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“Jewish” Pamela Geller’s “Christian” EDL ally rants about non-Christians being “pagans”

Robert Spencer – Kevin Carroll – Pamela Geller – Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – Stockholm August 2012

Original guest article by Jai

Readers will be aware that Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller’s main British allies are the English Defence League/British Freedom Party leadership. The EDL’s “second-in-command” is Kevin Carroll, who is also the BFP’s co-deputy leader. Along with EDL leader/BFP deputy leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka “Tommy Robinson”), Kevin Carroll was involved in hosting the anti-Muslim demonstration in Stockholm in August 2012 alongside Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, BFP leader Paul Weston, and European neo-Nazis.

Kevin Carroll at Pamela Geller’s “SION” anti-Muslim conference in New York

Along with Yaxley-Lennon, Kevin Carroll was also one of the main speakers at Geller’s anti-Muslim conference in New York on September 11th 2012, a fact that Geller has enthusiastically publicised on her “Atlas Shrugs” website. Other speakers included David Yerushalmi, who has represented Geller in various lawsuits. Kevin Carroll himself repeatedly made false claims about the current situation in the United Kingdom and continued his long-term behaviour pattern of hijacking Christianity. He previously attended Geller’s demonstration against the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque” in New York in September 2010.

Kevin Carroll’s views on non-Christians

Ironically, in December 2010, Kevin Carroll wrote a number of very revealing comments on Facebook which were posted online on his behalf by Yaxley-Lennon’s PA Hel Gower (multiple screenshots here). In these comments:

1. Kevin Carroll ranted about executing “traitors”, ie. opponents of the EDL.
2. Kevin Carroll continued by ranting about Britain being “a Christian country not a multicultural one”, and he also explicitly described Christianity as “the fundamental culture” of Britain.
3. Kevin Carroll is clearly (mis)using “multicultural” to mean “multireligious” (and similarly, misusing “culture” to mean “religion”).
4. Kevin Carroll ranted about Britain being a Christian country absolutely everywhere.
5. Kevin Carroll explicitly described non-Christians as “pagans”.
6. Kevin Carroll ranted that he will never “bend or bow” to such “pagans”.
7. Apart from confirming the EDL/BFP leadership’s fanatical religious supremacism, Kevin Carroll’s statements also:

a) Confirm their extreme bigotry towards non-Christians in general, not just Muslims, including the various non-Christian groups the EDL/BFP leadership are cynically trying to court as allies against Muslims;

and b) Most revealing of all, Kevin Carroll’s bigoted statements about “pagans” also expose the EDL/BFP leadership’s real attitudes towards their American Jewish allies Pamela Geller, David Yerushalmi, and Robert Spencer’s “boss” David Horowitz.

It is currently unclear whether Geller, Yerushalmi and Horowitz are aware of what their main British allies actually think of them, or whether they are so utterly lacking in self-respect that they are happy to be formally allied with individuals who are on record as explicitly stating how much they despise non-Christians and regard them as “pagans”.

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  • Géji

    JSB, its been repeatedly stated the majority of Muslims are pissed-of about the politically oriented Jews adhering to Zionism thieving Palestine and Palestinians, but I think most that those are good sense Muslims to know differentiating between what it means to be Jews followers of Judaism principals, and those shallowly using the religion to further their supremacy. Giving solely ‘Judaism’ talking point on the subject to the crises in the Middle-East is simple blind laziness, or bigoted Judeophobic oriented thinking.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Géji: “JSB, to your question, yes! I see the quotes as indicating an obvious bigotry that people should recognize.”

    Then, why are you accusing Danios of obvious bigotry? The second quote is in fact from Danios, with almost exactly the same changes you made:

    “Religious Zionism, not Judaism, is the problem. It is the mixing of the political ideology Zionism with Judaism that I criticize. I believe criticizing Judaism en toto would be Anti-Semitic.” http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/10/why-religious-zionism-not-judaism-is-the-problem/.

    I guess we both had the same idea of changing quotes in this manner!

    Now, to be clear, by your logic, that quote proves that Danios is an obvious anti-Semite. I disagree.

    @Garibaldi says that Pipes has made errors in Islamic theology. I can show where Danios has made errors in Jewish theology and where he has presented material in a biased fashion meant to push a political motive. In terms of their academic work, I could show a lot of overlap between Pipes’ and Danios’ statements, just with the terminology changed.

    However, and this is important, while Pipes has argued that all Muslims in US government positions should be subject to special scrutiny, I have never seen Danios making a similar statement about Jews.

  • Géji

    @JSB, “I agree that Pipes is bigoted, but tell me, do you see the following quotes as indicating an obvious bigotry that people should recognize? …..

    1 – “It’s a mistake to blame Islam, a religion 14 centuries old, for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam, a totalitarian ideology less than a century old. Militant Islam is the problem, but moderate Islam is the solution.”

    2 – “Militant Islamic nationalism, not Islam, is the problem. It is the mixing of the political ideology of militant Islamic nationalism with Islam that I criticize. I believe criticizing Islam en toto would be Islamophobic.” ”

    ——

    JSB, to your question, yes! I see the quotes as indicating an obvious bigotry that people should recognize.

    But, funny though isn’t? coming from a guy using, well, his own reflection mirrored….

    Picture this,

    – “It’s a mistake to blame [Judaism), a religion [30 centuries old?], for the evil that should be ascribed to militant [Judaism], a totalitarian ideology less than a century old. Militant [Judaism] is the problem, but moderate Judaism is the solution.” –

    – “Militant [Judaic] nationalism, not Judaism, is the problem. It is the mixing of the political ideology of militant [Judaic] nationalism with [Judaism] that I criticize. I believe criticizing [Judaism] en toto would be [‘anti-semitic’].”

    Now I you decide!

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    Why are people electing these old farts over and over again that oppose Obama’s plan to bring American troops back? Why do the Obama-haters here never ever criticize these old farts as opposed to criticizing Obama whose plans these old farts destroy.

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMJkYOgeXPY&w=420&h=315

  • Just Stopping By

    @Géji: “JSB, I agree Pipes bigoted rhetoric are more coherent, but disagree that they are less obviously bigoted.”

    I agree that Pipes is bigoted, but tell me, do you see the following quotes as indicating an obvious bigotry that people should recognize?

    “It’s a mistake to blame Islam, a religion 14 centuries old, for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam, a totalitarian ideology less than a century old. Militant Islam is the problem, but moderate Islam is the solution.”

    “Militant Islamic nationalism, not Islam, is the problem. It is the mixing of the political ideology of militant Islamic nationalism with Islam that I criticize. I believe criticizing Islam en toto would be Islamophobic.”

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    But now Géji and all the other Obama-haters; here is a question for you:

    How do you propose Obama would bring his troops back from Afghanistan if he were not to end the drama that started on 9-11-01 first?

    We have a saying in Urdu – jub ghee seedhi unglee say na niklay to unglee tairee kar kay nikalna parta hai – meaning that when you can’t get ghee (margarine) out of the can with a straight finger, you have to bend the finger to get it out.

    Obama in order to defeat the hawks in Congress that don’t let him close Gitmo or transfer its inmates to US soil or to bring the mastermind of 911 to US soil or do anything else he proposes to do – bent his finger to get the ghee out. He ended the OBL phantom on May 2011 as he did the phantom of Awlaki. If he wanted to stay in Afghanistan forever, he would keep the OBL phantom alive forever. That is what AIPAC and all its stooges (Lieberman et al) in Congress wanted and that is why the stooges don’t like Obama very much and call him a secret moooslim.

    Remember if Geller et al hates someone – he is your friend – a simple logic.

  • Géji

    @AJ, @JSB,

    I agree & disagree with both of you at some level.

    AJ, I agree that Pipes is an absolute bigot, but I disagree you took JSB’s post implied less, he simply stated that a person not familiar with the guy bigoted history, would see him more coherent in his bigotry than the more obvious rantish bigots such as Geller & Spencer.

    JSB, I agree Pipes bigoted rhetoric are more coherent, but disagree that they are less obviously bigoted.

  • http://Aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    Geji,

    “BUT, so are many, including myself, particularly since the shameful Obamer publicity stunt of May 2, 2011”

    Welcome to the club!

  • Géji

    @Ben says: “the comments on Daniel Pipes are particularly hypocritical coming from AJ, he has defended a Holocaust denier, here. Stepehen Parker.”

    Is this “Stepehen Parker” you mentioned, the LW poster Stephen G Parker? if yes, I have no recall of him posting as “Holocaust denier”. What I do recall is that he stated many time rejecting the “official” version of the American empire regarding Sept 11 2001. BUT, so are many, including myself, particularly since the shameful Obamer publicity stunt of May 2, 2011. Remember that date? well, always remember that date when discussing ‘9/11’! It proved to already many hugely skepticals that something big wasn’t quite right with empire’s “official” narrative on “9/11”, reinforcing further the quest for finding out the truth about that satanic date, where millions of souls are either put 6 feet under, dead, including the 3000 that perished in NY, while others are misplaced or missing. People around the world, including the American people, already woke-up to the extend of atrocities which this 21st century empire can gone mad. The rest of the world already did their part by putting the strangling noose around the empire’s neck, but I think ONLY the American people can finish it up, and sure we the rest of the world are eagerly awaiting for the American people to finish-up the job, only then will America be free at last, and join hand-in-hand as respectful equal with the rest of the world citizens in brotherhood.

    So maybe you mistook rejecting official “9/11”, with “Holocaust denier”. But from the way you’re caring your thoughts, I think you too may be some sort of “Holocaust denier”, particularly perhaps denying that of produced (but not yet admitted) by the American empire and their clueless terrorist, genocidal zionist cronies, hopping perhaps they can easily benefit collecting the crumbs falling from the empire’s cake for their wishful desire of supremacy in the Middle-East.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Garibaldi:

    Just to be clear, the reason that Pipes can get invited to various things is that the issues you bring up are not so prominent. Suppose that Geller wanted to get invited to a mainstream group. What would she point to as a credential? I don’t know of anything she has that doesn’t reek with bigotry. Spencer has some pseudo-scholarship, but it’s quite weak and obviously bigoted, so he also would have trouble. Pipes can present his own credentials in a way that they look solid on their face, and it is only when someone digs into it that they uncover the material you discuss. I trust you, for example, on Pipes’ errors in Islamic theology, but I don’t even know of them myself. In contrast, Spencer’s and Geller’s errors in that area just jump out from reviewing almost anything they have written.

  • Garibaldi

    @JSB,

    Thank you for answering my question about Pipes. He is definitely not as blatant in expressing his anti-Islam/Muslim views as Geller and Spencer which says more about how bigoted Geller and Spencer are than how careful Pipes is in my opinion. He has in the past been quite close to those two and the groups they are affiliated with though he has kept a lower profile these days. It wasn’t too long ago that Pipes described Spencer as a “serious scholar of Islam” saying he shares in the “same goals” as “anti-Islam” bloggers. Pipes was also raising funds for Geert Wilders, another dubious individual Pipes seems to admire.

    I can see how some American Jewish orgs. may invite him as the voice of the right or as a “scholar,” I understand he has a degree and spent time in Egypt but there is enough evidence to dispute his scholarly credentials based on his work and some serious mistakes he has made regarding Islamic theology. Pipes should be as marginal a figure as Geller and co. and as unwelcome.

  • http://Aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @Ben (or whatever your real name is who always has a difficult time referring to me as a “she”)

    Islam is the new and improved you. Embrace it. Step into the light. Step into the future.

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @JSB,

    Sorry, having too many blank brain moments. I took the first meaning.

  • Ben

    Just Stopping By, the comments on Daniel Pipes are particularly hypocritical coming from AJ, he has defended a Holocaust denier, here. Stepehen Parker. AJ should tell us why Christians and Jews should accept Islam which is a poor copy of Judaism and Christianity mixed up. Why doesn’t AJ tell us why Muslims don’t revert back to their true religion, Judaism.

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @JSB,

    Your DP “is not the type of clear bigot” can be taken both ways meaning he is not an absolute bigot OR that he is a hidden bigot. I took the second meaning.

  • Just Stopping By

    @AJ: Where did I say that Pipes is decent? I said that he “is not the type of clear bigot…” and that he “he seems like he would lead a thoughtful conversation. … if I didn’t know anything about him and just relied on the description, I would have assumed that it would be a tough but fair look at the issues. He doesn’t come across in that type of material as the type of person who would be so blatantly bigoted … ”

    Basically, I am saying that he is not an obvious (clear) bigot and SEEMS like he would have thoughtful comments, so much so that I WOULD HAVE believed that if I just relied on descriptions of his events that I have seen because he doesn’t COME ACROSS as bigoted in his promotional material. Reread what I wrote.

    Unlike a Spencer or a Geller, Pipes does not rant on about how all Muslims are evil. Instead, he couches his views in a more careful manner, saying that Islam can be fine, but that it is the interplay between political ambitions and religion that allows political leaders and advocates to bring out the harshest interpretations within Islam. That’s different than Spencer or Geller who adopt a more obvious “Islam is evil” in all its forms approach, making them clear bigots for anyone to see instantly.

    I think we would agree that anyone, even someone with a PhD in an Islamic field of study, who attacks a religion by claiming that it is only the interplay with politics that makes the religion a problem is generally just finding a clever way to hide their bigotry. And the more they obsess on discussing that one religion, or discussing it more harshly than they discuss other religions, the more their bigotry shows through.

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ
  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @JSB,

    “Pipes does have a PhD in Islamic history and, to the best of my knowledge, is not the type of clear bigot who thinks that one should use slurs negative inferences to characterize all members of a religion, nationality, or ethnic group.”

    The guy runs campus watch harassing anyone or everyone that dare criticize Israel, was mentioned in Breivik’s manifesto, contributes monetarily to Geert Wilders, writes non-stop about Obama being a Muslim and considers that a huge issue, attends conferences like thiswith the rest of the clan, writes books after books about “militant Islamism”, is a huge Israel Firster as are many of the other Islamophobes (and could care less about America) and I can go on forever and you think he is decent. He is a bigot just like anyone else but hides behind that degree you mentioned.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Garibaldi: As best as I can tell, Pipes is able to appear at events organized by local groups quite easily but does not get along with larger movements that know him.

    Pipes does have a PhD in Islamic history and, to the best of my knowledge, is not the type of clear bigot who thinks that one should use slurs negative inferences to characterize all members of a religion, nationality, or ethnic group. So, synagogues or local affiliates of larger groups get presented with an invitation to host a speaker who is academically qualified and who is on record saying that he distinguishes between violent and peaceful Muslims or between violent and peaceful Palestinians or Arabs, and he seems like he would lead a thoughtful conversation. I haven’t heard him speak at such an event, though I have seen an invitation and if I didn’t know anything about him and just relied on the description, I would have assumed that it would be a tough but fair look at the issues. He doesn’t come across in that type of material as the type of person who would be so blatantly bigoted as to say that it’s no surprise when a Muslim or a group of Muslims does something wrong, but rather as someone who would say that all groups have their good and bad characteristics.

    The larger groups are more careful in whom they invite and probably have steered away from him in recent years, though I wouldn’t be surprised if his claims of being moderate were enough to get him invited to essentially be the right-wing part of a panel or something similar.

  • Garibaldi

    Well, this thread has really developed in a nice, enlightening manner for the most part. AJ even wrote a blogpost out of it! 😀

    Count me in the chorus of those that found ZASher’s post very informative. The point regarding how fringe Pamela Geller’s views are amongst American Jews is an important one. It is one that we should highlight more often here on Loonwatch, in articles. The majority of American Jews do not buy into her crap.

    @JSB, found your statement about the co-development of Shariah and Halacha intriguing, it gave me an idea for an article, likely to go along with the series I plan to do on the various faith traditions and their views on pluralism, tolerance, living with the neighbor/stranger in a “Godly way” are the major, over-arching themes, juxtaposed to the haters who define themselves by what they are against. This will require a lot of study and time but thankfully there’s already a lot of ink that’s been spilled on the subject.

    On a related note, at one time Daniel Pipes seemed to be considered a part of the mainstream Jewish American establishment (though he was a hawkish neo-Con, a group I don’t believe most Jewish Americans support) having received the support of the AJC and others. How is he perceived these days? Has the rise of the Islamophobia Movement, in which he was entrenched (he has attempted to distance himself from the likes of Spencer, etc.) harmed his influence in these organizations?
    ===========

    @Bob, you wrote,
    So it’s not going to work just seizing on some Facebook comments by Carroll from 2010 and interpreting them to mean that the EDL leaders “despise non-Christians and regard them as ‘pagans.”

    I think you brought some interesting points up in general, but specifically dealing with Kevin Carroll, his lengthy disparaging comments about non-Christians are relevant and do expose his true attitude, much as Romney’s behind closed doors comments about 47% of Americans did.

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @JSB,

    “And, to you and all other Muslims, an Eid Mubarak!”

    Jazakallah Khairan!

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @JSB,

    I posted a response at:

    http://aayjay.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/islam-in-reference-to-judaism-and-christianity/

    Sorry for hijacking this thread. You may post a response here or there. Thanks.

  • Pingback: Islam in reference to Judaism and Christianity « Musings of a Muslim Pakistani American Mom in Riyadh()

  • Just Stopping By

    @AJ: Please put up a link once you have created your response.

    And, to you and all other Muslims, an Eid Mubarak!

  • http://aayjay.wordpress.com AJ

    @SB,

    Islam did develop from other Abrahamic religions.

    @JSB,

    If you don’t mind, I have an answer for you but I wanted to write an article regarding that for my blog as well so I will consolidate both and put it on my blog :)

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