themselves as a defeated people whose land was occupied and whose lives were dominated by their conquerors…[which] caused major psychological problems in Indian communities. In some ways the Native Americans shared a defeated status with Mexican-Americans…
Their reservations became virtual prisons…At an Indian conference held during the 1950s, the speakers concluded that as far as the Siouan peoples of the Plains were concerned “most Indian assumptions are negative, unenthusiastic and fearful–the outlook of a beaten people.”
…[Whites] recognized the Indians’ precarious status…as “Persons of little worth…”
(The American Indian: Past and Present, by Roger Nicols, pp.130-131)
Daniel Pipes
This concept of “a defeated people” is intrinsically imperialistic and offensive, and is no longer appropriate to use in the post-colonial era. People should not be conquered. One can only imagine the reaction if the American president taunted the Iraqi people by saying that “the Iraqis are a defeated people.” Governments and regimes may be defeated; but should we seek to defeat an entire people? This idea of one people defeating another is archaic and incendiary.
Nowadays, Native Americans are fighting these horrible stereotypes of being “a defeated people”–a label placed on them by the settlers. A writer for The Native American Community Explorer writes:
It was recently said by a commentator that American Indians are “a broken and defeated people” …In actuality, American Indians are probably the most stalwart people in the United States. Consider this – the American Indians as a group of people have suffered and continues to suffer at the hands of an unjust civil and criminal system that began with Manifest Destiny and continues through today and are still a proud and strong people that are carrying on their traditions and culture with laughter and life. Despite concerted efforts by the colonizers and the US Government to eradicate all traces of the Indigenous population – we are still here.
Palestinians can also claim to be a “stalwart people” who refuse to disappear despite the concerted efforts of another form of Manifest Destiny, i.e. Eretz Israel or “Greater Israel.” The Palestinians can proudly proclaim: “we are still here.”
A member of the Spirit Lake Dakota Nation lamented that the racist attitudes towards Native Americans as “a defeated people” persists:
[They] see us as nothing more than a defeated, broken down race of people who constantly complain about being victimized.
In a similar vein, Pipes and company view Palestinians as a “defeated, broken down race of people who constantly complain about being victimized.”
So this is the racially loaded and highly offensive terminology that Daniel Pipes uses; in fact, it is the same language used by white supremacists. Emmeric, a senior member and active donor to the Stormfront forum, says of the Native Americans:
They are a defeated and broken race.
Bravo, Dr. Pipes! You are in good company!
The undertones in Daniel Pipes’s statement are racist. His use of the demeaning phrase “a defeated people” is purposeful, and it is a slur that has a history of abuse by racists. Therefore, he cannot hide behind the claim that it is merely a definitional understanding. Rather, it has a deeper historical connotation, and an imperial “high tone” to it.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Excellent post! Thank you for writing it. Pipes is vile. I would love to drop him in a Palestinian refugee camp and make him experience life as a Palestinian. Its true, the Native Americans are still here after all their suffering and the Palestinians are not defeated, they have maintained a national movement in the face of military and cultural oppression. Both cultures and history are a testament to strength and spirit.
Also, if the Palestinians are to recognise they are defeated, what then? I don’t quite understand what these loony Zionists actually think will happen if the Palestinians give up their claim to a state….they aren’t about to vanish. Their presence (even if totally docile) upsets the Israel project. Apartheid states are not sustainable.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Danios, thanks again for a fine article. I do not agree with a number of points Mr Pipes has put forth over the years, he is not quite up to the task in some subjects. This recent tirade seems to me to be nothing more than his usual spouting and don’t quite see the reason to go into depth and try to compare his remarks to native Indians. Its, to me a stretch and a waste of time.
However since you have brought up Palestine by way of Mr Pipes, if I may let me put forth a number of sources on Palestine and their views therein:
“There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it”.
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -
“There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not”.
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -
“It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria”.
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -
Also there is this:
“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel”.
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council – March 1977, Dutch Magazine “Trouw”
…and this…
“You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people”.
Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat
There is no Palestinian coinage, no historical markers, nothing to indicate the exsistence of a “Palestinian” people. Arab, yes. Palestinian, no.
Also let me throw this out as well. It is entirely the fault of the Arab League that Palestinians live in such squalor today. If not for their doctrinal hatred of the Jews, “People of the Book” for the last 1400 years and their insistence that they will not accept anything less than the elimination of Israel, and their refusal to accept the land given to them the Palestinians would have their homeland and there would be (relative) peace in the region.
I feel for the “Palestinians” as their own leaders have failed them. 60 years of subjugation by those who claim to be their protectors would make anyone mad. It is a shame that the hatred is directed at those who hold much less responsibility for their plight that they are willing to admit.
I await the responses.
September 14th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Dear Nissa: Thank you.
Dear OregonJake:
Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. This seems to be a case of “well, I can’t defend Pipes on this issue, but what about this (totally unrelated thing)???” Please stay on point. This website is not designed to be a debate forum. When we have comments, they are designed to generate discussion about the actual post itself.
So from now on, I will be clipping your irrelevant points, if they are not related to the topic at hand. This is not specific to you but to anybody. This particular post was about Daniel Pipes’s horrific choice of words, not the horribleness of the Palestinian people, which you seem to imply.
I will however allow it this time, and respond as follows:
1. Your first argument is the played out and offensive Islamophobic argument that Palestinian people do not exist. You mentioned a few quotes, and I’m sure most of them are as spurious as the other ones you quoted in the Bat Ye’or article. You also quoted Syrians, Saudis, etc., (who have a vested interest and a belief in pan-Arabism) as if a couple isolated quotes from random individuals is indicative of anything.
But all that aside, the state of Pakistan never existed prior to 1947. Do we then say that Pakistani people do not exist, or that there is no such thing as Pakistanis? Was the land of Pakistan unoccupied prior to 1947, where all of a sudden Pakistanis spawned from the underworld? No. Obviously, the Pakistani people existed: they simply went by another name prior to 1947. So it is just a matter of names and semantics. But they existed as a people. Likewise, Palestinians existed as a people prior to 1947, and they were then expelled from their lands and occupied by outsiders.
To deny their very existence because the name they used primarily to describe themselves changed (which in itself is a statement which must be proven first, since I doubt it’s even true), well, that’s ludicrous. There are European nation-states which never existed separately before and were part of larger empires. Does that mean that those people don’t belong to that land and another country can just invade and occupy them?
Would you also deny that Jordanians exist, since after all, there was no country CALLED Jordan before, but rather it was simply called “Shaam” (Syria)? So I guess we could also conquer and expel Jordanians.
So even if we accept your claim that Palestinians are just Syrians, then so what? What does that do for your argument? If Russia invaded California, do you think they could argue: ‘Well, there is no such thing as a country of Californians–just Americans! So therefore our invasion is justified.’ The strange way Islamophobes think is amazing. Denying the existence of the Palestinian people is exactly the same kind of thing as denying the Holocaust. Anyone who does such things should be severely censured.
Then you say: “Also let me throw this out as well.”
Like I said, you are just throwing stuff out. Random stuff that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Then you blame the Arabs and Palestinians for the situation the Palestinians are in. No, I’m sorry, but any sane person can see that the party with the greatest share of blame is the occupier and colonizer, not the occupied and colonized. You go on to say: “It is a shame that the hatred is directed at those who hold much less responsibility for their plight that they are willing to admit.” Who could possibly have more share of responsibility for the plight of the occupied than the occupier? Truly you are reaching.
Lastly, you say: “I feel for the ‘Palestinians’ as their own leaders have failed them.” Let’s be real. You don’t feel for any of them.
And by the way, people who use the word “Palestinians” in quotes are just as bad as those who use the word Holocaust in quotes. Same zany conspiracy theorist mentality.
Your next post will be about the topic at hand or it will be deleted.
Sincerely,
Danios.
September 14th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Dear OregonJake:
I apologize if I came across as harsh or rude in the above comment. But please do understand that we need to keep the discussion relevant to the article, otherwise it just degenerates into an all-out back-and-forth war.
You are more than welcome on the site; just please keep it relevant.
Sincerely,
Danios.
September 14th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Like father, like son. Pipes’ father, Richard Pipes, was a professor of Russian studies, but oddly had an extreme hatred for Russian culture and Russian people. Daniel Pipes, who was a failed academic, turned out the same way. He “studies” the middle east, but he has an extreme hatred for Arab culture and Arab people. I wonder where he learned it from.
And oregonjake, “Palestinian do not exist” is one of the most racist things I’ve ever heard and is only used by radical right-winger. From now on, I’m going to assume that that’s what you are.
There are loads of proof that there are Palestinians, with a unique culture, food, and language PRIOR to the Zionist conquest of Palestine.
1. Palestinians have their own dialect of Levant Arabic, which is different from the Lebanese, Syrians, etc.
2. Palestinians have unique culinary dishes which were later taken by Israel. To quote Israeli food critic Gil Hovav,
“Humous is Arabic. Falafel, our national dish, our national Israeli dish, is completely Arabic and this salad that we call an Israeli Salad, actually it’s an Arab salad, Palestinian salad. So, we sort of robbed them of everything…”
The food you see in Israel is mostly Palestinian food.
3. During the British Mandate, all people who lived in Palestine (that’s right, it was NOT a “land without a people for a people without a land”) were called Palestinians.
4. Palestinian nationalist movements started back in the late 19th century during the Ottoman Empire where the Palestinian natives wanted to create a democratic nation-state.
It is a serious mistake to think Palestinian was merely an invention to oppose Zionism. The Palestinian question has existed before Zionism took over the region. I can go on, but that’s enough since it is not relevant to the story.
September 14th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Thank you, James. To be clear, I was not actually conceding the point that the Palestinians didn’t identify themselves as that. I was merely saying that even if that was the case, so what?
Very nice post. I agree with you that it is incredibly racist to say that a people do not exist. Truly these people are on the side that will have egg on its face in fifty or hundred years. Just like today we shake our heads at the anti-Japanese hatemongers during World War II, our children or grandchildren will do the same thing when they read about these Islamophobes. They are quite simply on the wrong side of the fence. Those on the side of tolerance and diversity always win out in the end: it is simply the American way.
Sincerely,
Danios.
September 14th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Thank you.
It’s important to stress these points. Many Americans do not realize that the Israeli right-wing and the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza have very negative, racist attitudes against Palestinians. How can there be peace if there is a sizable portion of Israel that deny the very existence of the Palestinian people?
September 14th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
To be fair, there is a lot of racism on the other side of the fence as well. But we here at LoonWatch are allergic to all types of hate, and the issue here is not some moral equivalency but rather specifically about Daniel Pipes, who has self-nominated himself as the premiere Islamic scholar of the country. I certainly wouldn’t take my knowledge of Judaism and Jews from an Anti-Semitic Islamic extremist, so why are some Americans taking Daniel Pipes as a credible source?
Sincerely,
Danios.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
I agree that the comment from Mr Pipes was insensitive, defaming and mean, I must not have made that point clear in my original post. I again say that I find Mr Pipes views on a good number of subjects nothing more than rantings yet even the most vitriolic polemicist makes a valid point once in a while and occasionally one may agree with that point. I merely wanted to point out a few facts about Palestine because the box had been opened.
I’ll stay on point next time.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Of course. I didn’t mean to suggest that there wasn’t any other racism/discrimination. True bigotry is when people do not even realize it’s bigotry, but acceptable commentary. This is the way it was with the disgusting antisemitism in Europe where discrimination against Jews was considered justified and acceptable in newspapers and academic writings. It’s what we see today with Islam and Muslims. I am reminded by the blatantly racist book on Muslim immigration in Europe by Christopher Caldwell and how his book was favorably reviewed by the NY Times several times and praised for its arguments, many of which have been dispelled on this blog. We have to be careful when the bigotry is openly accepted without reservation.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
“I certainly wouldn’t take my knowledge of Judaism and Jews from an Anti-Semitic Islamic extremist, so why are some Americans taking Daniel Pipes as a credible source?”
But why do the people who run this blog think that Charles Johnson is a credible source?
September 15th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Thank you for another excellent post Danios. OregonJake, this is what I mean by deflection, you swerve off topic a lot in what seems to be an attempt to hijack the post and start a discussion on an unrelated issue. Danios addressed that pretty well.
This use of imperialistic language amongst neo-cons and Islamophobes is a trend in the whole discourse surrounding Islamophobia and you highlight it well in this post Danios. It is incredibly racist for Pipes to use such language, and I don’t believe it is unconscious, it is if anything deliberate. For this reason, you rightly point out that the only conclusion one can derive from this disgusting display is that Pipes is a failed academic and a discredited “expert” on Islam who should be cast into the dustbin.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:31 am
Thank God for people like Mr Pipes
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Can someone tell me why Daniel Pipes is able to teach at a University when he associates with extremists himself.
He claims to speak out against extremist Islam only, but then endorses Robert Spencer.
Why havn’t we organised a protest group, or written to Harvard to demand why he teaches there?
October 3rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Pipes never taught at Harvard, he got his PhD there because his dad is a professor in Cambridge. I found an old article by Christopher Hitchens of all people that picks apart Pipes, the moderators of this site may want to keep it on file for future reference: http://www.slate.com/id/2086844/
November 28th, 2009 at 6:20 am
” Your first argument is the played out and offensive Islamophobic argument that Palestinian people do not exist.”
That argument is a critique of an identity not claiming that all those people in gaza don’t exist.
“Do we then say that Pakistani people do not exist, or that there is no such thing as Pakistanis?”
Yeah because the term Pakistani has to do with nationality not ethnicity; there is no a Pakistani language for example.
“Obviously, the Pakistani people existed: they simply went by another name prior to 1947.”
No there was no such thing as a Pakistani prior to 1947, why? Because there is no Pakistani language or culture; the Pakistan movement’s goal was a home for muslims, not a home for Pakistanis.
“Denying the existence of the Palestinian people is exactly the same kind of thing as denying the Holocaust.”
Whoah, there’s a world of difference between criticizing an identity and denying genocide.
“And by the way, people who use the word “Palestinians” in quotes are just as bad as those who use the word Holocaust in quotes.”
Wrong, people use the word palestinians in quotes are merely expressing a critical viewpoint of an identity; that’s nowhere close to genocide denial.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Cassidy, you are a pro-Israel propagandist here to pretend that you’re against Islamophobes. Read Shlomo Sand’s “The Invention of the Jewish People”. You Zionists ignore your own history, but have the gall to peddle a Golda Meir LIE that the Palestinian identity does not exist? Sorry, but we will never accept the racist European colonial settlement in Palestine, no matter your token support for Muslims against anti-Muslim bigots.
November 28th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
“Cassidy, you are a pro-Israel propagandist here to pretend that you’re against Islamophobes.”
That makes about as much sense as Pipes claiming that tariq ramadan is a threat.
“Read Shlomo Sand’s “The Invention of the Jewish People”
You mean the book that Jeffrey Goldberg described as:
“Sand is not publishing this book at a dignified conference in Bern at which scholars of the Middle East debate the origins of the Jews … He is dropping manufactured facts into a world that in many cases is ready, willing, and happy to believe the absolute worst conspiracy theories about Jews and to use those conspiracy theories to justify physically hurting Jews. … It is nothing new … We [the Jews] survived … The Thirteenth Tribe; we can survive this.”
Sand also claims that there’s a conspiracy of ‘authorized historians’ conceal ‘historical truth’ something that sounds straight out of the protocols.
“You Zionists ignore your own history”
I’m not a zionist in fact I’m not even Jewish.
“but have the gall to peddle a Golda Meir LIE that the Palestinian identity does not exist?”
Oh there’s a palestinian identity I’m just pointing out that criticizing an identity is nowhere close to denying the holocaust.
“Sorry, but we will never accept the racist European colonial settlement in Palestine, no matter your token support for Muslims against anti-Muslim bigots.”
How bold, did you listen to RATM while typing that?
November 29th, 2009 at 3:23 am
Ikasu and Cassidy,
In a way, you’re both right and both wrong.
Ikasu, it’s TRUE that the Palestinian people did not exist, in the Ottoman emipre for example or event the Caliphats we did not have a Palestine.
It was a name created later. But that is irrelevant and your correct response shouldnt be to refer to Shand or anyone else, it is to retort
“so what if Palestinains didn’t exist then?” They do now, Even if you didn’t believe in the “Jewish people” the fact they say so now is reason enough,
Those who say Palestinians don’t exist have to explain why they Americans exist. Americans didn’t exist in the 1400′s so you could write a book called
“The invention of the American people”
the same with any country.
Traditionally right to land was by conquest, and the conquereor changed the names not only of peoples but of the land too.
Would you and Cassidy then agree that there is no such thing as a “saudi people?”
Saudi Arabian didn’t exist 2 centuries ago.
We can go on like this to the beginning of time and conclude that nobody existed and nobody has right to land.
Cassidy, even if you’re a Jewish Zionist, you cannot deny that the Jewish people did not exist until Joshua cleansed the land of Canaanites.
And you Ikasu, do you also reject the term American people? what about Pakistan?
Pakistan was created on the same basis that Israel was, there was no Pakistani people prior to Pakistan existing, now they have their own national language, and religion. That is exactly what the Zionists wanted.
You can’t discredit Zionism by saying “the investion of the Jewish people” Did Shlomo Sand question in his book, “the investion of the american people?” or the “investion of the Pakistan people?”
If he didn’t then he has no credibility.
November 29th, 2009 at 3:47 am
Ikasu,
“Cassidy, you are a pro-Israel propagandist here to pretend that you’re against Islamophobes. ”
You can be a Zionist and against Islamophobia. Not all Zionists are far right extremists.
“Sorry, but we will never accept the racist European colonial settlement in Palestine, no matter your token support for Muslims against anti-Muslim bigots.”
If Israel were racist, then why is 20$ of their population Arab? They would have expelled them all.
If you reject Israel as it being a settlement, then you must reject Pakistan as being a settlement too, and Saudi Arabia,
What about Kashmir? Do you agree with Kashmiri’s that Pakistan Kashmir is a settlement? Pakistan claims Kashmir, but Kashmiri’s reject both Indian and Pakistani control of the land.
Would you agree with the Kashmiri’s that Pakistan is a settlement and that it should return the land to them? What about the Pakistani genocide of Bangladeshi’s? Bangali’s then are right to insist that “pakistan never existed, and it’s a racist colonial settlement, created by the British)
I can apply the same principle for half a dozen other countries, that i’m sure you “accept”.
So when people reject Zionism on that basis it is dubious at best.
Wounded pride, and loss of honour (honest Muslims and Arabs admit it) is the real reason they reject Israel, (whilst accepting the same crimes they say deglitimises Zionists) and not the religious one they pretend. In their revisionism they forget that Jews are Book People and not Kufr as they like to say.
If rejecting secular Zionists on that basis is acceptable to them, then why did/do they accpet the secular Muslim countries? They should reject them too.
I am not saying that Palestinians are not suffering and that Israel’s occupation is justified. It’s not. Israel should do right by the Palestine diaspora (compensate or right of return)
I am merely showing how to suit politcal ends people manipulate the facts, and pretend they’re the sole victims whilst teh reality is much more complicated.
November 29th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
“Those who say Palestinians don’t exist have to explain why they Americans exist. Americans didn’t exist in the 1400’s so you could write a book called
“The invention of the American people”
There has never been a Palestinian state, there is no Palestinian language and much of what’s been passed off as Palestinian culture is not from palestine(their dance is actually Syrian) and the word Palestinian has been used to describe both Jews and Arabs. The term American pretty much refers to US citizens, it has to do with nationality not ethnicity.
“Would you and Cassidy then agree that there is no such thing as a “saudi people?”
Once again Saudi refers to a nationality and yes ‘saudis’ didn’t exist until the state of Saudi Arabia was formed.
“We can go on like this to the beginning of time and conclude that nobody existed”
Not necessarily take Irish people for example, clearly the Irish existed prior to the creation of the republic Ireland since there is an Irish language, an Irish culture etc. Let’s say that the Commanche tribe breaks away from the US and founds a Commanche state, clearly the Commanche people existed prior to that state because of the Commanche language, culture and history. Now pretend a group breaks away from the US and founds a state called the New Republic of Majeria (or something) clearly ‘majerian’ people didn’t exist prior to that state since there is no majerian culture of language.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Nonsense cassidy! That’s not a Syrian dance lol. Who are you to know? It’s a Palestinian dance. Palestinians have their own distinct culture with their own Palestinian dialect of Arabic. Do you know Arabic? Or did you just read a Zionist website saying that they don’t? The Palestinain dialect is different from the Syrian or Lebanese. Part of the ONGOING Nakba is to try to erase Palestinian culture in order to argue that it never existed for propaganda purposes. Not only did Israel destroy Palestinian towns (which mysteriously had Arabic names), but they would replace them with trees to pretend that they never existed (read Ilan Pappe’s work where he gives several examples). Israel also steals distinct Palestinian food, read Israeli food critic Gil Havov:
“Humous is Arabic. Falafel, our national dish, our national Israeli dish, is completely Arabic and this salad that we call an Israeli Salad, actually it’s an Arab salad, Palestinian salad. So, we sort of robbed them of everything…”
The bullshit that “Palestinians do not exist” is a Zionist favorite lie, created by terrorist PM Golda Meir. Master liars that they are, they will always fabricate to justify their aggression on the Palestinians.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“Nonsense cassidy! That’s not a Syrian dance lol. Who are you to know? It’s a Palestinian dance.”
The dance is called the Dabke which originated in levant and it’s widespread throughout Syria, Jordon, Lebanon etc. Thus it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s a palestinian dance.
“Do you know Arabic?”
No but I don’t need to know it, by that logic you need to be a Hebrew speaker before criticizing Zionism.
“Or did you just read a Zionist website saying that they don’t? The Palestinain dialect is different from the Syrian or Lebanese.”
So in other words you just admitted there isn’t even a palestinian language.
“Humous is Arabic. Falafel, our national dish, our national Israeli dish, is completely Arabic and this salad that we call an Israeli Salad, actually it’s an Arab salad, Palestinian salad. So, we sort of robbed them of everything…”
Humus and Falafel are widespread throughout the middle east so again not something that’s exclusive to Palestine.
“The bullshit that “Palestinians do not exist” is a Zionist favorite lie”
I prefer to avoid the words ‘Palestinians don’t exist’ but the truth is that the palestinian identity is complete (censored).
“Master liars that they are, they will always fabricate to justify their aggression on the Palestinians.”
I’m criticizing an identity not trying to justify anything I’ll leave that to my Mossad handler.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Cassidy,
Your Mossad handler won’t be too pleased to see you shooting your mouth here, and doing a Geert Wilders (he bragged about being a Mossad agent)
You need to understand something,
In a way, technicaly speaking when people say Palestinians didn’t/don’t exist, yes OK, it’ts true, it could be said they are a mix of Arab tribes, over the centuries some lived there, some moved there,
There is no need for you to come with a history of the struggle and how it came about and who is to blame, as this thread isn’t about the history of Palestine/Israel. This thread was about right wing extremist Zionists denying Palestinians an identity, though the world has accpeted a Palestine.
However that is irrelevant. Since the international community and the UN have agreed to bring about a 2 state solution, (that is official Israel policy too) and expect a Palestine to come into being we refer to the diaspora and those living in the occupied territories as Palestinians.
The technical details don’t matter, it doesn’t matter if it is an “ethnicity” or “nationality” they’re Palestnian.
A technical explanation is fine, but when people like Daniel Pipes who supports the right wing Zionist agenda of no 2 state solution say “Palestinians don’t exist” it means that they want the Palestinians to go, or for the 2 state solution to not happen, or a one state solution with no rights for Palestinians.
The more extreme far right Zionists (not all Israeli by the way) even call for the genocide of Palestinians.
That is why we object to denial of Palestinians.
and Yusuf, if you meet an extremist Zionist who says that you don’t exist, simply retort
“so what if Palestinians didn’t exist? They do now? Israeli’s didn’t exist until Joshua bin Nun’s genocide of the Canaanites”
Yusuf
Every dog has it’s day. Palestinians will get their state soon, and the Daniel Pipes of the world will have to admit that Palestinians “exist”
Cassidy, do i hear you cheer for Yusuf’s new state? you’d better be LOL
November 30th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
“The dance is called the Dabke which originated in levant and it’s widespread throughout Syria, Jordon, Lebanon etc. Thus it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s a palestinian dance.”
Oh, so now it’s a general Levantine dance, not specifically a Syrian one? It’s tough for you guys to keep your lies straight. Dabke originated in Palestine. Don’t forget great Palestinian music and dress which of course never existed either.
“No but I don’t need to know it, by that logic you need to be a Hebrew speaker before criticizing Zionism.”
Um, if you want to make a criticism of Hebrew, you better know Hebrew. If you want to criticize Palestinian Arabic, then you better know Palestinian Arabic. Who are you to say that Palestinian Arabic does not exist? It’s spoken by millions of Palestinians around the world, myself included.
Obviously, you don’t need to know Arabic or Hebrew to comment on the politics of the region. But don’t be upset when someone who is knowledgeable of the languages of the region challenges you.
“So in other words you just admitted there isn’t even a palestinian language.”
Do you want to argue linguistics now? Depending on who you talk to, it can be considered a language or a dialect. But it doesn’t matter. Palestinian Arabic is different from Lebanese Arabic, Egyptian Arabia, Syrian Arabic, Gulf Arabic, etc. That’s all that matters. I know classical, modern standard, Palestinian, Egyptian, Lebanese, and Syrian Arabic. They’re different. And that’s all that matters.
“I prefer to avoid the words ‘Palestinians don’t exist’ but the truth is that the palestinian identity is complete (censored).”
Says who? Your Zionist sources? Did the Palestinian villages, before they were massacred and destroyed (both physically and culturally) by Zionist terrorists, accidentally have Arabic names? Palestinian nationalism existed during the Ottoman Empire long before the Zionist conquering of Palestine. But that of course would require you to expand your education beyond what you read in Zionist propaganda sources.
January 31st, 2010 at 12:23 am
To equate the situation of Jews taking over the Land, and the Palestinians being ‘defeated’ to that of the Europeans/Americans taking over America and the First Nations people being defeated… is all fine on paper.
Now let’s look at it in reality.
If someone wants to get up in a huff over what’s happening in Israel and the Disputed Territorities – then perhaps such outraged people ought to check the “beam in their own eye” first? That is; if an American who is NOT First Nations has a house (built on stolen First Nations land) then perhaps they ought to give that house to the nearest Comanche, Apache, Iroquois, Crow, Lakota, Navaho… whatever… they see? THEN they can talk about what Israel’s Jews ought to be allowed to do.
Otherwise, it’s just stinking hypocrisy.
There is hardly a nation on this planet that is not founded in blood.
The only realities of history are Blood and Money.
The “Palestinians” were offered the best sections of the British Mandate of Palestine in 1947 under the UN partition plan. Most of what was apportioned to the Jews was already theirs because they PAID for it… or it was desert. If the Arabs back then had said “Yes”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
January 31st, 2010 at 1:55 am
Observer,
The analogy–between the Native Americans and European settlers on the one hand and the Palestinians and Zionists on the other–is an accurate one. Your argument, however, is invalid, because the two situations are in different stages of their progression. The European settlers successfully ethnically cleansed the Native Americans, whereas the Israelis are still in the process of doing that. The former is complete, whereas the latter is in progression still. The former cannot be reversed or stopped, whereas the latter can be halted. One took place, and the other is taking place.
If I as an American lived in the past when the Native Americans were in the process of being wiped out, I would definitely be vocal in my opposition to this. But now it is said and done.
“over what’s happening in Israel and the Disputed Territorities”
Why use the term “Disputed Territories”? The internationally accepted term–used by the UN, EU, the International Court of Justice, and the Red Cross–is the Occupied Territories.
“The “Palestinians” were offered”
Why use the Palestinians in quotes? You are just like those people who use the Holocaust in quotes. A loon. If people who deny the existence of the Holocaust are to be shunned from society, then how much worse are those who deny the very existence of a people?
“The ‘Palestinians’ were offered the best sections of the British Mandate of Palestine in 1947 under the UN partition plan.”
False.
“Most of what was apportioned to the Jews was already theirs because they PAID for it”
Completely false. The Jews owned less than 7% of the land in 1947, according to the UN. See:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html
The URL contains links to the official UN website.
“If the Arabs back then had said “Yes”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.”
False. As has been thoroughly documented, Zionist leaders only accepted the U.N. resolution as something tactical…They figured it was a way to steal half of Palestine, and then they could later fight for the other half. Today, we see how clear that is, with the continued rejection of the 1948 borders by Israel. In fact, they are not even agreeing to the 1967 borders!
As for the Palestinian rejection of the partition, they can hardly be faulted for that, considering that Jews–even after years of illegal immigration, terrorism, and intimidation–owned only 7% of the land.
Please keep posts on topic, or else they will be deleted.
Sincerely,
Danios.
January 31st, 2010 at 6:59 am
Another point is that vast majority of Native Americans (roughly 95%) were wiped out by epidemics of European diseases before they even so much as saw a white man. The Palestinians were not similarly vulnerable.
Interestingly, many of those epidemics were spread by pigs. I wonder if a similar holocaust happened in the ancient Middle East before the kingdom of Israel was established? It would explain the Judeo-Islamic rejection of pork…
January 31st, 2010 at 7:25 am
Danios, why didn’t the Arabs accept the UN partition plan? If the did, and the Zionists still attacked them, wouldn’t that make world opinion far less favourable to the Zionists (as they would clearly be the aggressors)?
February 1st, 2010 at 1:45 am
So, Danios… let me see if I understand your position correctly.
It’s all a matter of TIME makes right.
It’s okay to murder off millions of Native Americans and then steal their land… as long as people only worry about it 100 years later!
If this is not hypocrisy, what is!?
I use the term “Palestinian” in quotes because (again, for the benefit of those who seem to be ignorant of history) the word “Palestine” is an invention – there never was a Palestinian people.
On the other hand, given that most don’t know anything about the situation in Israel beyond the last soundbite of a weeping Arab woman from the West Bank – you’re probably unaware that until 1947 “Palestinian” was a euphemism for a JEW from the British Mandated territory.
Do your homework.
Lastly, I resent being referred to as a loon. I am far more informed about this matter than you could ever possibly be.
And you, sir, are most definitely a hypocrite! How dare you assert that mere TIME after an ethnic cleansing or extermination is the determinant of what constitutes a right of one people to land or not? In your twisted logic, Hitler’s attempted extermination of the Jews – and Germany’s profiting from all the wealth stolen from Jews under the Nazi occupation – becomes more “right” or “acceptable” with mere TIME!
Please inform our audience of how many years, EXACTLY, must transpire before a murder, genocide, extermination etc… become acceptable. Allow me to help you: BEYOND YOUR SHALLOW MEMORY.
Lastly, the Zionists can hardly be said to be ‘ethnically cleansing’ the land of Israel. 20% (and growing) of her citizens are full-rights Israeli citizens with a higher birthrate than the average Jewess.
Again – do your homework and check your facts before you bleat your anti-Zionist rhetoric.
February 26th, 2010 at 8:05 am
An excellent response by OBSERVER to the LUNATIC.COM set up.Palastinia was the name given by the Romans to the land of Israel.Hence the Jews are the real Palestinians.When the Muslims invaded in the 7th century,the converted most of the inhabitant to Islam,which included Syria as well where Aramaic is still spoken in certain areas which Christ spoke and not ARABIC.THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PLACE CALLED pALESTINE.These so called Palestinians ARE ARABS OF SYRIA AND JORDAN.THEY SHOULD BE SENT BACK THERE WHERE THEY CAME FROM FOR THE SAKE OF PEACE.
March 22nd, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Just like today we shake our heads at the anti-Japanese hatemongers during World War II, our children or grandchildren will do the same thing when they read about these Islamophobes. They are quite simply on the wrong side of the fence. Those on the side of tolerance and diversity always win out in the end: it is simply the American way………..
yes, but not the islamic way, eh danios? Have not the jews and christians for your friends. Strike off the heads of the unbelievers, and the tips of their fingertips. Death to the homos (dont have too much of a problem with that one myself, if they insist on ramming it down our throats). Death to the apostates. Jizzya from the unbelievers.
Tolerance from us to you, but not you to us.
March 23rd, 2010 at 5:17 pm
@Lou-n
“Have not the jews and christians for your friends.”
This has been explained many times over. It’s not that you can’t have friends that are Jews or Christians, it’s that you can’t make alliances with a Judeo-Christian alliance that is oppressing Muslims. Please look into these things Lou.
“Strike off the heads of the unbelievers, and the tips of their fingertips.”
Nonsense. Out of context verses and you know it.
“Death to the homos (dont have too much of a problem with that one myself, if they insist on ramming it down our throats).”
So Muslims are not the only people you hate Lou? LOL. What is the punishment for homosexuality in the Bible? If you want to have a discussion on homosexuality and Islam, we can do that, but be prepared to defend Christianity in this regard.
“Death to the apostates.”
Why do you keep repeating known lies, Lou? You know this has been debunked on this site. You refuse to accept that you’ve been fed anti-Muslim propaganda. Do you enjoy being manipulated?
See: http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/09/apostasy/
“Jizzya from the unbelievers.”
As opposed to perpetual servitude for the non-Christians?
July 8th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
quote:
the American Indians as a group of people have suffered and continues to suffer at the hands of an unjust civil and criminal system that began with Manifest Destiny and continues through today and are still a proud and strong people that are carrying on their traditions and culture with laughter and life. Despite concerted efforts by the colonizers and the US Government to eradicate all traces of the Indigenous population – we are still here.
Palestinians can also claim to be a “stalwart people” who refuse to disappear despite the concerted efforts of another form of Manifest Destiny, i.e. Eretz Israel or “Greater Israel.” The Palestinians can proudly proclaim: “we are still here.”
no they cant! the american indians retained great nobility in spite of their great suffering and that is what has allowed them to retain the admiration of many round the world.
the palestinians however hve “lost it” and descended to barbaric and cowardly tageting of civilians going about their daily lives. also their cowardly use of human shield makes them look very squalid.
worst of all though, is their poisoning of their childrens mind to hate israelis and lust for israels destruction.
of course any people in their situation has a right to feel betrayed [by their arab neighbours] and enraged at their dispossession. but sooner or later they are going to have to decide to live in peace with the israeli’s….the longer they leave it, the more they stand to lose in terms of land.
they are never going to kick the israelis out and if they get their big brothers in the arab world to fight their wars for them it will end with israel being made a wasteland and tehran mecca and medina being nuked into dust.
there no alternative. they are just going to have to come to terms with the fact with the fact that the only option is to live as peacefullt as possible side by side, a palestinian state with the state of israel next door.
July 8th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
as a resident of the uk, i’m not familiar with daniel pipes other than as a name i have come across in my reading about puritanical islam.
i have made a point of listening to a couple of clips of him on youtube, just to check out if he is a frothing-at-the-mouth hate filled loony. i dont find your character assassination of him holds any water at all.
watch the following clip and tell me that he’s saying anything at all that is intolerant or hateful. he is calmly and rationally making his points.
he isnt saying anything that isnt self evidently true. i can only assume that if his sincerley held views contradict yours, then you have to make him out to be a malignant xenophobe.
yes he is pro-israel, but that isnt a crime in all but the islamic countries.
many people on here have made the same point and i endorse it…..quit using tour hollow and predictable put downs and actually address the points he is making in the clip.
if you cannot plausibly and logically refute the points he is making or fail to even try, then you are just demonstrating that you are in a perpetual state of denial.
contrary to what you may think, i presume that a good percentage of non muslim visitors here are actually quite hopeful that you can allay their concerns, and disprove the more negative pronouncements of your supposed rogues at the top of the page…..but you arent going to win any hearts or minds if you cant convincingly address and refute what each author/speaker is saying in the various media they use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPYfGydqpZ4&feature=related