Top Menu

Gov. Rick Perry’s Friend Bryan Fischer Doubles Down, Demands Muslim Immigrants Convert to Christianity

(H/T: BA)

Fischer Doubles Down, Demands Muslim Immigrants Convert to Christianity

Early last year American Family Association spokesman Bryan Fischer posted a column arguing that a “sensible and sane immigration policy” would model “ancient Israel” and require every immigrant to “convert to Christianity.” Muslim immigrants in particular would be required to “drop his Islam and his Qur’an at Ellis Island.” But in what has becoming a frequent occurrence, Fischer later deleted both of the sentences, among other sentences, and altered the article to make it a tad less inflammatory.

But today on Focal Point, Fischer repeated his claim that Muslims should “convert to Christianity” in order to become American citizens, saying that immigrants must “got to embrace your God, they’ve got to embrace your faith.”

, , , , , , ,

  • Just Stopping By

    Géji says, (first quoting me): > “And, I thank you for teaching me that I should be careful about making claims about Islam” Oh God no, in my opinion, that’s not a good “teaching”, not at all, I did that?.

    So, you want me to make claims about Islam without being careful? 😉

    “so please by all mean, fell absolutely freeeee to report, jump in, and take part of the jungle-dispute of Muslims, we’re always looking for a calm, collected, exterior intermediary observer to knock some sense into us.” I doubt that most adherents of any religion are looking for an outsider to determine who is right in their internal disputes.

  • Géji

    Correction —- “we disrespect each other’s views and opinions as the adults we both are, to then move on to other things.”

    I meant, “we do not disrespect each other’s views……”

  • Géji

    > “No worries about friendship and respect, my friend. As I said, I recognize that your opinions are based on a respect for Judaism and not out of any malice. So, I will also always respect your opinions.”

    Thank-you, and as I’ve stated, likewise.

    > “And, I thank you for teaching me that I should be careful about making claims about Islam”

    Oh God no, in my opinion, that’s not a good “teaching”, not at all, I did that?. Cause I most definitely do not wish for you to ever fell restrain to bring-up and put-forth anything regarding Islam and Muslims, even the wacky, nutty stuffs, no problem akhi, I can’t speak for all Muslims as we are many voices each with his/her own head, some shouting, others talking, others not even aware of what’s going on even on their front-steps, others silent like lambs ect, just like any other community or nation, but from me there no objection at all. — As you may know already, there are lots of “claims” about Islam/Muslims circulating around, both from Muslims and Non-Muslims alike, regarding Islam and Muslims, some may be be false, while others may be true, and it’s always helpful to find-out about them, even more helpful sometimes will be an outsider who’s not part of the community, thus may have different and fresher perspective, to jump in and give his/her say and opinion, even when its to befit Muslims who’re busy pulling each-other’s hair about such and such “claims”, so please by all mean, fell absolutely freeeee to report, jump in, and take part of the jungle-dispute of Muslims, we’re always looking for a calm, collected, exterior intermediary observer to knock some sense into us.

    > “since it is clear that even one who respects another religion may just not understand it enough”

    lol, Just Stopping By, more than half the time, I don’t even seem to understand my own community, let alone other’s, each follow its own course, with many talk-heads, points, views, sayings, opinions, that just by listing them gives me headache, just go once to a Mosque, or a Muslim religious event, and you’ll know what I’m talking about. — As I’ve already said, nowadays there are so many different taking-points on religion, and specially with the extreme concepts of “liberalism” and “secularism”, where religion occupies second, if not 3rd or 4th place in most lives, we lost a lot on religious grounds, and many things that where initially non-religious and inconceivable just couple centuries ago, got creep into our concept of what religion represent, and who religious people supposed to be, especially for monotheism where there’s huge contact with such extreme “liberalism” and “secularism”, the damage and the crisis of religious identity is deeper, than those of other far-East religions.

  • Géji

    > “No offence taken”

    1)- From your post up-there, it seem you shouting your lungs-out, so I guess you did did get offended after all, so I’m sorry for that. But anyhoo.

    > “as I said above you apply your own understanding. I don’t do that. I don’t judge religions by what WE believe, what I said above is what THEY believe.”

    2)- It’s not “my own understanding”, but the standard’s understanding that Judaism is a religion, who’s sole existence, being, is based on God, the One God specifically, as same stand as Christianity and Islam are, and the people who specifically follow them are called, Jews, Christians and Muslims. Now if you you’re insisting on saying otherwise, then perhaps you must double-check “your own understanding and interpretation”, not that of the standard’s one. So I guess even though you’re entitled to your understandings and interpretations, its best to don’t try and make it as if it’s universally accepted, nor intimidate those of us who don’t follow “your interpretations” into accepting them, and we’ll do the same with you.

    > “Oh but it is your own interpretation. Otherwise why are you not accepting what someone said their beliefs are? You are telling Just Stopping By that you know better than their Rabbis how to interpret their texts. You cannot impose your own interpretation of another religion and tell those religion’s followers YOUR interpretation is the correct one.”

    3)- “Inspire”, so far I haven’t seen anything tangible or concrete coming from you, nor any solid poof in your attempt to object to my objection to terms such as “Jewish atheist” or “Jewish Buddhist”, not even a Bible verse, nothing, your own above links you posted supports what I’ve been saying all along. — Thus my dear, with all due respect, all I see from your posts regarding this subject, is babbles and rants, throw-in of empty words such as -“your own understanding” and “your own interpretation”-, blablabla, but you yourself proved unable to bring anything to support you, but nonsense. — And me dear, except you, no one here is trying to force, or intimidate, or is telling anyone what to believe or accept, no one talked about “rabbis”, or even mentioned any “text”, except you, so get a grip. —- The exchange between me and Just Stopping By, are based on exchanging our views and opinions, not “forcing” them on each-other, but free-willy-to-take or leave-them. — Much so far, me and him/her are doing just fine thank you very much, and do not need your off-beat chaperonage, I think he/she is old enough to read what I says, reply without ranting, I’m old enough to do the same, and though we may occasionally disagree or agree, we disrespect each other’s views and opinions as the adults we both are, to then move on to other things. So no-offence, but I’ll be grateful if you keep what appears to be rants and babbling with extremist views out of our discussion. Maybe you’re trying to intimidate people or something, but last I’ve checked, no one elected you from above and above all us to be the sole “interpreter” and “understander” of what Judaism and Jews both are, nor did no one elected you to be speaker for Jews and Judaism, in less I missed the election, in that case you wouldn’t get me vote. On my part, on matter of Judaism and Jews, I much rather consider that of the sayings and views of Just Stopping By who’s actually from the source, as he/she stated him/herself to be from Judaism confession, and thus is not only more qualified to speak for his/her faith and people, but is also much more interesting to debating and discussing those matters than you, I don’t have to consider your babbling as legit. I do not intend to be harsh or mean to you, and sorry, but you’re going way over-board while at the same time you have nothing to add to the discussion but nonsense. —- BTW, since you keep on insisting that my objection to concepts such as “Jewish atheists”/”Jewish Buddhists”, are based on “my own understanding”, I’ll love for you to bring the “right understanding” of Judaism on the subject, and where’s the best “understanding”, but the in Bible itself?. So, I’ll love for you to bring me the “text” or passage of the Bible that states- a)-it is perfectly OKEY and acceptable under the fold of Judaism for one to reject and deny God-(i.e., atheist), and b)- for one to accept polytheism of multiple gods-(i.e., Buddhist). I mean isn’t that what represent the- “Jewish” atheists and “Jewish” Buddhists and their oxymoronic-appellations?. — Beside when one non-Muslim keep on insisting on their “own interpretation”, you know that we Muslims have to bring the verse of Qur’an that will send them correctly. Few Rabbis statements approving such concepts won’t suffice Ms Inspire, cause I most certain will find like-wise few rabbis rejecting those concepts. I want the verse of the Bible that states such approval, or don’t bother wasting your’s and mine’s time.

    > “n both cases above, Atheist Jews, and Messianics, it is their own religious leaders who decide who their own are and what is acceptable to them.”

    4)- it’s utterly pathetic, and painful to watch, the ways you keep on constantly contradicting yourself, dear, remember when not that long ago you were huffing and puffing calling for an “international punishment” on Saudi people by prohibiting them to build Mosques to worship God?. Don’t you know that in Saudi-Arabia, which you yourself called “theocratic dictatorship”, the most opposition to build other houses of worship, come mostly from Saudi “religious leaders”?. —- So my question to you is, since there’s lots of Saudi religious leaders-(i.e., Imams and Sheikhs) objecting to the construction of synagogues and Churches in their country, and since there are also many non-Saudis religious leaders objecting to such as well, and which their main excuse and explanation for the objection, is – “Sheikhs/Imams-[knows]-how to interpret their texts”-(just as you stated for the “infallible” Rabbis) – and even though we all know there is no substantial support in Qur’an for their objection, but thus are mainly based on – “own understanding and interpretation”- of Islam, and so – “decide who their own are and what is acceptable to them” – so then why huff and buff about the objection of Saudi religious leaders to synagogues and Churches in Saudi-Arabia? since they are the main supporter of the interdict and since you seem supporting the “infallible” religious leaders? — If -(according to you)- we’re all expected to blindly follow and accept what each and every religious leader “interpret” then “decides” about their respective religion, without ever having a say, then most definitely such as objecting to synagogues and Churches must be a ‘valid’ point, and Jews and Christians cannot object, right? and in such case, neither are you Ms “Inspire”, cause remember its your own rule that we must not object to religious leaders, right?? oh God! you’re so easy dear. Anyhoo bye-bye

  • Just Stopping By

    @Géji: No worries about friendship and respect, my friend. As I said, I recognize that your opinions are based on a respect for Judaism and not out of any malice. So, I will also always respect your opinions.

    And, I thank you for teaching me that I should be careful about making claims about Islam, since it is clear that even one who respects another religion may just not understand it enough. 😉

    وعليكم السلام، أختي

  • Géji

    > “Jews have historically defined ourselves as a tribe, a nation, or a people, meaning that we accept outsiders who convert in but do not cut off those who stop believing. Atheists may not be following Judaism, but if previously Jewish, they can still be Jews. (Again, I admit that this may sound and be somewhat contradictory, but that’s the way it is.)”

    Just Stopping By, Salaam, peace be with. But yes I gotta say, I do not comprehend, and yes I find it to be profoundly contradictory. Although I know you don’t believe in Qur’an, but as example, Muslims too throughout the Qur’an are called a people, a nation, which makes them what we call the “Ummah”,(i.e., nation or people), and more specifically the “Ummah of Muhammad”, and I gotta double checked, but I’m pretty sure the Qur’an uses the same term for you-(i.e., Jews) as the Ummah of Musa). But in this context, the “nation” of particular people, are under particular message and messenger, and the ultimate law of the “nation” and the utmost reason why one is part in the first place, is their belief in God, the One God, irrespective of the “citizen”‘s color, creed, ethnic, background and so forth. And if a person decided to break the supremely ultimate law, where both the foundation and the roof of the nation are found and build, then most definitely, without but’s , why’s, no’s, how’s and where’s about it, automatically, he/she is kindly supposed to pack their bags and leave quietly the property, mostly no questions asked, and until they get their act straight, is out of the fold of the nation. — That’s why no matter what one says or will say, though of course I will respect their opinion, I cannot understand and accept that the tittles-(i.e., Muslim, Jew, Christian) exclusively and specifically giving to us precisely for our acceptance and believe in God, the One God, could ever be compatible with that of a tittle-(i.e., atheist) that’s sole existence is primarily there for the disbelief and rejection of God, or even gods. Thus, if you ever hear nonsense such as “Muslim atheist”-(cuckoo!), subscribe it under loonacy, mad, fake, corruption of the tittle “Muslim”. — I think most of us believers of the One God-(i.e., monotheists)- believe that the surviving and latest monotheistic messages, God’s 1.0- Judaism, God’s 2.0- Christianity, and God’s 3.0- Islam, are from the same source, with quasi similar boundaries and rules, so many it’s best for us to stick with them if we want to be seen as coherent, logical and consistent with our monotheistic messages, now of course, we’ll always have those in our respective ‘milieus’ who’ll try to change and distort things according to the selfish wishes and desires, but I think both the Bible and the Qur’an offers and provides more than enough tips and tactics to repudiate whatever strategies they’ll come up with. —- Anyhow Just Stopping By, as long as I’m here as poster, I will always regard and respect your sayings and opinions, no matter what, even though when it happens I may have to disagree with them, and I hope-(Insh-Allah) is the same for you regarding me. —-Salaamu-Aleikum.

  • HGG

    Thanks, JSB. I’m (lapsed) Catholic but leaning Agnostic, though. I’ll check that book.

  • Just Stopping By

    @HGG: “I’m sure there must be a few books you could recommend to me [about Judaism].” I actually don’t know of many intro books, but one I read and liked recently is An Introduction to Judaism for Muslims: http://books.google.com/books/about/Children_of_Abraham.html?id=9_sRAQAAIAAJ by Reuven Firestone. If you’re Muslim, it may be especially interesting in showing similarities and differences between the two religions; if you’re not, then you may learn a lot about one religion and some bits about another as well. (There are also two companion books on an Introduction to Islam for Jews that can be informative for both Jews or non-Jews.)

    @Inspired by Muhammad: You ask, “What about Chabadniks, todays ones I mean..?” Your quotes are, I believe, all correct, but also refer to what some regard as the formal legalism as opposed to current practice. The article you link to itself states, “As an act of leniency, however, few rabbis today ask the ex-Jew returning to Judaism to go through any ceremony of conversion. This might be a ‘stumbling block before the blind,’ before those who wish to return. So long as one remains a Christian, one is no longer a Jew. But if one wishes to return to Judaism, the return is made easy as an act of compassion. However, a return must be made, because the person left both Judaism and the Jewish People by converting to another faith.” With no actual ceremony, the “return” is often nothing more than showing up at a family dinner or at a synagogue and just participating.

    Ultimately, I should have been clearer and referred to some of the types of responsa you linked to, or at least to that line of thought. But, the current consensus has tended to be that no formal re-conversion is required and I was giving more of a discussion of practicalities than theory.

    For an a view closer to what I wrote earlier, see here:
    http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodoxfaqenkin/f/conver_o.htm: An Orthodox rabbi states, “According to Jewish law, a person is Jewish as long as he or she has been born to a Jewish woman. Indeed, this chain cannot be broken under any circumstances. For example, if your mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, etc, etc, were all Jewish, then you too are Jewish regardless of what you do now. There is no way to convert out of Judaism. A Jew who sins remains a Jew.”

  • Inspired by Mohammad

    Just Stopping By

    Not quite. First, whether one is considered an apostate may depend on the religion. There are lots of “Jewish Buddhists” for example that are still considered Jews by the community. For historical reasons, conversion to Christianity would be considered the most definitive break with Judaism, but not so much of a break that someone would need to convert to return to Judaism

    What about Chabadniks, todays ones I mean..?

    http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation9.html

    A Rabbi in the later Middle Ages named the Hai Gaon, as quoted by Aderet in Responsa, VII #292, stated that a Jew who converted out of the faith was no longer a Jew. This was shared by numerous rabbis, which can be seen in the Responsa literature of Simon ben Zemah of Duran, Samuel de Medina, Judah Berab, Jacob Berab, Moses ben Elias Kapsali, and others in the Middle Ages.

    More recently this can also be seen in the Responsa of the Satmar Rov in his Divrei Torah, Yoreh Deah #59, 5, as well as in the Responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Even Haezer Volume 4 Number 53.

    The very famous rabbi, Moses ben Maimon, called Maimonides, also wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew. See Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides’s Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.

    Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

  • Inspired by Mohammad

    Geji your post had a ‘Me Geji doth protest too much’ about it.

    or that sometime you conflate the objection to Zionist ideology and deeds with that of Jews and Judaism itself, and that sometimes you can even go to an extend against logic to defend whatever criticism one may have, even when it make sense to all, but me dear, I highly doubt that Jews themselves will approve of such behaviour,

    No offence taken, as I said above you apply your own understanding. I don’t do that. I don’t judge religions by what WE believe, what I said above is what THEY believe. Rabbis, have said what I said above, it’s not my own understanding. I don’t anyone would be offended by what their own religious teachers teach. It is not for you to tell Jews what Zionism is.

    I agree with you, that atheism and Judaism is not compatible from an Islamic point of view, but I wasn’t talking of YOUR or OUR understanding of it.

    It’s you Geji, that is insisting that it is your belief they should accept. I do not do that. You do that to Believing Atheist too. I think you do not realise that you do it.

    its not “my own interpretation” that said to be from the One God, its is not “my own interpretation” that Jews are followers of the religion of Judaism, and that that is precisely from the beginning, what made and gave them the distinguished and distinct tittle of one being “a Jew”.

    Oh but it is your own interpretation. Otherwise why are you not accepting what someone said their beliefs are? You are telling Just Stopping By that you know better than their Rabbis how to interpret their texts. You cannot impose your own interpretation of another religion and tell those religion’s followers YOUR interpretation is the correct one.

    as for what you said to Just Stopping By

    I remember you answering a particular post of Jack Cope, in relation to “Jew for Jesus”, and if I remember correctly you were objecting to such concept, and objecting to their identification of “Jew”, but yet dear, you seem to accept and be fine with so-called “Jew atheists” who

    Again you prove my point above. Jews for Jesus are Christians masquerading as Jews, according to what the Rabbis say. Not according to what Christians say. Just like Jews cannot tell Christians whom they should believe are Christians, so Christians cannot do that either.

    In both cases above, Atheist Jews, and Messianics, it is their own religious leaders who decide who their own are and what is acceptable to them.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Géji: I guess we’ll beat the dead horse just a little more, but I’ll try to make it fresh by jumping to your last bit on Jack Cope.

    Jack has at various times properly complained about non-Muslims defining or attempting to define Islam. I think the same applies here.

    Jews have historically defined ourselves as a tribe, a nation, or a people, meaning that we accept outsiders who convert in but do not cut off those who stop believing. Atheists may not be following Judaism, but if previously Jewish, they can still be Jews. (Again, I admit that this may sound and be somewhat contradictory, but that’s the way it is.)

    I object to “Jews for Jesus” because they are generally deceitfully claiming that they are following the Jewish religion. I remember one pamphlet of theirs that claimed that they were following Maimonides’ 13 articles of faith, though they put an asterisk on one and noted that it was not the original–they changed it to claim that God had a son. Since Maimonides was well aware of Christianity and rejected it and the concept of God having a son, I found it relatively deceitful to claim that they were in agreement with his views.

    Jewish atheists admit that they are not following historic or accepted Jewish religious belief and, as far as I know, don’t try to claim that prior Jewish writings were really meant to confirm atheism. (It’s hard to claim a hidden super-human message when you’re an atheist!) I might object to some of their proselytism, depending on how it is described, though in fact I haven’t actually seen any. As far as I know, Jewish atheists aren’t much into proselytism, and that prevents disharmony with the mainstream Jewish community.

    “And no, I don’t agree with your ‘family’ or ‘tribe’ analogy in Jewish context…” You may not, but we do. Surely you have heard of the Twelve Tribes. Even the word Jew is nothing more than a slight variation of the name of one of the tribes, Judah. (It’s clearer in Hebrew or Arabic.) And of course there has been some degree of bringing in others, but that does not change our image as a tribe. As for the degree of conversion into Judaism, once again, I find this to be an empirical question, and the DNA results say that there is a large degree of common ancestry among Jews. I try not to argue with science, and I can point out that you have never disagreed with those results.

    So, salaam, achti. I appreciate that your views come from a deep respect for Judaism, which is one reason we can disagree but still be friends. But, the fact is that your view of us just doesn’t match our view of ourselves. You just don’t understand the Jewish DNA. 😉

  • HGG

    “Second, even as a religion, Judaism requires its adherents to “struggle with God” and to challenge Him. Claiming that He does not exist is the ultimate challenge. Now, atheism has never been part of the religion, but since arguing that God does not exist is considered a valid intellectual exercise, one could always get away with saying that God’s existence is unproven and unprovable and those who believe are doing so based solely on faith (possibly cleverly avoiding saying whether you belong to the group that believes).

    Is it a bit self-contradictory? Yes and no, and that may be the best answer I can give.”

    I find what you wrote there incredibly interesting, JSB. Unfortunately, I’ve never had more than a passing familiarity with Judaism, and is the only Religion in the world I’d like to know more about. I’m not quite ready to convert just yet, but I’m sure there must be a few books you could recommend to me.

  • Géji

    Just Stopping By Says: “Yes, there is something we can call “Jewish atheism.” There are perhaps two interrelated reasons for this construct that has floated around for a while. First, Jews are a “people” and not just members of a religion. If someone in your family doesn’t agree with the general family philosophy (assuming that is meaningful), that doesn’t automatically make them non-family. Traditionally, Jewish atheists just said they were “nonreligious” and people looked the other way. More recently, Jewish atheism is more publicly accepted.”

    @Just Stopping By, asaalamu-Aleikum, peace be with. You know, I almost didn’t answer this post, not because I don’t like you, because of course I do, as I’ve said you’re one of my fave here at LW, but because we already had similar discussion not long ago, we both said our piece, agreed to disagree, to then move on. Thus, this particular “topic” of “Jewish atheism”-(deeply oxymoron)- is in context of the argument we already had, and its never a good idea to continue on beating an already dead horse. Now, historically speaking, Judaism was a system of belief in a deity, who’s sole raison d’être is God, the One God, and historically speaking, people who’d followed this particular system of belief, were called “the Jews”, precisely for their belief in such. Now, flawed later innovations, reinvents can be uttered all its wishes, but I or anyone else are free to reject as nonsense.

    Atheistic Jew oxymoron – July 28, 2011 by Sylvia Scheininger

    If these “Jewish” atheists (“Beyond Belief,” June 9) do not want to believe in God, that is their business. I maintain, however, that they should forfeit their right to call themselves Jews. Just because Mr. Levine is at home with Jewish culture does not make him a Jew.

    What makes a Jew a Jew is that he honor the covenant that Abraham made with God at the start of Jewish history. If a Jew does not believe there is a God his end of the contract is null and void, and so is his right to be called a Jew.

    If I have a franchise with McDonalds and sell sushi instead of hamburgers, they would pull their name and their logo immediately, and no court would say otherwise. These atheistic “Jews” should drop the name Jew from their so-called movement. It is misrepresentation.

    The problem is that they are proselytizing their atheistic “movement” and that makes them dangerous and destructive to Judaism. They seek to weaken it. They lend credence to the old Christian canard about “godless Jews.” Worst of all, they poison the minds of our young people with doubt. “Jews for atheism” is as much a dichotomy as “Jews for Jesus.” The two ideas are incompatible.

    Having said all of the above, I will say that there are times when everyone’s faith falters; times when we question, times when we are angry. Those are the times when Rabbi Nathan Lam’s words rise up with their layered meanings “…even if you don’t believe in God, act as if you do.”

    —————-

    BTW, Just Stopping By, I remember you answering a particular post of Jack Cope, in relation to “Jew for Jesus”, and if I remember correctly you were objecting to such concept, and objecting to their identification of “Jew”, but yet dear, you seem to accept and be fine with so-called “Jew atheists” who are completely rejection Judaism and its center- “God”, identifying themselves as “Jews”, why the contradiction? — And no, I don’t agree with your “family” or “tribe” analogy in Jewish context, just as when I did with you analogy to “native Indian”, Jews were people of many tribes and ethnics in the past, and not that of a single tribe, in less of course you mean by “tribe” or “family”, adherents being under the same roof of Judaism, and not for anything else, just as Muslims and Christians in such case, can also be described as single big tribe do to their common roof belief of Jesus being the Messiah.

  • Géji

    Inspired by Mohammad Says: “About your Jewish Atheists thing, Geji, is perhaps seeing this through our own interpretation. In Islam being an atheist or denying God means you are no longer Muslim. I do know that Ultra Orthodox Judaism too believe this.

    You know what my dear “Inspire”, with all due respect and though I mean no offense, I witness that you like to appear out-of-the-blue, sometimes even jumping-the-gun whenever anything relating to Jewish or Israel is pronounced by a LWatcher, or that sometime you conflate the objection to Zionist ideology and deeds with that of Jews and Judaism itself, and that sometimes you can even go to an extend against logic to defend whatever criticism one may have, even when it make sense to all, but me dear, I highly doubt that Jews themselves will approve of such behaviour, as I always thought of them as people with strong characters who never shy away from whatever criticism, and I think they always been a bit better at taking criticism than most Muslims or Christians do, oh sure, especially with the creation of the Jewish state, you’ll have some Jewish nuts who can’t smell any criticism, either of their religion and especially that of the ‘Jewish state’, but so are Muslim and Christian nuts who do the same with Islam and Christianity, and they’re definitely not worse than those who are blind to Western deep imperfections, and of course you must know our own fair share of Salafi and wahabbi literalist nut-cases, who literally believe Islam was revealed specifically to them above all others, and the rest of us Muslims are just quasi miscreant bunch only there for “distortion” of “pure Islam”. —- So again, with all due respect, I’m afraid that your whole post above, is one of those that doesn’t make sense to me. Its not “my own interpretation” that made Judaism a religion, its not “my own interpretation” that said to be from the One God, its is not “my own interpretation” that Jews are followers of the religion of Judaism, and that that is precisely from the beginning, what made and gave them the distinguished and distinct tittle of one being “a Jew”. None of those are “my own interpretations”. Judaism is system of belief, who’s whole existence and central tenant is God, more specifically the One God, at the heart and being of Judaism, there’s God, without God, Judaism is no more, period. What is the reason being of a Judaism or a Islam or a Christianity? well, is God. What will they become without God? well, they’ll become something already called- Atheism, period. Now, are you going to tell me, God and Atheism-(denial of Him) are compatible?

  • Just Stopping By

    “I’ve also read of a concept called Righteous Gentiles, or Righteous of the Nation or something along those lines. Also in Judaism there seems to be no punishment in the afterlife (Sheol) for disbelief in God, am I correct?” Yes to Righteous Gentiles or Righteous of the Nations, with either phrase meaning a non-Jew who is righteous and therefore has a share of the world to come. As for the afterlife, the general answer is that we don’t know enough to judge about it, allowing for different opinions on what it takes to be righteous or not (for those who want to judge anyway) or agnosticism (for those who don’t want to make such judgments).

    “They only stop being Jews if they convert to another religion, ie. follow another God. I know that converting to Christianity means they become apostates, and can only become Jewish again by converting to Judaism.” Not quite. First, whether one is considered an apostate may depend on the religion. There are lots of “Jewish Buddhists” for example that are still considered Jews by the community. For historical reasons, conversion to Christianity would be considered the most definitive break with Judaism, but not so much of a break that someone would need to convert to return to Judaism. Again, the tribe or family analogy is best: someone may have to marry into the family to become a member, and we may effectively consider someone “not family” if they are actively opposing us, but there is no need to remarry into a family if you want to reconcile.

  • Inspired by Mohammad

    and for the record, Believing Atheist,

    We have atheist allies here, like Sir David, I for one have no problem relating to atheists. Most of Europe are atheists, and it’s not a problem. They’re some of the greatest people you can know. Of course you have your extremists like Christopher Hitchens, but as I said above, you will always have extremists in every belief or ideaology.

    And I agree with others above that atheists and Muslims should have a permanent alliance, based on mutual respect for each others rights, not our belief or disbelief in God. We can agree to disagree with that, and that is not a problem for Muslims, (except the extremists, which all relgions have) because the Quran spells out clearly that religion is by choice, and that God alone will deal with the unbelievers in the next world, not us. It’s not for us to judge.

    Unless an atheist sees fit to take our faith from us, or impose their beliefs on others who do not want it, there is no reason to reject atheists.

  • Inspired by Mohammad

    Just Stopping By & Believing Atheist & Geji

    About your Jewish Atheists thing, Geji, is perhaps seeing this through our own interpretation. In Islam being an atheist or denying God means you are no longer Muslim. I do know that Ultra Orthodox Judaism too believe this. But..

    That is not the case in all sects of Judaism though. I know that the reform do have Jewish atheists or something, maybe even conservative Judaism too, but i’m not sure. This is not believed by the Ultra Orthodox though.

    Just Stopping By

    Are you a follower of Conservative Judaism? You’re obviously not Orthodox 🙂

    The words:
    ‘I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD’

    I think that precede the 10 commandments, is interpreted by some sects of Judaism, to mean that whether Jews like it or not, ie even if they deny God, they are still considered Jews, that is as long as they do not follow another religion. The reason being, it was God telling them, that God is their God, whether they like it or not. They only stop being Jews if they convert to another religion, ie. follow another God. I know that converting to Christianity means they become apostates, and can only become Jewish again by converting to Judaism.

    I think the general belief is that even atheist Jews are considered Jews unless they actively convert and follow another religion.

    Geji,

    Denying God means you’re no longer Muslim in Islam, but I wonder where the atheist Muslims who don’t openly say it stand? I’m inclined to say, that Muslims too probably informally follow that rule too, ie. Muslims who are suspected of being atheists, or who don’t believe in God, are probably tolerated as Muslims by their families as long as they don’t follow or convert to another religon. that is probably why Baathists are considred Muslims even though many openly show contempt for the faith. Certainly Saddam Hussein was considered by many to be a Non Muslim.

    and Geji, i’m not happy with your attacks on Believing Atheist. I think you are judging him by own standards. Let him be..he is an atheist, and even if he is a conditional supporter, he obvisoulsy sees some threat, and it is up to us to show him there is no threat that he fears (we will impose Islam on atheists or whatever) not to berate him for it.

    Even the unbelievers unbelief makes sense in Islam. I believe that the Quran is the only one of the Books of God, that explicitly states, that religion is by choice and should not be co-erced or forced.

  • Believing Atheist

    @Just Stopping By,

    HAHAHA. That post was really witty JSB. I enjoyed it.
    I especially like this line: “Will any rabbi (meaning any rabbi you find) convert you? Probably not.” So true, seems like a line from a Woody Allen movie.

    Just for the record so no one else is confused I am not planning on converting to any theistic religion. It was all just a hypothetical and for the sake of quenching my curiosity.

    I am also married and not to a Jewish woman. My wife would kill me if she saw this post.

    Wow many branches of Judaism are very tolerant and will accept me for denying the prophets!

    I’ve also read of a concept called Righteous Gentiles, or Righteous of the Nation or something along those lines. Also in Judaism there seems to be no punishment in the afterlife (Sheol) for disbelief in God, am I correct?

    As for your comment about David, I am pretty certain that the Psalms and other writings were written in Babylonian captivity and inserted a David character and other prophets/leaders after the fact. There is a good documentary on this by PBS.

    Also a good book (don’t worry it is not anti-semitic or bigoted but an academic book by Oxford University) which explains all the different hypothesis for the rise of Judaism. The different hypothesis start on P. 94 I believe.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=zFhvECwNQD0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Oxford+History+of+the+Biblical+World&ei=v-FhR-q_MJKIiQGU-eCIBw&sig=09eixie3bqkoalqx66xDGO9GBqI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    I respect your faith however and don’t wish to take that away. This is not a comment to propogate atheism.

    For the record the only thing not a hypothetical in my statement was that I like Jewish culture and life and let me extend that with Jewish aesthetics and qualify it with secular Jewish culture and life.

    Now it is time to go to a party and do some…unholy things. Until next time, Shalom friend.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Believing Atheist:

    Ahh, you have finally seen the light! Mazel tov! 😉 In answer to your conditions:
    1. If you had been born a Jew, then conversion would be unnecessary.
    2. You get a local anesthetic, but if you’re squeamish, you should probably find something to grip and close your eyes. (I’m assuming that you’re male…)
    3. Nu, neither do some rabbis, at least for Abraham and Moses (put them in the right order!) But, you’ll probably have to admit that the concepts of such leaders were around for some time, and that perhaps they were an amalgam of stories about various people. As for David, I think you’d be pushed to admit that there were Jewish kings and psalm writers, so why not name one David, even if he the stories about him are exaggerated? I think this would make the oral exam more exciting, but it shouldn’t be a real obstacle.
    4. Wonderful! (“If he converts, they must be planning to raise the children Jewish! That should make her parents happy.”)

    Will any rabbi (meaning any rabbi you find) convert you? Probably not.

    Will quite a few? If you agree with my comments on #2 and #3, yes, among the Reconstructionist, Reform, and Conservative branches. (Also, you don’t “convert to say Reform Judaism …”; you convert to Judaism and (not) attend a Reform temple.)

    As for that site, I understood what you were trying to show me. I think it would have been fine in a private message, but it didn’t work well in public.

  • Believing Atheist

    @Just Stopping By,

    Thank you very much for that information Just Stopping By and setting things straight. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell Geji.
    I was curious about something and want your knowledge. Let’s hypothetically say I wanted to convert to say Reform Judaism or any other liberal Jewish movement, but I have the following dilemmas:

    I was not born a Jew (from my mother’s side).
    Let’s hypothetically say I am not circumcised
    I don’t believe Moses, Abraham or David existed
    But nonetheless I like Jewish philosophy, Jewish culture and I love a Jewish woman and wish to get married.

    Will any Rabbi convert me to Judaism knowing all of this?

    Shalom good friend and thank you in advance.

    On a side note: I apologize for bring that site. I was trying to prove a point i.e., the intolerance of atheism and wanted peace between theists and militant atheists but should not have linked that site to prove this point. I should’ve considered your feelings and was insensitive. I am sorry.

    God (if he exists) I keep on messing up on LW.

Powered by Loon Watchers