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Eight examples of the ‘uncivilized savages’ Pamela Geller is talking about

Who are some of the “savages” Pamela Geller is talking about? Some are future scientists, inventors, ground breaking engineers and so many more.:

by Sami Kishawi (Six Minutes to Palestine)

A virulently Islamophobic advertisement campaign referring to Muslims as “savage” went live this week in ten New York City subway stations. The advertisements, created and funded by Pamela Geller’s American Freedom Defense Initiative, read, “In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat Jihad.”

These are the ‘uncivilized savages’ Geller is talking about.

1. Amr the “Spider Man”

When YouTube launched a competition calling on students from around the world to develop experiments to be tested in outer space, an 18-year-old from Alexandria, Egypt, submitted a project — and won. Amr Mohamed’s experiment: to investigate how zebra spiders, which normally jump on their prey, will adapt to zero gravity. His project was among the two chosen to be carried out live by astronauts aboard the International Space Station.

Amr’s motivation stems from his fascination with science, he says, and the fact that his country hasn’t contributed much to space exploration — something he hopes to change.

Amr, by the way, is Muslim. And he’s a future scientist. Savage, right? Instead of fumbling for an answer, watch Mission Control confirm the results of his experiment.

2. Human shields for Christmas

When Egypt’s majority Muslim population promised to protect the country’s threatened Christian community, that’s exactly what it did. Thousands of Muslims gathered last year to form human barriers around churches offering Coptic Christmas eve mass services all throughout the country just days after an extremist attack left 21 dead in a church in Alexandria.

We either live together, or die together,” chanted the crowds of Muslims. Some held candlelight vigils while others cheered their Christian compatriots on as they walked through the droves and into their churches.

Two weeks later, millions of Egyptians took to the streets in nonviolent protest against the Mubarak regime. Pshaw, how silly. A civilized people would know better than to mobilize for equal rights and economic reform. Watch Egypt’s Coptic Christians return the favor as regime-loyalists and rioting thugs pelt rocks at praying Muslims. (The men shouting in the end are repeating, “They’re praying! They’re praying!” not “Jihad! Jihad!” as Pamela & Co. would like you to believe.)

3. Mohammad’s very first response on 9/11

When the Twin Towers collapsed on that fateful day, Mohammad Salman Hamdani rushed to the scene and joined the team of first responders pulling people out of the rubble. He was a 23-year old Pakistani student researcher and an NYPD cadet. He never returned home.

Mohammad wasn’t the only Muslim first responder. Dr. Rudina Odeh-Ramadan, a clinical pharmacist at the prestigious Columbia University,made it to the scene as fast as she could. She found herself buried under the rubble twice as she pulled out bodies and treated fatigued firefighters. But she was booed (in a civilized manner, so it’s cool) when she revealed her Muslim identity at a community meeting in Lower Manhattan. And when the September 11th Memorial was revealed. Mohammad’s family couldn’t find Hamdani’s name where it should’ve been: among the first responders. Although Congress declared him a hero, he was listed in a far-off panel of individuals loosely connected to the day’s events. In fact, he had even been suspected of playing a role in the attacks.

He had dreams of becoming a doctor. His mother calls him “a prime example of what it is to be a human being. He went there to save humanity.”

Mohammad’s remains were found in the wreckage of the north tower in 34 separate pieces. There is no footage of him. So instead, watch these savage tears of uncivility build up in Representative Keith Ellison’s eyes as he salutes Mohammad’s ultimate sacrifice.

 

4. Refugees inventing for the blind

In 2010, three 14-year-old Muslim girls from a refugee camp in Palestine invented a revolutionary cane that earned them a place (and an award) at the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair in San Jose, California, a premier competition that features the top science projects from a field of over 6 million experiments.

It took Noor Al-Arada, Aseel Abul Lail, and Aseel Al-Shaar six months to develop their cane. “Stick-tech,” they called it, uses infrared signals to identify obstacles that trigger noises and vibrations to alert blind people. The American Federation of the Blind was stunned by the invention’s capacity to resolve fundamental design errors that cane manufacturers had been struggling with since the 1970s.

The three girls wasted many days crossing Israel’s civilized checkpoints to reach Ramallah for basic supplies that weren’t available in their refugee camp. Thank God they didn’t do a jihad and expect, oh I don’t know, an end to foreign military occupation. Watch them rise above the odds.

 

5. Interrupting the whispers of street crime

With gun violence on the rise in Chicago, Ameena Matthews’ work is more important than ever before. She’s an “interrupter“, working the streets with local anti-violence organizations to put an end to the rampant crime that plagues many of the city’s most disadvantaged neighborhoods. It’s an innovative (and very risky) strategy that involves, quite literally, knowing how to coax a teen out of shooting his way into prison.

There is just too much to be said about Ameena, who went through her own phase of gang activity up until her twenties when she chose not to wage war on her shooters. Guided by her Muslim principles, she has six children and finds strength with her husband, an Imam at a mosque on 75th. Her work was featured in a documentary film that swept the international movie scene and the Chicago Tribune named her Chicagoan of the Year in Film.

She’s braved countless near-death experiences interrupting the whispers that could lead to a case. If everyone were as uncivil and as savage as Geller thinks she is, the world would undoubtedly be a better place to live in. Watch Ameena tell it how it is.

6. The Einstein of Structural Engineering

Skyscrapers are designed to withstand seismic activity and powerful winds but it wasn’t until the early 1960s that a structural system was designed to keep buildings from falling over without caking them in layers of concrete. The tubular design, as it was later called, was the brainchild of Fazlur Rahman Khan, a Muslim from Bangladesh who used his Fulbright Scholarship money to study in the United States. In just three years, he had earned two Master’s degrees and a Ph.D. — a feat so great that it reeks of uncivilized savagery, okay?

What really draws attention to Fazlur is his innovation. Most high-rises built since the 1960s employ some variant of his concept, including the famed Petronas Towers in Malaysia, the Bank of China Tower in Hong Kong, and even the World Trade Center towers. He personally designed the Willis Tower (formerly the Sears Tower) and the John Hancock Center, two of the tallest buildings in the United States.

Imagine how awkward it would be to catch a member of the American Freedom Defense Initiative working in any of the tall buildings built in the last fifty years that bear a Muslim’s structural brilliance. And watch this preview of a video that airs in the Willis Tower’s Skydeck that credits Fazlur’s contributions and, by default, literally falls under Geller’s definition of creeping shariah.

Read the rest…

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    • syed ali

      didn’t my fellow Americans cheer on as Iranian men, women and children died on the Iranian Air Flight 655, because of an ” accident” confusing a Large civilian plane for a fighter jet

    • M

      Having watched some of her videos,I find her to be a very paranoid woman.

      I absolutely like neither islam, nor christianity. Read history, they are both equally distasteful. Both islam and christianity has justified almost all kinds of dredful things one can ever imagine.

      But:she talks about stopping sharia. The only way to do that is champion secularism. Now hows that going to work, when you support the likes of Palin? Im european, so with all the muslim immigration, I think islamic extremism is something for me to be concerned about.

      But if I where american Id be more worried about the evangelicals.

    • Christian-friend

      @Daria, have you meet a Muslim before? I bet you’ll say that no, because they are going to deceive you.

      I agree, there are a lot of Muslims fanatics and they should be stop at all cost. They need to stop their attacks and embrace change.

      But what I disagree is labeling all Muslims as savages and backwards. Why? I have meet many of them and what they want is want you want: normal lifes.

    • Daria

      just remind me, guys – did’nt people in Arab World celebrate 9/11 attack? never? idiotic exceptions, you said?

    • Kimberly

      Ever since the W. years fear has been used to manipulate the American people and the right wing Tea Party fanatics took that fear and ran with it. I find it incredibly hypocritical that these God fearing Christians who want Jesus in the White House are the most intolerant, mean spirited people on the planet. The only thing they are good at is striking that fear core in Americans and unfortunately, they are good at it. Stop spreading hate and cruelty in the name of Jesus or anyone for that matter, just please stop.

    • Gellerban

      @Arab Atheist

      Talking about savages; Since when is vocal ‘Jihad’ ‘Geller’ worse the physical Jihad (Islam)?

    • Arab Atheist

      The “savage” stereotype is not limited to Geller. It’s part of the whole right-wing mindset. Romney thinks Palestenians are suffering because they are culturally retarded. What he doesn’t know is that Palestinians are one of the most successfull displaced/monority groups in the middle east (and many Western countries as well). Almost every year including 2012, it is always Palestenian expats/refugees who rank top of their schools in neighbooring Arab countries. Gulf countries would rather hire a Palestinian than a local. Palestinians are stereotyped as educated businessmen in the Arab world. This is not a matter of racial superiority, of course, but these people were able to make the best out of their misfortune.

    • @Emperor

      Think how many of these smart, brave and noble people are having to suffer the consequences of being stereotyped as blood thirsty Savages by people like Geller and her ilk. It just goes to show how absurd any form of bigotry is, including bigotry against Muslims.

    • Nilufer R. Sage

      Daria – The majority are just people who are wishing to live…. Pamela throws just as many cheap moves PLUS a ton of fabricated stories to keep her money coming. If you wish to call the people in this article “Lucky Exceptions” than I can call those connected with terrorism and the stories you posted (with the exception of Asia Bibi herself, I know those who framed her will be punished) “Idiotic Exceptions”.

  • mindy1

    I remember hearing about that EMT guy :'( so sad. The others have contributed so much, I wish them the best in life

Sheila Musaji: Robert Spencer Discovers Halloween Jihad

Let the loony Islamophobic conspiracies about a war on Halloween begin. (h/t: CriticalDragon)

Robert Spencer discovers Halloween Jihad

by Sheila Musaji

Robert Spencer finds it noteworthy enough to note on Jihad Watch that Seattle elementary school bans Halloween costumes: they could offend students from “other cultures”.

He engages in his typical snarky innuendo:

Gee, I wonder which culture would have students in the Seattle elementary schools who would be offended by Halloween costumes. Still, there is no indication that any Islamic supremacist group demanded this ban; the school officials are just playing the dhimmi on their own initiative. Please write them, politely and respectfully, and ask them why American culture always takes a back seat to others, and why they’re pandering to an imaginary offense.

And, of course, his partner Pamela Geller also posted an article on this non-story, sayingDismantling America, piece by cultural piece, law by American law …… the parents ought to protest en masse – in costume.

The article Spencer and Geller refer to says only that a Seattle school has banned students from dressing up in costume for Halloween this year at school.  One district representative said that costumes “could offend and upset students who come from other cultures”.  The principal of the school said that “This decision was made by the entire staff after two deep and detailed discussions. The initial conversation was initiated by staff members who suggested that since Halloween falls this year on a half day of school, we not allow costumes. It takes students a while to change into their costumes, and students are distracted taking away from the already limited instructional time.

That’s it, the whole story that is known from this.  We don’t know whether or not any parent made any request or complaint to the district or to the school.  We don’t know what is the demographic of the community where this school is located.  Blaming this decision on some sort of Muslim plot, or a self-imposed fear of a possible Muslim reaction, to take away an American holiday is absolute nonsense.

To jump to the conclusion that Spencer does from this very limited information is a clear sign of his deeply held Islamophobia.  We know that Spencer is blaming Muslims for this school decision because he says the school officials are “playing dhimmi” on their own initiative.  Is it only some Muslims who don’t celebrate Halloween?

Here is a quote from one such “dhimmi” who refuses to participate in American culture:

“I think we ought to close Halloween down. Do you want your children to dress up as witches? The Druids used to dress up like this when they were doing human sacrifice…[The children] are acting out Satanic rituals and participating in it, and don’t even realize it.”Pat Robertson, “The 700 Club,” 1982-OCT-29

Robertson is not exactly known for his fondness for Islam or Muslims.  I wonder is Spencer will ask his followers to write letters to The 700 Club to complain about Robertson’s attempts to “dismantle America”.

If any parents did say something to the school or district administration, they might have been parents from just about any religious or cultural background.

Yes, there are some Muslims who are opposed to celebrating Halloween, for a variety of reasons.  The reasons given are pretty much identical with the reasons that many Christians and Jews are opposed to celebrating the holiday.  There is a wide range of opinion within all of these communities about the holiday, what it means, and why it should not be celebrated, or can be celebrated as simply a cultural event.

Read the rest…

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    • Aasim

      If Christians actually tried to make to replace all laws of America with laws of the bible and succeed and do to non Christians what Saudi Arabia does on non Muslims and Bhutan does on non Buddhists, people like Robert Spencer not care, instead I bet they will only care if Muslims (and only Muslims) even think of making America like Saudi Arabia, in fact if he had a kindly practicing Muslim neighbor (who is a America loving Republican and puts a flag on his lawn) with a wife who doesn’t work and wears a hijab willingly, a pre teen daughter who also wears a hijab willingly and follows her dad’s rules (including religious ones) and a teenage son who in a band and plays loudly and continuously and another neighbor who is not Muslim and he beats his wife, wants American to be a Christian country and on top of that is a proud Nazi who loves Hitler and want America to be like South Africa before 1994, which do you think he will be more uncomfortable with? That depends which neighbor is Muslim?

    • Aasim

      I bet if Robert Spencer found out about a school who bans Halloween costumes on behalf of Christians and Mexicans or non Muslims and non Middle Easterners then he will not say a single thing unless it also involves Muslims or people who come from a mainly Muslim ethnic group then he will try to single them out as the sole culprit.

  • AJ

    @mindy, thank you

Rabbi Jill Jacobs explains message behind New York subway ads

Rabbi Jill Jacobs explains message behind New York subway ads

Inae Oh of the Huffington Post interviews Rabbi Jill Jacobs, executive director of Rabbis for Human Rights-North America, which took out an advertisementurging New York subway users to “help stop bigotry against our Muslim neighbors”, in an effort to counter Pamela Geller’s notorious “savages” ad. Rabbi Jacobs explains:

“I was very concerned that people might think that these ads speak for the Jewish community, as Geller couches her anti-Muslim message in the language of supporting Israel. The suggestion that she is speaking only about terrorists, and not about Muslims in general, falls apart as soon as you read her writings, which are fear mongering about Muslims in the U.S. and in the world, and about Islam as a religion.”

She adds: “I want to spread the message that 1800 rabbis – along with the majority of the American Jewish community – believes in partnership with our Muslim neighbors. We, of course, oppose all acts of terrorism. We will not, however, allow the actions of a small minority to be an excuse for dehumanizing an entire people.”

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    • Nevermore

      @Bilal: If by ‘Muslims’ you mean ‘certain nations who happened to be Muslim,’ then yes, I agree. Even the fact that, probably, up until the 1600s-1700s, they were fairly similar in terms of economic development with their Western counterparts. However, economics (the development of mercantilism leading to capitalism), as well as their own natural abundance allowed them to slingshot ahead. Trade routes that nations like the Ottoman Empire once ruled became obsolete because no one wanted to pay their tariffs.

      As for Islam being perfected in Muhammad’s time, well, I’m a friend to Muslims (as an agnostic); otherwise, I wouldn’t be here. At the same time, though, I can’t say I honestly agree. But your point about learning more about Islam’s history is well met. Educating yourself is never a fool’s errand.

    • Garibaldi

      @Geji,

      What I was referring to specifically is there has not been enough discussion about Pamela Geller’s anti-Muslim fear-mongering in the media, and I am commending Rabbi Jill Jacobs for highlighting that. I don’t know why media outlets are excluding this bit when they cover Geller’s Ads, it makes me question if it’s lazy journalism or selective? I mean do they think it is too much editorializing for a report? I wouldn’t buy that argument.

      To Geller most Muslims if they aren’t terrorists, are potential terrorists, and therefore a threat and dangerous to society.

    • Géji

      Garibaldi,

      “This point has not been made enough during coverage of Geller’s hate ad campaign.”

      And so Geller could be able to ‘define’ what is terrorism? and who are this ‘terrorists’ we keep on ‘hearing’ about anyway? Anyhoo, I’ve expressed ‘definitions’ accuracy on this Site. Seems current outlook of, Terrorism ; Anti-semitism ; Jihadis ; Islamic-Terrorism, Islamist, and so on, really ‘defines’ all.

    • Bilal

      @nevermore , I suggest a bit of research into the history of Islam. The Muslims were the richest nations up to colonization and the reason they had no ‘reformation’ is because Islam was perfected the during the lifetime of Proohet Muhammed(PBUH) .

    • Nevermore

      @Stoned Gremlin: You’re right. I misspoke to an extent. What I meant was that both places are lacking when compared to Europe’s development.

      You’re certainly correct that some of the Caliphates throughout history were great powers; that is true. However, these are also pre-industrial societies. So far, in the industrial era and post-industrial era, both Africa and the Middle East have lost out while the places taken over by Europe (or have Europeans living in them for the most part) have triumphed. As for Africa: yes, again, compared to Europe, it does. The tsetse fly was a big factor in ensuring that native Africans could not build equivalent societies to their European counterparts (at least in the sub-Saharan parts) as did the general lack of staple food crops, though there were some exceptions like the yam. Not to mention: a lot of the empires in the north and in the west had impressive empires, for sure, but they did not effectively weed out tribal identities as what ultimately happened in Europe; this is a big problem when forming nation states. This general lack of organization into nation states is also what compounded problems for the areas that *do* have things available to them (like the area that’s the modern day Congo). The post in question was more a generalized look at the continent historically rather than specifically talking about religion.

      These places did have something in lieu of resources, both in the north and the west (even east, if we’re counting Ethiopia in): human capital. I suspect this has been a reason Islam has had trouble historically, as far as I know, with abolitionism. When you live in areas where there aren’t many things to own, how do you create symbols of status and wealth? Enslavement seems to have worked for most societies. The great historic empires of western Africa built most of their wealth through this, selling conquered tribes to Europeans. Of course, this was a problem not limited solely to Muslim Africans; no one seemed generally to be too picky about who got sold.

      You don’t have to tell me about the blight that is colonialism and imperialism. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, but I’m well aware. But Africa, prior to the 19th century, was simply viewed as a backwater. Much of the ‘Scramble for Africa’ was either vanity projects or attempting to secure trade routes (mostly in the U.K.’s case here). They were colonies/possessions for the sake of simply having them for many. You’re totally right that their literal/figurative rape did them no favors at all.

      As for oil: well, yes, they’ve got that. Right now, that’s all they might need. The thing is, though, that in the generally authoritarian/dictatorial atmosphere of the Middle East, this means little. Hardly any of the citizens see the wealth generated by the ‘black gold’ that’s underneath them. Whom ever’s in charge gets a cut, while the companies and various cronies each get a share. The astronomical unemployment rates of many of these countries is a testament to this. Again, maybe I could have explained myself better, but for a populace to become more liberal, it must also be better educated. The lack of money of these people (for schooling) simply compounds the unfortunate fact their leaders just don’t give a damn about them.

    • Stoned Gremlin

      @Nevermore I see a little flaw in your argument there. You’re telling me that AFRICA is lacking RESOURCES? Many countries under Muslim rule during the days of the Caliphate were major world players even in pre Islamic times such as Persia, Iraq, Egypt, India etc.

      One of the reasons why former commonwealth nations aren’t as wealthy as western nations is because their resources were exploited by colonial powers to develop the countries of the COLONIALS’ rather than to continue their own economic growth.

      You’re telling me that one of the problems the middle east faces is lack of money? The region most abundant in OIL?

    • Nevermore

      Islam will ‘reform’ (a very strange term indeed considering that there are liberal imams in the West just as much as there are liberal pastors, priests, rabbis, etc.) when the places that we associate with its fringe lunatics become richer. History has proven that time and again money brings liberalism. When those nations sort themselves out and are able to properly guide their own destinies, then you’ll see them start to look like the West’s religious figures.

      Christianity and Judaism (in the sense of ‘the West’) have the benefit of being centered in a part of a world rich in natural resources and the ability to hold large, urbanized populations. Islam typically has been in areas that are resource poor, like the Middle East and Africa. “It’s the economy, stupid!” is a much better explanation than “Those stupid, unwashed ‘Mooslims’ are so barbaric and primitive!”

      As for the article: I applaud Mizz Jacobs for taking a stand against Geller and her ilk. For a people that have known so much suffering throughout their history, it’s nice to know that some have chosen to dedicate themselves to not letting a similar fate befall anyone else.

    • AJ

      @Bill,

      “I ask the obvious questions”When will islam follow?–When will islam Reform itself?–When will islam stop with hate and hostility?–When will islam stop submission?–I’m sorry to see no light at the end of islam’s tunnel–Is there hope?”

      1) Islam is the leader.

      2) Islam = Reform

      3) Islam does not teach hate and hostility.

      4) Islam = Submission to God

      5) Stop being a pessimist. Get out of your mole hole and see the world. You will see the light.

      6) Yes, there is hope but first you have to Believe. I Believe and so I do have hope. You will to.

    • AJ

      I feel that the Jewish organizations that have been fighting Geller et al before her current ad campaign appeared have more validity than the ones that are countering her after the ad. Now it could be that Geller’s ad have become more vicious so these Jewish organizations have stepped in but there is also a chance that Geller has made a big mistake by involving the name of Israel in the current ad which would make Israel appear like a culprit in Islamophobia. These Jewish organizations need to step in to save their name. It could be either of the causes so I don’t fell very warm hearted about the Jews who got involved after this ad because I don’t know their motive.

    • dude

      @Bill

      sounds like Daniel Pipes who ignored the existence of Torah observant Jews back in 1980:

      http://www.danielpipes.org/160/the-jewish-muslim-connection-traditional-ways-of-life

      While most Jews cheerfully accept modern life, Muslims contest every concession to it. As a result, Judaism today appears in many ways more akin to Christianity than to Islam; and in many ways it is. Yet this is new. For many centuries, adherence to divine law made Judaism and Islam kindred spirits. Conceivably they could be so one day again; but that will happen only when Muslims too abandon the law.

      Until he realized more recently that if current tragic demographic trends continue, the Torah Jewish community will be the only one left standing within a generation:

      http://www.danielpipes.org/2370/the-future-of-judaism

      Should this trend continue, it is conceivable that the ratio will return to roughly where it was two centuries ago, with the Orthodox again constituting the great majority of Jews. Were that to happen, the non-Orthodox phenomenon could seem in retrospect merely an episode, an interesting, eventful, consequential, and yet doomed search for alternatives, suggesting that living by the law may be essential for maintaining a Jewish identity over the long term.

      By the transitive property of Pipes own logic, Muslims would be daft to abandon their Law.

    • Just Stopping By

      @Bill:

      “I too think that the Rav here is going in the right direction–Take notice that she is a female Rabbi from either the Reform or Conservative sides of Judaism which aren’t as misogynistic as the Orthodox Jews.”

      Yes, those misogynistic denominations that ordain women as rabbis, hating them so much as to give them a position as the leader of their congregation. The only thing more amusing in that sentence was when you called her “the Rav”, since that sounds really masculine, as opposed to the generally (though not universally) preferred term of Rabbah for a female rabbi.

      As for Islam, your claim that Islam is essentially hate and hostility is similarly problematic, as it similarly attributes the worst attributes of a few to an overall religion or denomination. I don’t think the rabbah, whose ads say, “help stop bigotry against our Muslim neighbors,” would approve.

    • Franczeska

      Nice series of loaded questions, Billy Rojas.

    • Bill

      I too think that the Rav here is going in the right direction–Take notice that she is a female Rabbi from either the Reform or Conservative sides of Judaism which aren’t as misogynistic as the Orthodox Jews–You see folks Judaism has gone through a sort of Reformation to bring itself into the modern world–I ask the obvious questions”When will islam follow?–When will islam Reform itself?–When will islam stop with hate and hostility?–When will islam stop submission?–I’m sorry to see no light at the end of islam’s tunnel–Is there hope?

    • Ansar

      Great post Jai, it is only if the real meaning of Jihad is explained by a non-Muslim will it be understood and people may pay attention. It has been correctly explained as in internal struggle in all aspects of one’s life; to the point when a smoker wants to quit, he/she is doing jihad against its own desire. And I want to thank the good Rabbi for such an understanding gesture, we need more people from all religions to start thinking this way, after all it is the second largest religion of the world and majority are good law abiding and tolerant. Regards

    • Jai

      I recently made the following point at the end of a Loonwatch comments thread about Robert Spencer, but as that article is no longer on the front page, I’ll repeat my statements here:

      Sheila Musaji’s new article is definitely worth reading in full: http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/afdi-sioa-roll-out-another-anti-muslim-ad/0019401

      Not only does Pamela Geller plan at least 9 more anti-Muslim ads, but (no doubt in response to the escalating backlash) Robert Spencer himself has disingenuously started trying to publicly distance himself from the ad campaign.

      Furthermore, as Sheila Musaji’s article documents, it turns out that Robert Spencer is on record as publicly admitting that the word “jihad” certainly doesn’t necessarily mean anything negative, including “violence” or even “holy war”. Sheila’s article includes the URL link to Spencer’s own recent JihadWatch article on the subject: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/10/islamic-supremacist-writer-discovers-that-jihad-is-sometimes-connected-to-terrorism.html

      Quote from Spencer’s JihadWatch article:

      Robert Spencer: “This page [explaining Spencer’s decision for choosing the name “Jihad Watch”] has been linked to the front page of the Jihad Watch website since October 2003, and all that time it has said this: “Jihad (Arabic for ‘struggle’) is a central duty of every Muslim. Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: [for example] the struggle within the soul…..I discuss the various meanings of jihad, including that of spiritual struggle, in my 2003 book Onward Muslim Soldiers and many times elsewhere. On hundreds of radio shows over the years I have explained, as part of my basic explanation of the word, that “jihad” in Arabic has as many connotations and shades of meaning as “struggle” does in English — as I explained in this 2008 interview: “The word means ‘struggle,’ and has as many connotations as the English word ‘struggle’ does. The Islamic Republic of Iran has a Department of Agricultural Jihad, which has to do with the struggle to increase crop yields.””

      It proves that Robert Spencer & Pamela Geller are perfectly aware that they’re deliberately promoting misinformation about Islam & Muslims during their continuing anti-Muslim propaganda campaign, including the current ads in New York.

      Some enterprising organisation should simply create posters quoting Spencer’s statement above and display them right next to Geller’s ads in NY.

    • Garibaldi

      Happy to see Rabbi Jacobs speak out on why she put up the counter ads. I think the points she makes here is crucial,

      “The suggestion that she is speaking only about terrorists, and not about Muslims in general, falls apart as soon as you read her writings, which are fear mongering about Muslims in the U.S. and in the world, and about Islam as a religion.”

      This point has not been made enough during coverage of Geller’s hate ad campaign.

    • Just Stopping By

      I agree with mindy1 and with Rabbi Jacobs.

      (Note that if you donate to that particular fund, “campaigns against torture, slavery/human trafficking and Islamophobia in North America,” it looks like, at least on my browser, that the choice doesn’t show clearly on the webpage donation form, but it came through on the confirmation email.)

  • mindy1

    OMG way to represent the tribe ma’am. Thanks for being open minded

[Open Thread Sunday] Robert Spencer’s White Nationalist Colors

Robert Spencer and his biggest fan: Anders Behring Breivik

Robert Spencer and his biggest fan: Anders Behring Breivik

This story comes to us via. Critical Dragon. It is an older story, originally published by the SPLC in November of last year. It is quite astonishing as it clearly proves Robert Spencer‘s links to and parroting of the White Nationalist line. This further adds to the nexus between Western cultural and racist supremacists and Islamophobia.

This piece of Spencer’s worldview seems to be largely overlooked by many when discussing his hate activism.

by Leah Nelson, SPLC

Proving yet again that nothing is beneath him, anti-Muslim propagandist Robert Spencer has put himself firmly in the camp of open white nationalists with an article published yesterday in Crisis magazine, a conservative Catholic publication. Replete with fawning references to the superior accomplishments of Western culture and the Catholic Church, the piece, titled “Is Multiculturalism Evil?,” proposes that Western civilization is superior to all others and that multiculturalists (aligned with “Islamic supremacists”) are colluding to bring it to its knees.

This is nearly the identical view forwarded by Anders Behring Breivik to justify his terrorist attacks in Norway. According to the Breivik and Spencer’s of the world there is a leftist-Muslim conspiracy that is attempting to destroy the West through the “cult of Multiculturalism.”

Spencer’s links to, associations with and citing of White nationalists, individuals associated with Holocaust denying publications, websites that positively review movies that are wildly popular with neo-Confederates and more gets a thorough treatment by Leah Nelson of the SPLC:

Spencer’s piece is punctuated with a recommended reading list that might have been taken from the bookshelf of John Tanton, the racist architect of the modern nativist movement. Of the five tracts he suggests, four were written and/or published by anti-immigration extremists. They include On the Immorality of Illegal Immigration by retired priest and longtime Tanton ally Patrick Bascio; The Immigration Mystique by Chilton Williamson, who is a frequent contributor to the white nationalist website VDARE; Anthony M. Esolen’s The Politically Incorrect Guide to Western Civilization, which was published by the white nationalist Regnery Press; and Jean Raspail’s 1973 Camp of the Saints, a racist fantasy about an invasion of France and the white Western world by a fleet of starving, dark-skinned refugees that was most recently republished by Tanton’s Social Contract Press.

(Interestingly, Crisis claims that Bascio’s book was put out by “Authorhouse,” of Bloomington, Ind. In fact, its first publisher was American Free Press, a hate group founded by Holocaust denier Willis Carto that also publishes an anti-Semitic and conspiracy-minded weekly.)

Given its recommended reading list, is should be no surprise that Spencer’s answer to the question “Is Multiculturalism Evil” is a resounding yes. Tipping his cap to his Catholic publisher, he denounces multiculturalism as a “heresy” intent on “[d]enigrating and ultimately destroying the Judeo-Christian West, not stamping out some putative racist devaluation of other cultures.”

“Today, no one questions the idea that one culture is as good as another,” he writes in shocked tones. “No one even whispers the possibility that the achievements of one group in a given area (for instance, medieval Christians) might actually surpass those of another group. No one even dares to think that there might be better indicators of the quality of an endeavor than the number of different ethnicities of the people involved.”

“Multiculturalism in reality is an anti-Christian, anti-Catholic, anti-Western exercise in moral and cultural Relativism. … A true multiculturalist hates all forms of Christianity and Judeo-Christian civilization, but retains particular contempt and bile for manifestations of Catholic piety and culture.”

In one particularly hypocritical section, Spencer complains that “European multiculturalists, working willingly in tandem with Islamic supremacists” are trying to enforce the Islamic prohibition against insulting Mohammad by extending anti-hate speech laws to Muslims, while ignoring insults to “the dominant Judeo-Christian culture.”

It is true, as Spencer says, that free speech is valued in the West – but unlike America, many European countries have laws against hate speech, and Spencer’s suggestion that they privilege Muslims is patently absurd. In 2005, for example, the Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard drew a set of offensive caricatures of Mohammed whose publication in European periodicals led to a violent reaction among some hard-line Muslims, including two attempts on Westergaard’s life. The cartoonist wasn’t prosecuted for hate speech against Muslims. Rather, he was placed under permanent police protection. On the other hand, in the same year, authorities in Austria arrested British national David Irving for denying the Holocaust. He was convicted and jailed in early 2006.

Spencer further complains about supposed “double standards” in academia, which he claims is controlled by multiculturalists who hate the West. Inconveniently, Anthony Esolen – whose Politically Incorrect Guide to Western Civilization is on Spencer’s recommended reading list – is currently employed as a professor at Providence College.

Despite his bile, it’s no surprise that Crisis should find Spencer appealing. While claiming that it “explores and articulates the subjects of politics, business, culture, faith, and family life from a Catholic perspective,” the magazine – like Patrick Buchanan, a famous Catholic who has recently written several articles for Crisis – obviously has no interest in the church’s pro-immigration stance. Its interim editor, John Zmirak, has contributed numerous articles to VDARE (which, oddly, has also published anti-Catholic screeds – including a recent attack on the church’s embrace of immigrants). Zmirak has also written for David Horowitz’s conservative and anti-Muslim FrontPageMagazine, to which his contributions include a highly positive review of “Gods and Generals,” a 2003 Civil War drama that minimized the role of slavery and was wildly popular in neo-Confederate circles.

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    • George Carty

      Sure Breivik was a Zionist, but he was also clearly animated by a desire to defend whites against growing non-white populations (especially Muslim populations).

      Breivik hated most diaspora Jews for supporting multiculturalism, while loving Israeli Jews as comrades-in-arms against the Muslim Hordes (TM). As Christians United for Israel shows, you don’t have to like Jews to be a Zionist.

    • George Carty

      Breivik argued in his manifesto that the world’s population should be roughly halved to about 3 billion, but he also condemned feminism in Western countries on the grounds that it has caused a worrying reduction in white European birth rates.

      Only a white nationalist would hold both those viewpoints simultaneously.

      I guess you are confused by the fact that Breivik condemns Hitler’s Nazis, but it is really the pro-Hitler white nationalists who are illogical given that the vast majority of the deaths in World War II (or at least its European theatre) were white. Hitler was not a white supremacist but a German supremacist.

    • Jai

      Ilisha,

      ”First, let me say I really appreciate your contributions here. Even if I’ve never expressly said that before (and I think maybe I have?), I’ve thought it many times.”

      Thank you once again for your extremely kind words. And yes, I do recall you recently mentioning that on another thread.

      “Of course, those who like to write also have the guest post avenue–you’re welcome to contribute articles via email as well, if you’d like.”

      Thank you very much. I’ll certainly email you draft articles if anything else comes to mind.

      ”As soon as practical, I’ll draft one of your suggested posts for the admin to review.”

      That sounds perfectly fine. Please do feel free to use the material I’ve supplied above, especially the list about Robert Spencer. I do of course agree that it would be prudent to clear it with the admin first.

    • Awesome

      I understand, you are completely right, 9/11 only happened in the mind of Spencer, like Toulouse, like Madrid, like Mumbai, like London, like the Taliban, like Nigeria, Like Egypt, Like Syria, like Sudan, like Liege,like Jemen, like Eritrea, like Somalia, like Pakistan, like Iran, like Iraq, like Mali, like Hamas, like Hezbollah, Like Bali, what a fool I am, I should have known better, I am terrible sorry about my misunderstanding of Islam.

      In fact you still do not understand, because “9/11, like Toulouse, like Madrid, like Mumbai, like London, like the Taliban, like Nigeria, Like Egypt, Like Syria, like Sudan, like Liege,like Yemen, like Eritrea, like Somalia, like Pakistan, like Iran, like Iraq, like Mali, like Hamas, like Hezbollah, like Bali”, etc. are all part of the real world.

      The only thing that is coming from Spencer’s mind is the anti-Islam rhetoric that he goes out of his way to shamelessly plug into his inane commentary on such things. Anyone who seriously believes that anything and everything negative involving any Muslim in the world always has something to do with Islam, is a person who lacks common sense and rationality. It should be common sense to any rational adult that people don’t work that way and neither does the world.

      In reality, the world and how it works is far too complicated for your simple, small-minded ideas of it to possibly be true. This is especially true, when all you rely on for information are sensationalized police blotter websites of Muslim criminal activity worldwide, and only because they tell you what you want to hear. You want to hear negative things about Islam and Muslims, and actively seek them out, because you want what you chose to believe about Islam and Muslims to be verified as true so that you can feel vindicated about it. However, what you choose to believe is not necessarily going to be true.

      How much self-deception can you swallow?

      That is a question you should ask yourself, since you seem to be swallowing quite a lot of it.

    • Thinker

      Life is quest for truth, peace, love, harmony and freedom. If you find truth, you will also find peace, love, harmony and freedom.

      If you do not experience these things, you will have to look and maybe be willing to turn around. Do not travel in the dark, you do need – the light -. Let There Be Light.

    • Sarah Brown

      @thinker – I always think it’s meaningless to deny any form of bigotry, racism etc. But in response to your implication that people here, who disagree with you, hate Jews I’ll invoke simply the objective fact that I have been an occasional poster on a site in the UK dedicated to opposing antisemitism and regularly write elsewhere on this topic (and on anti-Muslim bigotry, homophobia, etc). I suspect I have different views from most here on the intersection between antisemitism and antizionism but to imply this is a site where people ‘hate Jews’ is quite unfair.

    • Jai

      Ilisha,

      No problem at all — and thank you for your kind words about my comment. I look forward to a proper response from you when it’s more convenient.

    • Jai

      Ilisha,

      Any thoughts on my last comment above ?

Eric Allen Bell: JihadWatch Zombie Still Obsessed with Obliterating Mecca

The increasingly unstable Eric Allen Bell (aka Eric Edborg) isn’t backing down from his calls to destroy Mecca. His genocidal predilections are endless. Last week I covered his cutesy attempt at fanning the flames of his Islamophobic followers fanatical anti-Muslim hate.

Now Bell is at it again, the chicken hawk wants the US military to hover over the Ka’ba and remove it.

Bell, having taken notice of the fact that his deluded hate-mongering is well known, gives his followers an empty warning, telling them to be careful of what hate they say because evil Obama-Mooslim-Brotherhood-Hamas-AlQaeda-linked-CAIR is watching:

Clearly Bell doesn’t know the meaning of “contradiction.”

As hollow a disclaimer as you will ever read, Bell who is extra-vigilante to ban those who oppose his hate goes ahead and leaves comments such as these up from Kim Bruce:

or James Garner:

You can check the thread out yourself and see all the other calls for nuking and killing, it would take a long time for us to load all of the screenshots.

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Open Thread Sunday: JihadWatch Zombie Eric Allen Bell Curious About the “Pros” and “Cons” of Nukin’ Mecca

"Can I haz cheeeezeburger?"

Every now and then an anti-Muslim Islamophobe wonders about the exigency of nuking Mecca and or Medina when he really means to want to destroy the sacred cities. To destroy Mecca and Medina has been an ardent desire of Islamophobes for centuries, harking back to at least the Crusades, if not earlier.

In a recent manifestation of such desire we have Jihadwatch zombie Eric Allen Bell (aka Eric Edborg) masking a call to nuke Mecca in a “question.” Who actually wonders about the “pros” and “cons” of “nuking Mecca” except someone who actually wants to do it?

Notice the lovely responses from those in Bell’s little echo chamber of hate. Bell didn’t repudiate any of these gung-ho nuke Mecca advocates. Most people responded by either saying such a move would not be practical or in fact coming to realize that Bell had gone “too far this time.” Many of these comments were deleted by Bell.

A significant chunk of comments actually looked something like the following however:

It seems clear to me that Bell has always had some sort of deep seated hatred and antipathy towards the “other.” One doesn’t wake up suddenly and ponder the merits of nuking the holy city of one of the oldest and largest religions in the world unless there is something deeply wrong with you.

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    • Garibaldi

      This “open thread” has degenerated.

    • Just Stopping By

      @Garibaldi: I understand that BA can be grating, but I think that the suggestion that he is bullying, and certainly to the degree that he might be banned, is a bit much.

      While I recognize that BA can be annoyingly persistent and likes to think that once he presents his/her view, that view should be treated as if it has been proven to be the correct one, I think that those flaws pale beside what else we see here. And by here, I mean that I believe that you have noted much more strident bullying in this very thread, snipped someone in another thread today, and I believe that I saw a comment apparently endorsing genocide posted and then deleted a few hours ago on yet another thread. Compared to that, saying that someone is misrepresenting facts seems quite mild.

      I found a poster who addressed me recently but who I thought was rude, ignorant, and biased. So, I ignored the person. That seemed to work quite well. I suggest that that is a much better response than arguing about bullying.

    • Garibaldi

      With the above said, I don’t hope I came off as too harsh or anything.

      I generally appreciate BA, he has given us valuable tips in the past, and though I disagree with some of his positions and the way he puts them forward, I do hope we can be agreeably disagreeable, though this hasn’t been the case always or at least recently it seems.

    • Garibaldi

      @JSB, I actually edited my comment before viewing yours, but I will point out that I never indicated that BA is the only one who has done this. All of us likely stand accused of such a thing at one point or another. Also as I wrote in the last comment I believe that none of us come from some completely objective view, but the difference is that some actually admit to this while others don’t.

      Lastly, Ilisha, from what I can read here doesn’t have any qualms with truly debating BA except that it seems to be a fruitless endeavor, mostly to do with nitpicking little details that are then described as “mischaracterizations” with other loaded language accompanying such claims. I can sympathize with that, she doesn’t want to waste her time.

  • Just Stopping By

    @Ilisha, BA, Garibaldi: Is this a private dispute, or can anyone join in?

Sheila Musaji: Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer Discover “fireworks jihad”

Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer discover “fireworks jihad”

by Sheila Musaji (The American Muslim)

Some individuals like Pamela Geller are so anxious to find anything at all that is negative about Islam or Muslims that they are willing to pass on any unsubstantiated rumor from anywhere as “proof” that Muslims are evil.  Geller’s professed “love” for Muslims is expressed as pathological hatred.

Geller posted an article Sharia in Colorado: Special accommodations for a special class, Muslims.  She said

Once again we see special rules for Muslims in accordance with the sharia and Islamic supremacism. Anywhere American law and Islamic law conflict, it is American law that has to give way. Check this out from Atlas reader Chris:

Very few are talking about it here in Denver Colorado. American citizens were banned from celebrating our national birthday the Fourth of July. Fireworks were and are still banned unless it was to celebrate the end of Ramadan. I have asked several police officers what the huge fireworks show was and they replied that it was the local Islamic center celebrating. I then asked if the statewide ban on fireworks was still in effect and they said yes. So logically I asked did they have a permit for such a large display. The answer was no and that the police were not to respond to calls about it.

Robert Spencer (the self proclaimed “acclaimed scholar of Islam”) posted the same article with the same dubious source with the longer title Sharia in action in Colorado: Muslims set off fireworks in defiance of ban, police told to ignore complaints and the introduction “A statewide ban on fireworks is not a statewide ban on fireworks when Muslims are setting them off. To enforce the ban would be “Islamophobic,” doncha know.”

Actually, no one is talking about it except Geller and the sites that picked up this non-story from her.  The only source for the story is some guy named Chris who posted a comment on her site.

If she had done just a little fact checking, she would have discovered first, that no one else other than her reader, Chris, had reported on this supposed story, and also that on July 9th Gov. John Hickenlooper had lifted the Colorado fire ban and more than 60 Colorado counties moved to moderate to low fire danger.

Geller, Spencer, and the rest of the Islamophobia echo chamber are stark raving mad!  They see Jihad everywhere and in almost all cases it doesn’t exist except in their fevered Islamophobic brains.  Here are just a few ridiculous claims about nonsensical Muslim plots:

An Eid Celebration for Muslim Special Needs Kids was described as a “stealth jihad”.   A children’s page in a newspaper focusing on Eid was described as a toxic propaganda plot.  Joel Hinrichs (a Christian) had a beard and had walked through the parking lot of a campus mosque thus proving that his crime was an example of sudden jihad syndrome.   The awful April 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech by a Korean student was also called Islamic jihad because Cho’s father had once worked in Saudi Arabia (before he was married and before Cho was born).  A Muslim doctor had a heart attack and died at the wheel of his car which then crashed into a shopping mall and this was described as “vehicular jihad”.   A Muslim cab driver objected to what he considered pornographic ads on the roof of his cab, and that became astealth-jihad plot to impose Sharia on America.  Any Muslim who has sued an employer for violation of their rights under the EEOC is engaged in employment jihad, or litigation jihad.  Muslim environmentalists are said to be actually engaged in “civilizational jihad”.  A cartoon series “The 99” aimed at young Muslims was described as “cultural jihad”.  The victims of the terrorist attack of 9/11 included Muslims, they were accused of dying as martyrs in an act of jihad.

The Islamophobes have uncovered countless examples of false and “shocking” Muslim jihad plots.  They have uncovered:  bumper sticker jihad,  Thanksgiving turkey jihad, an incrediblepaisley scarf jihadmarriage to important men jihadspit jihadfashion jihadspelling bee jihadrape jihad,  defacing dollar bills jihad,   population jihadcreeping Sharia jihad,  mosque building jihadterror baby jihad“creeping Sharia” jihad,  pedophilia jihad,  bus driver prayer jihadforehead bruise jihadpostage stamp jihadsoup jihad,  banning alcohol jihad,fake hate crimes jihadpiggy bank jihad,  tv reality series jihadhandshake jihadprom jihad,interfaith jihadArabic language jihad,  public school jihadreligious accommodation jihad,Crescent moon jihadChristmas tree tax jihadoath of office jihadimmigration jihad,community fundraiser jihad.  Christina Abraham (a Muslim) has a name that is not recognizably Muslim enough and so we have stealth name jihad.

There is a reason that many, even outside of the Muslim community see such demonization of Muslims as Islamophobic.  There is a reason that the ADL has stated that Brigitte Gabriel’s Act for America, Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer’s Stop the Islamization of America (SIOA), David Yerushalmi’s Society of Americans for National Existence (SANE)  are “groups that promote an extreme anti-Muslim agenda”.  There is a reason that The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated SIOA as a hate group, and that they are featured in the SPLC reports Jihad Against Islam and The Anti-Muslim Inner Circle.  There is a reason that Geller and Spencer are featured prominently in the Center for American Progress “Fear Inc.” report on the Islamophobia network in America.  There is a reason that Geller is featured in the People for the American Way Right Wing Playbook on Anti-Muslim Extremism.  There is a reason that Geller is featured in the NYCLU reportReligious Freedom Under Attack:  The Rise of Anti-Mosque Activities in New York State.  There is a reason that Geller is featured in the Political Research Associates report Manufacturing the Muslim menace: Private firms, public servants, and the threat to rights and security.  There is a reason that the SIOA’s trademark patent was denied by the U.S. government due to its anti-Muslim nature.  There is a reason that they are featured (with extensive backgrounder articles) in our TAM Who’s Who of the Anti-Muslim/Anti-Arab/Islamophobia Industry.  There is a reason that these individuals are featured in just about every legitimate report on Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hatred.

These people consistently promote the what everyone “knows” lies about Islam and Muslims.   They generalize specific incidents to reflect on all Muslims or all of Islam.   When they are caught in the act of making up or distorting claims they engage in devious methods to attempt to conceal the evidence.

The claim that “truth tellers” are being accused of Islamophobia for no reason other than their legitimate concerns about real issues and that in fact there is not even such a thing as Islamophobia is nonsense.

The reason that this is so obvious to so many is that rational people can tell the difference between legitimate concerns and bigoted stereotypes.   The Islamophobia of these folks is very real, and it isalso strikingly similar to a previous generations’ anti-Semitism.

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    • zangi

      What is the source of this information? Any news clip from any reputable source? Or is is just from Chris of Atlas Shrug? I live in Colorado and to the best of my knowledge none had any fireworks planned. So looks like readers of loony websites are also loony. They live in make believe world!

    • @rookie

      You wrote, ——————————————————————————————- Breivik?

      He will spend next 20 yrs in prison – writing books.

      He will become millionaire.

      After 20 years he will get out of prison and ground a political party…

      Someone continue…

      ——————————————————————————————-

      If you’re imagining he’s going to go the Hitler route, that’s only the worst case scenario. Besides its not very likely. Even the overwhelming majority of other Islamophobes tried desperately to distance themselves from him, after he went on his Killing spree. A Brevik candidacy and a political party run by him, would be fiercely opposed, especially by the families of his victims.

      Also, if Hitler had spent twenty one years behind bars after the Beer Hall Putsch, instead of just a little over a year after he was convicted. The conditions that lead to ascension of the Nazi party and his rise to power, might have changed dramatically. Not mention that it would have been much harder for him to use it as a propaganda tool, and people might even have forgotten all about him.

      Beer Hall Putsch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch

    • Solid Snake

      @rookie

      He will tour Europe and the US being paid by right wingers all over the world. At that point the jig will be up, their facade of being against murder and extremism will drop and they will openly embrace violence. Breivek will prove that they can and have beaten the system. His speech will be protected and soon his party will grow.

      As his message and party gains momentum, more moderate people will turn to their local right wing parties.

      Events will heat up in the Middle East as the foreign policy between conservative Right wingers and liberal left wingers begins to blur.

      Pretty soon we will be hearing Anti-Muslim rhetoric from both sides of the isle louder than ever.

      Islamophobes will commit crimes against Muslims only to have Islamophobic lawyers represent them pro bono in front of Islamophobic judges.

      The precedents have been set, first the stabbing and killing of Marwa Sherbini in the court room in front of judges and police officers. and now Breiveks case.

      And then it takes one misguided, lonely, scared, and desperate Muslim to attempt to kill Breivek while he is on one of his tours. as we said one of their goals is to troll for assassins. Whether this assassin succeeds or fails he will have sent the world spiraling downwards into what possibly could be another global conflict.

      From there it only gets worse for Muslims and their allies…..I mean i hope it doesn’t happen but the way it looks I wont be shocked if he is deemed safe to return to society in 20 years.

    • rookie

      Breivik?

      He will spend next 20 yrs in prison – writing books.

      He will become millionaire.

      After 20 years he will get out of prison and ground a political party…

      Someone continue…

    • Jai

      “Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer discover “fireworks jihad”

      As I mentioned on another thread a few days ago, I wonder how long it’ll take for Geller & Spencer to notice that a disproportionate number of India’s biggest movie stars are Muslims. I expect Geller & Spencer would call it “Bollywood Jihad”…..

    • Breviek will most likely spend the rest of his life in prison. Yes, he was only sentenced to 21 years which is the maximum sentence in Norway. Keep in mind that in Norway one can be kept in prison beyond their sentence if they are still seen as a threat to society, something which is highly likely for Breviek.

      Yes, being declared “criminally sane” should put all the crazy Loons on noticed that they too can and most likely will be declared sane by a court of law if they too commit hate-crimes, domestic acts of terrorism or any kind of terrorism.

      Being declared sane is good news and an opportunity to discuss how to deal safely with Loons and not just dismiss them as “crazy.”

    • Zakariya Ali Sher

      Breivik was found ‘sane,’ and sentenced to a mere 21 years because apparently, the Norwegian definitions of “humane” include not punishing criminals for acts like mass murder. Apparently, he has it quite nice too. Three cells, including a spa and a study, and he’s not in general population because the authorities fear for his life. A pity too because I was kind of hoping that he’d get shanked. Fortunately, he wasn’t allowed to rant about his “issues” that In Fidel wants to raise, but unfortunately, he apparently plans on publishing further manifestos from prison. Unless, like I said before, some brave Norwegian convict has the cobbles to shank him before he subjects the world to future indignities.

    • dreamdayz01

      In southern part of India, the “Love Jihad” danger is a favorite topic among right wing Nationalist (even after being dismissed by investigating authorities as hoax).

    • There is a difference between being “criminally insane” and a paronoid schizophrenic. Even schizophrenics, with their self-righteous claims of “truth telling” and illusions of grandness possessed with special gifts- they have a special calling to share the truth while proclaiming all others who disagree as “ignorant”- can be and often are criminally sane because they planned and new what they were doing.

      Breviek is criminally sane, not insane as In Fidel confidently predicted in his comment above. I guess some so-called truth tellers don’t always know the truth, do they Eric Allen Bell, In Fidel, GW, Steve and No Imaginary Friends Here?

    • truth

      Pam geller is a mad woman.I wonder if there is anything she truely loves in her life

    • Crow

      EPIC FAIL TROLL!! Brevik was found sane because the only issues he raised were important to venomous bigots and white supremists, the one issue that should have been raised and wasnt, was should brevik be shot or hung? As for geller, fat spencer, gabriel etc and their fans they are by nature moraless cowards

    • Inn Fidel

      Breveik will be found insane. Finding him sane would force Norway and Europe to face the issues he raises.

    • Sarah Brown

      This is very useful because Spencer does cover some true stories, and indeed some stories which *ought* to be covered – i.e. I assume he pounced on the one about the little girl accused of blasphemy. The fireworks story is a good example of one which is, not just ridiculously exaggerated/tendentiously worded, but simply untrue.

  • mindy1

    Yah know, I think if I took them to my shrink he would diagnose them with delusions of grandeur-thinking you are important when you are not

More Fairytales from Geller about the EDL’s Bristol Demonstration

Pamela Geller‘s defense of the EDL falls in the face of logic and facts–once again (Islamophobia-Watch):

More fairytales from Geller about the EDL’s Bristol demonstration

Having confidently predicted that “thousands” would be marching with the English Defence League yesterday to protest against the “Islamification of Bristol“, Pamela Geller has failed to explain why only a few hundred people turned out for what was advertised as a national mobilisation by the EDL.

Shifting her ground, she has now decided to emphasise the supposedly respectable, non-violent character of the EDL, reporting that they were “well-behaved” and “maintained a calm and peaceful assembly” during their Bristol protest (in contrast to their anti-fascist opponents, who Geller claims “trashed the city and assaulted police”).

However, as you can see from the above photograph (via the Press Association), it was only the weight of police numbers (officers had to be drafted in from as far away as Yorkshire to allow the deployment of a 1,000-strong riot control force) that prevented the EDL from attacking their opponents.

On their way home from the march, and without a police presence to restrain them, the EDL were free to indulge in their proclivity for drunken violence, as is illustrated by this Facebook comment (viaEDL News) from a witness who was, until then, an EDL supporter (and still shares their hatred of “scummy muslims”).

You can understand why Geller might want to cover up the violent nature of the EDL. She and her friend Robert Spencer are jointly launching a “worldwide counter-jihad alliance” with this gang of drunken thugs in Stockholm next month.

And we’re still waiting for Geller and Spencer to explain their support for an organisation that recently carried out an attack on a peaceful anti-monarchist protest in co-operation with the neo-Nazi, white supremacist and antisemitic National Front.

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    • Sam Seed

      @Critical, The Pamela Geller Blog Generator.

      That was really funny!

    • Jai

      This is the BBC News article about the EDL’s Bristol demonstration: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-18828908

      Full article:

      Fourteen arrests and missiles thrown during Bristol demo

      Missiles have been thrown and 14 people arrested during two demonstrations in Bristol.

      Some 300 supporters of the English Defence League (EDL) marched from Redcliffe Wharf to Queen Square.

      A counter demonstration at the same time by We are Bristol took place at Castle Park.

      Avon and Somerset Police said “some missiles have been thrown” but they were now scaling back their operation as demonstrators returned home.

      On Twitter the force said it had responded to missiles being thrown and it had been “working to calm things down”.

      The violence broke out after both rallies had finished.

      The routes of both marches had been pre-planned to ensure demonstrators were kept apart.

      “Rubbish bins were overturned and set on fire, lumps of concrete were ripped off the wall and thrown at the police,” BBC reporter Nigel Dando at the scene said.

      He added that a group of people in Victoria Street had tried to charge police lines and that about 60 police in full riot gear had been at the scene.

      “There is a bit of standoff at the roundabout between Victoria Street and Redcliffe Way as the EDL supporters attempted to get to Temple Meads but police have stopped them at the moment,” he said.

      Fourteen arrests were made for alleged offences including a racially aggravated public order offence, refusal to remove face coverings after being asked to do so by police, assaulting a police officer and unlawful assembly.

      All those arrested remain in custody, Avon and Somerset Police said.

      It had drafted in officers from other police forces and there were about 1,000 officers on duty.

      Avon and Somerset Police said it would facilitate peaceful protests, but would tackle anyone who became involved in violence or disorder.

      A separate and unrelated march organised by the city’s gay community set off from Berkeley Square at 11:00 BST.

      The colourful procession snaked down Park Street to College Green for the Pride festival.”

      The Huffington Post also has a detailed article about the EDL’s demonstration in Bristol, including multiple photographs of EDL members and the police during the demonstration: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/07/14/english-defence-league-arrests-bristol_n_1673365.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

    • Sir David ( Illuminati membership number 5:32) Warning Contains Irony

      Chris said “I’m saying that I made myself a witness to see first hand”

      This really begs the question , er ….. Why ?

      I am sure the gay pride march was more colourful , entertaining and musical .

      Unless you are a supporter of the EDL ;-).

      I agree the BBC reports the truth about the EDL espicially the truth about there previous antics and the fact that a number of their members are currently inside jail contemplating the error of their violent ways .

      Sir David

    • Chris

      I’m saying that I made myself a witness to see first hand, which is why I know this article is lying.

      You can assume all you like, which appears to be all this site does.

      As for the images, it clearly says NF and was not part of the demonstration that happened in Bristol. For starters, that statue is not in Bristol, and if it was, it would of been all over the mainstream.

      Therefore, this article is nothing but a perversion of the truth and should not be considered newsworthy.

      As for the article it was attacking, it doesn’t matter. The truth was reported by Bristol’s local news and even by the BBC’s televised mainstream.

Sheila Musaji: Robert Spencer Uses 4th of July to Spread Islamophobia

Robert Spencer is lost

Spencer‘s always on the prowl to demean Muslims and spread Islamophobia (h/t: Critical Dragon):

Robert Spencer uses 4th of July to spread Islamophobia

by Sheila Musaji (The American Muslim)

Robert Spencer cannot let any opportunity go by to find a way to make a negative statement about Islam and Muslims.  Today, he used the occasion of the celebration of OUR nation’s Independence Day, the 4th of July to find a way to target American Muslims rather than to simply express his patriotism.

In his article, he lists four freedoms that “we” must defend.  In his commentary on what “we” must defend against, he uses only examples that he thinks represent Muslim attitudes at variance with the Constitution, and most of the examples he gives are from other countries, and from ancient texts.  According to the worldview Spencer is promoting, Muslims are anti-Constitution, anti-American, and untrustworthy and disloyal citizens.  It is clear that the “we” he refers to does not include Muslims.  He doesn’t mention any other individuals or groups who might pose a threat to our Constitution.  He also doesn’t mention any positive contributions of Muslims toward defending the Constitution and our freedoms.

Spencer only gives three references to American Muslims, and those in his first point.  Omar Ahmed, the individual accused of making one of the statements denies that he ever made this statement.  The supposed quote from the Muslim Brotherhood memorandum is questionable at best (see Muslim Brotherhood Document of the Muslim or Islamophobic Lunatic Fringe?).  The quote attributed to Ibrahim Hooper is not only out of context, but can be variously interpreted (see A response to Daniel Pipes’ allegations).

Here are the 4 freedoms Spencer mentions:

— 1. Freedom of religion, and non-establishment of religion.  “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” — First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution — 2. Freedom of speech “Congress shall make no law…abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press…” — First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution — 3. Equality of rights before the law “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” — Declaration of Independence — 4. Governments deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.  “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…” — Declaration of Independence

I would agree with him on the importance of these freedoms and many more (for example,habeas corpusthe rule of lawcivil rightssurveillance and profiling of citizens, etc.) and agree that all Americans must in every generation defend these freedoms from those who would undermine them.  American Muslims have strongly defended those freedoms:

1.  Freedom of religion, and non-establishment of religion.  American Muslim Academics/Scholars/Imams/Professionals issued a statement upholding the Freedom of Faith and the Freedom to Change one’s Faith.  And, many Muslims have spoken out about this issue.  See Apostasy and Freedom of Faith in Islam which includes a collection of articles.

2.  Freedom of speech.  American and Canadian Muslims issued a Defense of Freedom of Speech.  This statement specifically states that We uphold the First Amendment of the US Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Both protect freedom of religion and speech, because both protections are fundamental to defending minorities from the whims of the majority.

3. Equality of rights before the law, and 4. Governments deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. See below.

Read the rest…

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    • Sarah Brown

      That’s fair enough Ilisha – I have been arguing the same myself today!

      “Adrian – I think you, anyone, should be able to criticise Islam – to be Islamophobic indeed. I also think some strands of that criticism might reasonably be objected to by Muslims. I think they should, obviously, be able to articulate those objections. Then we can all make up our minds where we stand. It would be possible to agree that Islam is subjected to a lot of scrutiny, or make the kind of point I make in that comment I quote about people only focusing on the worst manifestations of Islam, without in any way wanting to censor such criticism of Islam.”

      And in both the instances I cite where I bore that piece by Danios in mind, I did so in a not unsympathetic spirit. Sometimes – and this is the same with some pieces I read about antisemitism – I may not quite agree, or not be sure whether I agree (there isn’t a litmus test) but do recognize that the concerns are sincerely felt and worth thinking about.

    • Sarah Brown

      Geji – well, I do wish you would comment to clear things up directly. Some of it is just anti-Islam (but do note that we have a couple of commenters who just can’t stand any religion) but some of it seems more genuinely challenging of some of the positions here maybe. I feel that, much of the time, I’m not so far away from ATL writers here, or if I don’t agree I see where they are coming from. For example, when I read the piece about Mona Eltahawy and Arab men I felt ambivalent as I felt that she should be able to say what she likes where she likes, and was raising some valid points. But I bore it in mind both when I posted about a pro-women march in Egypt (through emphasising in my post the presence of supportive men – that was where the piece here influenced me) and also when I posted about this piece about Alice Walker’s Israel boycott stuff –

      https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/alice-walkers-latest-bds-move/

      I quoted Danios as an interesting parallel. So – I’ll listen to you, but I listen to the people on HP as well and it gets hard to adjudicate when you don’t occupy the same spaces much.

    • Sam Seed

      @Mesa, this site is about fighting Islamophobia. Maybe you should ‘listen’ to what you write before making a judgment.

    • Géji

      @Sarah Brown: “It’s not premoderated and it’s very liberal”

      Sarah my dear, there’s nothing “liberal” about a free fall ignorant spewing, especially if there isn’t really substantial back up to stop the sinking, at the end all it does is just inevitably hit the floor. Some, if not most of those comments are just pretty appalling, it will take a whole lot of web to stop the chute.

    • Mesa

      Do you ever listen to yourselves speak? I have read your articles, responses, ideas, attitudes and wordings and it sounds worse than the rhetoric Spencer uses. Instead of looking to protest “Islamaphobia”, why not discuss the very many Muslim organizations? Give the names, addresses and positive outcomes from the very many American/Islamic demonstrations showing solidarity with OUR constitution! Perhaps then, more American Christians, Jews, Buddhists and others will be able to discuss the situation more intelligently.

    • Sarah Brown

      Yes, it is the same Adrian Morgan. I am not a fan of Spinwatch BTW. I don’t always agree with AM, and clearly the kind of profile you link to is going to pick out the most controversial pieces/incidents. But even though I – let alone you – don’t see eye to eye with him, that doesn’t itself invalidate any substantive points he might raise. He has actually argued extremely eloquently against anti-Muslim bigotry on many occasions, although I still accept he isn’t going to be your cup of tea!

      I am sorry you find some comments offensive – yes, I shouldn’t have given the impression that anything offensive, which is a subjective term, is deleted. I wish you would point out anything wrong, I mean factually wrong – either mention it here or there – the commenters who were more hostile to my post are also probably those most immersed in the issues, so it’s hard to get a complete picture.

    • Sarah Brown

      @Garibaldi – It’s not premoderated and it’s very liberal. Really offensive – say racist – comments are deleted. Unfortunately I don’t know enough about the specifics of Islam/Muslims in the US, so it has been difficult to know how to respond to some of the criticisms of Musaji.

    • Garibaldi

      @Sarah,

      You’re welcome.

      That’s a real interesting discussion that has ensued, is it a completely free comment policy at Harry’s Place?

    • Given the choice between the Muslim Brotherhood and a military party, I think Egyptians made the right choice. I just hope my country, the United States, backs off and allows Egypt to find it own way in its own democracy.

      This business that democracy and Islam are not compatable is nonsense. Iran had a democracy in the early 1950s. Unfortunately, England and the United States couldn’t stand the decisions being made in democratic Iran, i.e., the decision to own its own oil, and they, England & the U.S. staged an assassination and the return of authoritarian rule.

      I have this wish of my country regarding all other countries in the world: back off, let them be, and take care of your own backyard.

    • Garibaldi

      @Sarah, where was this question posed, and by who?

      We don’t have an official stance on the Muslim Brotherhood. Most of the articles about the MB on Loonwatch discuss the pervading myths in the West, especially in the USA, that somehow the MB is infiltrating and taking over not only our government but our societies, that they are using taqiyyah, stealth jihad, etc. to do so.

      I don’t see a theocratic totalitarian threat from the MB’s political party FJP. The FJP’s positions and statements have all been aligned towards embracing and affirming Republican and Democratic values/processes. As Islamic scholar Khaled Abou Fadl said recently in an interview with the Huffington Post that we re-posted,

      What you’re going to see is a lot of tension and friction forcing the Ikhwan (MB) to distinguish themselves from the Wahhabi and Salafi types. I think they’re going to draw closer to the model of [Tunisia’s] Ghannoushi and the Islamist party in Turkey. Among the Ikhwan themselves, no one is in any mood to talk about whether music is halal or haram, or whether women should be banned from this or that, or all that social stuff, while the Jama’a al-Islamiya (Wahhabist) are fantasizing about it. And I think there’s going to be a lot of friction, and ultimately the Ikhwan are going to be forced away from the Wahhabis. It’s very difficult to work with the Wahhabis or live with the Wahhabis long term, because they lack flexibility in their thought.

      Another positive indicator in terms of political Islam. I personally was surprised in this whole process how very few Egyptians even contemplated the idea of living in a state resembling the Iranian or Saudi model. Even those who voted for the Ikhwan believe that personal piety might make people less corrupt, but I haven’t encountered any substantial numbers who say, “We vote for the Ikhwan because they will rule in the name of God and apply God’s law, which is infallible.” I definitely think this whole experience in Tunisia, and Egypt, and Syria is a return to authenticity in the sense that no one is denying their Islamic identity. But at the same time they are re-structuring that identity in a way that is entirely consistent with ideas of democracy. It’s remarkable to me how many mosques I attended in Egypt where the sheikh would say, “God has given you the right to decide who will rule you, and no one can take that away.” That has to be positive. It’s very different from the years I spent in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, where all you’re told is basically that you have to obey the ruler if he beats you or oppresses you. It’s a really different discourse, so yeah I’m optimistic.

      I think the real issue is the military and foreign intervention. That’s quite clear. This is not the first constitutional awakening in this part of the world. There have been several in the past, and some quite enlightened ideas, and every time foreign intervention aborts the project. But I think it’s not going to be at all easy, because of the level of education and because of the modern means of exchanging information, which provide multiple sources so that no one relies on state TV. It’s not going to be easy to just control and steer people as happened in the past.

      https://www.loonwatch.com/2012/07/islamic-scholar-khaled-abou-el-fadl-discusses-the-struggle-to-control-egypt/

      It goes without saying that criticism directed against the MB is something that is NECESSARY and should be completely welcome, it does not translate into anti-Muslim hatred, duh! Isn’t that obvious?

      In the past I have commented that I do view the MB’s rise with trepidation, but I agree with Fadl that there are more positive indicators than bad.

    • Sarah Brown

      I hope you don’t mind if I pass on a question from someone which stemmed, indirectly, from Sheila Musaji’s post.

      “Does Loonwatch regard the Muslim Brotherhood as a problematic and theocratic totalitarian organisation?

      Or does it take the view that the Muslim Brotherhood is a benign organisation which is unjustly maligned, and that even specific directed criticism against the party and particular activists is essentially anti-Muslim hatred?”

      Of course different people will probably have different answers.

    • marco

      They talk freedom only for themselves, yet at the same time seek to restrict the freedom of anyone they disagree with.

    • Sir David Illuminati membership number 16.69

      I think you are being really hard on the poor guy . I mean his employers made him work on a national holiday . Its no wonder he turns out such shoddy material. I think we should campaign for better pay for Spencer. Then maybe he could afford some decent clothes , get a real girl friend insted of having to hang around with deranged millionaresses and may be just may be write a book that would be worth reading .

      Sir David Leftwing mooslim Alliance West Anjou Branch

      Note We are still collecting Funds for the Free Sarko Fund , So far we have collected a staggering 0.14€

    • Sarah Brown

      I thought this was a really good post.

    • moosern

      The interesting thing about the Constitution is that there were many Christian pastors that were against it, as it did not create a Christian nation or give Christianity dominion over other faiths. And Mr. Spencer’s religion was outlawed in most of the US before the Constitution.

    • Yes, Robert Spencer is a very sad figure. But let us remember that one of our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, who also died on the Forth of July, had his very own copy of the Quran.

    • @mindy1

      He’s done this before actually. This not the first fourth of July Spencer has used to spread promote his message. I think the Jihad Watch commentary that Sheila is refuting is an old one that Spencer simply re-posted again this year.

  • mindy1

    Sad that he cannot even celebrate a holiday without hate

Nachum Shifren: Racist Rabbi Still Trying to Run For Senate Seat

Nachum Shifren is still trying to run for senate. He thinks “White Americans” like “him” are under assault by everyone else. In the past we exposed Shifren for being the racist and hate-monger he is in our article, Rabbi Nachum Shifren: Rides the Wave of Islamophobia and Rabbi Nachum Shifren: EDL is the Salvation of the West from the “Muslim Dogs”.

I am not even sure if Shifren is still a Jew, how can he say this and remain a Jew, perhaps he is a “self-hating” Jew?:

… I AM an Islamophobe, and everything we need to know about Islam, we learned on 9-11! I believe in peace and justice for everybody – but that’s not why they’re here…. We’re getting sucker-punched because we as white – yes I said it! – as white, Christian Americans are being taught that somehow WE are to blame for all the problems.

Clearly he didn’t mean to say that he is a “Christian,” maybe he forgot to add the “Judeo” part?

Also see Richard Silverstein’s take: California Tea Party “White Christian” Settler Rabbi for US Senate

California: EDL-supporting Senate candidate claims to defend ‘white Americans’ against threat of Islam

San Mateo, CA — In the US Senate primary in California on June 5th, where 23 candidates vie to challenge Senator Dianne Feinstein in November, conservative candidates were recorded on videoverbally attacking teachers, Muslims, and minority groups to excite their base at GOP and Tea Party venues.

The video was recorded at a “Get to Know Your Candidates” event hosted by the San Mateo GOP at the American Legion Hall here. Dr. David Levitt, the candidate who recorded the event, reports unmasked homophobia, Islamophobia, and racism in the Republicans’ speeches.

In the video Republican candidate Rabbi Shifren cries, “… I AM an Islamophobe, and everything we need to know about Islam, we learned on 9-11! I believe in peace and justice for everybody – but that’s not why they’re here…. We’re getting sucker-punched because we as white – yes I said it! – as white, Christian Americans are being taught that somehow WE are to blame for all the problems.”

PRWeb, 14 May 2012

In October 2010 Nachum Shifren visited the UK to express his solidarity with the English Defence League, joining them for ademonstration in support of Israel and against “Islamic fascism” at which he was the main speaker. Fired up by Shifren’s Islamophobic rhetoric – he described Muslims as “dogs” who were trying to “take over our countries” – three EDL members attacked an Islamic literature stall and were later convicted of public order offences, with one of them receiving a seven-day prison sentence and a five-year CRASBO.

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    • Political science pro

      Interestingly enough, the Ibn Saud clan has used the Wahabi interpretation of the Quran to do exactly that. Even in the days of the Prophet, it was never re-named “Mohamed’s Arabia.”

    • HGG

      “Also, I wouldn’t necessarily describe Loonwatch as leftist. We share a mission, but we don’t all come from the same vantage point.”

      The Left Wing/Right Wing dichotomy is often useless in the grand scheme of things because of its relativity. Obama, for example, is known to some in the US as a Marxist-Socialist- Communist. to the left of Chairman Mao, while in many other parts of the world, he would be Center-Right politician at most.

      But, from an American perspective, yeah, I would say Loonwatch, according to their frame of reference, it’s a pretty Leftist site.

    • HGG

      “a fictitious book (bible) that was written by racist, sexist, genocidal men thousands of years ago.”

      This certainly raises the level of discourse about the subject.

    • JT

      Tom, you’re talking nonsense. According to the Qur’an, the mass killing of men, women and children was never even ordered by God. From a Qur’anic point of view, the violent details of the war as described in the OT never happened. Take a look at the verses Illisha has provided.

      BTW, the command to not kill peaceful people, or women and children is not something I have cooked up. It’s true. All references to war in the Qur’an refer only to when you have been attacked first and even then if the other side offers a peace treaty you have to accept it. In the Hadith of the Prophet, we find him numerous times telling the Muslims to not harm non-combatants, women, children, monks, livestock, trees etc. when fighting a war.

      “Now you are using the Koran to bash non Muslims.”

      What?! Explain, please.

    • IlanReiber quit with the BS trolling. No where in the Quran does it say Muslims and non-Muslims are not allowed into Mecca and Medina, that opinion is taken from the hadith which you are unfamiliar with. The Quran only states that the polytheists should not be allowed near the holy sanctuary in Mecca.

      Hopefully God is not a real estate agent who deeds people land through slaughter. Obviously, you believe, though I think many Jews would disagree with you that God is a real estate agent, and that it is OK to exterminate, disposes and expel Palestinians of their land. Then you justify it and say well Saudis do it too.

      Interesting diversionary attempt to derail this thread, but not going to fly.

    • IlanReiber

      Ilisha, Ilisha, I did not mention Saudi Arabia. I said Mecca. Medina. Yes, apologies, I misquoted you. I meant ‘real estate guide’. You use your ‘real estate’ guide to keep Mecca and Medina only for yourselves. Please do not dance around the issue. Israel is Holy land. Non Moslems were expelled or murdered from Mecca and Medina. Unless you are calling for a democracy in Mecca and Medina where Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists can build their houses of prayer, you have no right to inist G-d is not a real estate agent. You cannot practice religious apartheid in your holy land (Allah is a real estate agent then?)and then insist Israel does not in her Holy land.

      It’s hypocricy. It states, my God is a real estate agent but yours is not.

    • IlanReiber

      Ilisha, reading the above dialogue between you and Tom, if you reject using any Book as a religous guide, does it mean you call for a democracy in Mecca? Medina? The orders to exterminate the idolators in Canaan, came from G-d. Does the Koran condemn the Israelis for this genocide?

      Israel is real estate for Jews from G-d. It doesn’t matter if others do not believe that, because when the exile ends the nations will recognise Israel as a reborn nation. That has already happened. G-d is indeed a real estate agent.

      Does Torah Promote Genocide?

      http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/850235/jewish/Does-Torah-Promote-Genocide.htm

      For example, this issue we have of destroying the Canaanites: In that era of city-states continually locked at war with one another, a pacifist stance–even a non-aggressive one–would be tribal suicide. Land belonged to those that conquered it and stood closely at guard to protect their conquest. The world had not yet evolved to a state where nations could appreciate peace as a value; indeed it did not for another three millennium with the advent of the League of Nations–and even then we know how sincere that turned out to be. So Torah had to teach a people how to value life and human dignity while living in a savage world.

      And then, at a later date, those laws no longer applied. Even before Hellenism inundated and homogenized all the cultures and tribes of the Mediterranean, Sancherib the Assyrian conqueror had forcefully broken those tribes apart, moving peoples from their places into foreign lands where they were quickly assimilated and disappeared. When they returned from the Babylonian exile, the Children of Israel were no longer commanded to destroy the populous of the land–since those people no longer existed. Persia had moved the world from a collection of city-states bullying one another to a competition of true empires, and so that application was no longer relevant. But what then became of the instruction of an eternal Torah that gave that command?

      Ingeniously: it became internalized. The seven nations of Canaan became seven elements of human character, such as lust, anger and haughtiness that must be eradicated from within each one of us if our bodies are to become a holy land in which a temple may be built and G-d may dwell. The nation of Amalek became the cold, intransigent sense of “I am” that lies at the core of all evil. Instead of war upon nations around us, we are enjoined to make war at the evil within–by the same Torah, with the same words.

      Now you will understand why Jewish people never study the text of the Torah without the glosses and commentaries our people have accumulated through the ages.

    • Sarah Brown

      Thanks Nur Alia – I think it is possible to think that nothing justifies those murders and yet still agree that it’s fair to point out that not knowing the full story could be an issue, just as it would be the other way around.

    • Tom

      JT

      Now you are using the Koran to bash non Muslims. What does what you say have to do with what I said? Allah was talking to Mohammed according to the Koran, not to Jews.

      The Koran condems the Jews for worshipping the calf (idol worship) which it also tells Muslims not to do. From this one can deduce neither Allah nor Yahwah wanted idol worship.

      The killing of non combatants in the land is something you cooked up. If Allah said that to the Muslims he did not condemn the Jews for the genocide in the Old Testament, which existed at the time the Koran was said to be revealed to Mohammed. Why didn’t Allah condemn that if you think it is wrong? You assume they were non combatants? Why does the Koran say Allah punished the Jews for being too cowardly to fight? They were punished from entering for a number of years, 30 or 40 I believe. You cannot pretend that they were non combatants just because you choose to, when your Book doesn’t support it.

      As I said, liberals cannot see they’re useful idiots.

    • JT

      “Silence is complicity.”

      Except that Islam explicitly forbids the killing of non-combatants. Using the Old Testament to bash Muslims is a bit stupid. A lot of people are content with mining just the Qur’an and Hadith to find material to use against Muslims, but you’ve clearly thought outside the box.

    • Tom

      ASPIE AND ATHEIST

      You are committing a fallacy by comparing Saudi Arabia and Israel etc.

      I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Long before Saudi Arabia came into being there was religious apartheid in ‘Saudi Arabia’. I did not mention Saudi Arabia, I mentioned Muslim Mecca and Muslim Medina.Israel was a theocracy when Jews controlled it. God did not mean for it to be a ‘democracy’ as we understand democracy.

      I wasn’t comparing, perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. The UN comprises how many Muslim countries who decry Israel for apartheid? That is couble standard here is that they won’t call for their own religious land to be a ‘democracy’. From that viewpoint, Israel is justified in being Jewish if she ever decides to do away with a ‘democracy’ and Muslim states cannot do anything about it, moreover they should laud Israe for not doing what they did, namely, expelling their non Jewish citizens.

      As for your calling Moses sexist, genocidal, well that is true but it was God who ordered it, and since in the Koranic allah doesn’t condemn the genocide in the Old Testament. Silence is complicity. If you note the Koranic Allah doesn’t condemn Jews for the genocide of the native Canaanatie but it does condemn them for other things like worshipping a calf. This means Muslims cannot complain of a Jewish Israel if the Israelis decide to have one, since the Koran itself claims they were punished for not being Jewish enough. Do you note how such countries are not above using liberals and democratic countries to serve their own agendas, but do not hold their own to liberal values. The liberal left are useful idiots here. They cannot see they are merely being used.

      A country decides it’s own future.

    • Glenn

      It is interesting how distorted this has become MyLiberty provided a forum for all candidates to speak along with the Rabi were other unpalatable candidates such as the woman from the Peace and Freedom party esposing socialisim and then of course there was Mr Levitt who was espousing Marxisim Hardly Tea Party supported candidates. This video goes a long way in the misrepresentation of what transpired that evening.

    • Arab Atheist – ملحد عربي

      @Aspie and Atheist You said: (bible)…was written by racist, sexist, genocidal men thousands of years ago.

      Certainly there are disturbing parts in the bible (OT & NT), just like there are some in the Quran too. But you suggest that those who wrote those texts are evil. While some of their teachings should be completely unacceptable modern day, I doubt that those reformers were exceptionally or essentially racist or violent. However, your over-confident tone seems to indicate that the bible was exceptionally violent. My understanding is that when the bible was revealed, bigotry (racial, tribal, and religious) was the norm (terrible as it may be).

      Religion, no matter how much I disagree with it, is much more complicated than the way you described it (religion = evil). However, like you said, it shouldn’t be used as an excuse to justify modern day injustices anyway, as we see done by Israel.

    • Aspie and Atheist

      @Nur Alia

      I completely agree with you. Israel is not a victim, rather it is the aggressor. It is a state founded on a mandate found in a fictitious book (bible) that was written by racist, sexist, genocidal men thousands of years ago.

    • Aspie and Atheist

      @Tom

      Israel shouldn’t be a Jewish state. It has to treat all it’s citizens equally, not just the Jewish ones.

    • Aspie and Atheist

      @Tom

      You are committing a fallacy by comparing Saudi Arabia and Israel etc.

      The discussion was on Israel, so don’t try to change the topic by comparing to Saudi Arabia, as it still does not justify the pathetic ‘Israel is/needs to be a Jewish state’ argument.

      Since Israel as a Jewish state obviously cannot guarantee it’s non-Jewish citizens equality, then obviously Israel cannot be a Jewish state and therefore should adopt democracy and the doctrine of being separate from religion.

    • Aspie and Atheist

      Maybe this racist asshole should take his good ‘ol fashioned white folk ideology and shove it up his ass, [snipped]

    • Nur Alia

      @sarah

      You posted this as a response to my comment…

      “…Nur Alia – do you mean you get the sense, from the Western media, that the Israelis are the victims? The UK media’s a bit different maybe …. ‘Both sides are not being helpful in resolving it’ sounds about right…”

      We get some western media here in Malaysia. When you compare it to the Chinese media (the one I read for news most often) you get a sence that the west ‘favors’ Israel over the Palistinians by not reporting what escalated a certian incident.

      For example…I read one day that an Israeli soldier was found not guilty for what was decribed by witnesses as him emptying his weapon into a girl who had…while playing with friends…wondered into some forbidden zone by accident. The next day, in the same spot 5 illegal settlers, including a pregnant woman was murdered in a car. The western media never reported the first crime…and after the second crime happened, Obama condemned it, and it was first page news in the western media as if it was some ‘random attack’.

      Now, for the record, I always condemn the murder of ANY innocent people. I never take any side in this. Murder is not political, or religious, it is plain evil…so I am not justifying anything here…and dont imply, or accuse me of doing it.

      This is an example of what I mean. In the west, the Israelis are the victims’, and in reality one murder is never rectified by another as we see in this incident.

    • Tom

      Arab Atheist

      Be that as it may, it makes no sense for Muslim anti semites of all people to whinge about a ‘Jewish Israel’ (i’ll take that from an atheist or a liberal since they don’t like religion) when they have Muslim Mecca and Muslim Medina. If they deglitimise Israel by saying it shouldn’t be Jewish, well then why isn’t the left wing, decrying religious apartheid in Mecca and Midina? You’ve seen the hugh signs banning infidels (including Christians and Jews who are supposedly ‘book people’)

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